FreddyBak, regarding your response to my post, I actually agree with you and I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I brought up the coverage of ethnic violence in Western Europe in response the insinuation in some of the earlier posts that Russia is somehow unfairly targeted in the news media, that the media ignores this sort of thing when it happens in the West. I was saying I find that claim ridiculous, I’m constantly reading articles about far-right parties and nationalist groups in Western Europe.
Brandon, that makes sense – apologies. There’s definitely no shortage of coverage in Western hate groups. I guess what I was getting at is even if coverage of Russian hate groups was disproportionate compared to coverage Western hate groups, such disproportionality would be justified on the merits because of the things I mention in my above posts.
You forget that when you discuss blacks in the USA it means like 40 million people. But when you talk about blacks in Russia, it means no more than like 10 thousand.
There are other social groups of such scale, who are in worse situation and need social care. For example, Liquidators of the Chernobyl disasters — about 800,000 disaster-remediation workers who got their doses of radiation in 1986. They often need costly medical treatment, what makes them a very vulnerable social group.
Okey, if you aren’t discussing other countries and discuss only Russia, and if you actually care, why don’t you write about Liquidators?
I can propose answers:
1) You actually don’t care.
2) You are just following “blacks in Russia” story as a convenient political accusation.
Evgeny, this isn’t about blacks nor is it a conversation based on numbers of people. This is a discussion about the political climate as it relates to hate groups in Russia. That political climate is uniquely dangerous in Russia and affects all sorts of people, not just blacks. Dunno if you watched the video, but anyone who looks darker can be a victim, both according to reports and the perpetrators themsevels.
I’m not familiar with all of the details about the victims of Chernobyl, but I can only imagine that their case is still a tragedy. But this a matter of neglect and incompetence. It has very little to do with hatred or walking down the street on Hitler’s birthday.
Mazel tov, Evgeny, on demonstrating yet another hilarious example of whataboutism.
This is a childish and circular argument at best; more usually, the squeal of the exposed hypocrite.
I agree that this argument should not be used to deflect genuine criticism from Russia’s shortcomings. However, as soon as the focus shifts to scoring cheap political points – and that is the modus operandi of almost everyone accusing their opponents of whataboutism – using this rebuttal becomes fair game.
That is, you actually need to learn, while you [the Russian emigrants] often prefer to take several generally anti-Russian atricles for granted.
I can understand where does this stem from — the times of the radio “Freedom” when for certain circles the information broadcast by Americans was an undeniable truth.
Besides, Russians in the U.S. must be feeling a bit of foreign, so to adapt they may take the state propagadna at its worst as a sincere belief.
I’m sorry then. Now you are foreign for Russia too.
On the original subject, I always wonder how much the whole skinhead thing is just teen angst and not necessarily just about racism. Your standard teenage male has a whole lot of steam he needs to blow off to stay sane. For those that are not into sports and other more constructive outlets for violence, being in a gang of sorts can be enticing. It doesn’t matter if the gang is your conventional street gang, skinhead gang, ALF/ELF gang, soccer hool gang, etc. As far as I am concerned, they are all the same. To be honest, skinheads have a pretty decent uniform and they piss off the right people (middle to upper class whites on both sides of the political aisle). Probably why they have always had such an easy time infiltrating working class enclaves.
All the standard disclaimers apply to the above about not promoting/discounting anything, etc.)
Speaking of other gangs, soccer hools don’t really exist in the US, so I can’t say if it is just a Russian phenomenon, but I have noticed that soccer hools seem to be quite prevalent in Russia, at least in the provinces. Some time back, I used to do youtube searches on various Russian towns, to try to get a feel for what it was like in the provinces. Invariably, I would always run across some video of soccer hools from two different towns having a good, old-fashioned street brawl. First the chanting and waving of flags/banners, then the slow march towards each other, followed by a relatively quick melee. Very odd from an American perspective, like something from the book Outsiders. I guess I would be more weary running across these gangs, than skinheads as a foreigner, as I assume (erroneously?) that they are more prevalent.
This isn’t about soccer hools or about the Western media singling out Russia, this is a simple case of a culture that has a long way to go before it can be considered tolerant or, dare I say, civilized: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230158.stm
You know, I’ve actually always opposed Hate Crimes legislation here at home because I always envision any dispute turning into a race issue and I’d always considered the laws on the books generally sufficient. But the incident described in the article you just linked to kind of made me rethink that. If this type of stuff was rampant here, I’d be down for a little Hate Crimes legislation.
“On the original subject, I always wonder how much the whole skinhead thing is just teen angst and not necessarily just about racism.”
I think it’s a violent young male with nothing to do thing. If these guys were in the US inner city (and black), they would be in the bloods or crips. If they were in Afghanistan, they would be in the Taliban. If they were in Chechnya, they would be boitsy. In Congo, they would be in some war band. In Mexico, in some drug gang. In Norway, they would be, well, skinheads.
Ideology is completely secondary. It’s an excuse for violence.
I think it’s a violent young male with nothing to do thing.
I tend to agree except that all your examples: inner city, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Mexico and Congo are hardly stable environments. As for Norway, well I don’t know how you can compare. I would imagine that a lot of young guys with nothing to do there just sit in their rooms listening to Black metal. Skinheads exist in most Western countries and are increasing thanks to economic pressures and immigration, but in Russia they are growing at a faster rate and their attacks are more numerous. So I think there is something more at work that just guys having nothing to do. The issue is why some who have “nothing to do” gravitate to groups that embrace hatred and violence. To answer that we have to consider the environment in which they come from.
I also agree that ideology is secondary, but one of the most consistent things skinheads from every country say is that others live better at their expense. So unemployment, the lack of opportunity, etc tends to go hand in hand with skins. It is no surprise that most skins are working class since they are ones who must compete with immigrants for jobs. Racist and nationalist ideology has the ability to explain their condition. All a budding skin has to do is go outside and see a bunch of “darkies” and their worldview is confirmed. At some point ideology becomes reaffirming to the point where it and violence are indistinguishable as excuses. The perfect wedding of theory and praxis.
If skinhead groups work similar to other youth groups I’ve read about, then the process works like this: You join because many of your friends are in it. Or you join because they are willing to accept you. Once in that milieu you begin to adopt the worldview. Through peer pressure a youth is drawn in to act, whether they actually ascribe to all aspects of the ideology or not. When a bunch of your friends jump someone then you have to jump in too. The consequences for not jumping (ostracism, ridicule, alienation) in are worse that any moral anguish a youth might experience. In fact, there might not be any moral qualms at all since being part of the skinhead groups provides an alternative ethical code where jumping people is the moral thing to do.
Also, I think the fact that a lot of gang-like groups provide an alternative family/friend circle based on strong bonds and sense of solidarity is important.
When you finish your stupid dissertation and start thinking straight again, you’ll realize that whatever you said about skinheads is equally valid for the US black hoodlums.
“…one of the most consistent things US black hoodlums say is that others live better at their expense. So unemployment, the lack of opportunity, etc tends to go hand in hand with the US black hoodlums… All a budding US black hoodlum has to do is go outside and see a bunch of “whities” and their worldview is confirmed…”
Likewise, there is a tendency in the US official media to soft-pedal on the black-on-white crime, deliberately dismissing or denying any racial hatred regardless how explicit the evidence might be. Just like in case of Russian judiciary refusing to recognize “Kill the darkies!” cries as racially motivated, in the US there are numerous examples of well documented “Kill the whities!” cries excluded from evidence in courts.
Can one of this thread that is taking the line that the violence in Russia is no different than anywhere else please explain to me where a government/legislative official in the West is justifying taking violent action against people walking the street minding their own business. I mean, we can go back and forth with the comparisons, but nowhere in the West is there 60% (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230158.stm) of any ethnic group who has been violently attacked and then, per the video in the original posts, Nazi-linked legislators justifying the situation. A couple of skinheads in Norway, black youths in American urban areas or even hilarious militia movements in the U.S. are just convenient topics for Russia apologists to bring up because on the surface there are some very superficial similarities. But any time you point out the obvious differences, the Russia apologist begins the But Whatabouts and changes the subject. It’d all be pretty entertaining if we weren’t seeing people torchured half to death on friggin traincars just outside of Moscow.
So what are the “obvious differences” between suppressing evidence of racial hatred in white-on-dark crimes in Russia and black-on-white crimes in the US?
Since I’ve begun reading the Oushakine book (which is growing on me, you’ll be happy to learn) I think I have a better understanding of the dynamics of racism in Russia. I still think that all racism is borne out of the same things (ignorance, fear, etc.)and result in the same unconstructive crap. But factors that allow it to flourish might have their own particular flavor…
“I tend to agree except that all your examples: inner city, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Mexico and Congo are hardly stable environments.”
Mexico? It’s an industrialized, pretty much middle-of-the-road country in just about all respects. You can’t compare it with Congo in terms of stability. It’s not all that different from the US (relative to Congo).
IMO one big big reason why young men in Western Europe don’t tend to do this thing as much (although it should be noted that IIRC Sweden’s rate of attacks on racial minorities is about on a par with Russia’s per capita) is that, due to Western Europe’s well-functioning system of law enforcement, they are likely to get caught.
Obama’s newly appointed Enironment Tsar was organizing rallies for Mumia Abu-Jamal. Which means a high US gov. official is a supporter of the convict in racially motivated murder case.
Sounds like one more primetime show masking as politics for the Who Gives a Shit Channel.
I hadn’t even heard of Van Jones until I turned on the internet this morning. That’s how much I care to pay attention. Another falls from Barack Oball-less’ administration. Oh well. Oball-less should have known Jones’ past would serve as chum for the loudmouth Republican media sharks.
Race hustler. Oh boy. Keep drinking the kool-aid, Candide. One day you’ll realize the farcical conservative v. liberal “war” is really just a form of managed democracy. Oball-less’ true colors are as just another shill for the corporate ruling class.
Bush may have been an ass, but the guy had balls. I can respect that.
One day you’ll realize the farcical conservative v. liberal “war” is really just a form of managed democracy.
Oh Boy, Sean, you are diving off the deep conspiratorial end, aren’t you? Even semantically, in a managed democracy some entity has to manage it. So who is managing the farcical war? Skulls and Bones? Corporate ruling class? It is just as united and monolithic as modern day proletariat. Still reading the Iron Heel?
That Jones guy was a 9/11 truther. Obama is not ball-less – he is arrogantly mindless thinking (or rather not thinking) this would work.
Cyrill, I’ve discovered long ago that talking seriously to you about politics is a fruitless and frustrating effort. You still believe that feudalism exists for christsakes. How the hell can you discuss things with someone with that kind of historical obstinacy?
Are you really that black and white? No wonder that I have not noticed any progress over the last 5 years or so. There is nothing to believe in, Sean. Unlike what you were taught by ideologues that formed you – “isms” are just mental constructs for classification purposes. There is no need to believe in inches or meters.
And speaking of obstinacy – aren’t you the one still clasping to the black and white class struggle model with no regard that most of the classes in that model don’t even exist anymore? It’s not even 1960-s anymore.
No wonder that I have not noticed any progress over the last 5 years or so.
Yet you’re still here. Reading, commenting, and hanging around. I wonder why. The one time I listed to your radio show I turned it off after 2 minutes and never listened again. And it wasn’t even about the content. It was your over the top self righteous presentation like some mini-Limbaugh grating in my ears. If I’m so black and white then why don’t you extend me the same courtesy. Now hop along little bunny. Hop along.
The same courtesy, meaning, making conclusions about you after reading your posts for two minutes? Not my idea of a fair assessment, but then again, I am not in academia like you are; which coincidently explains your preoccupation with somebody else’s style – never yours, no matter how crude it gets at times. But then again, left never had much sophistication.
But, Sean, in all fairness, I am here very seldom and mostly for comments from others – that are sadly getting thin – and to get some pleasure from raffling your feathers once in a while.
Talking about missing points, my point was about racial politics and subversion of judicial process.
I think it was quite telling that everybody had something to say about racial hatred among Russian hoodlums but as soon as I brought up the subject of racial hatred among black US hoodlums there was complete silence, except FreddieBak who flatly stated there is absolutely nothing in common. Well, I think there are many things in common, and if we explore why black hoodlums in the US are getting a “break” when commiting racial crimes, we may understand much better why Russian hoodlums are getting similar “breaks”.
Just to be clear, I hold that troglodite Victorian view of Justice as blind and impartial: if ther is a Law and the Law is broken than the proper punishment must be administered. I think Russian white racists and US black racists must be sentenced to the full extend of the pertinent Laws. However, the modern world doesn’t follow that concept. In the US, the considerations of social justice and memory of the past wrongs agaist black people usually interfere to the effect that racial hatred is often excused and/or disregarded when blacks commit crimes against whites, no matter how strong the evidence might be. If we find such subversion of justice understandable in the US, why not in Russia?
Except for the skin color, same arguments in defence of the low-brow hoodlums apply to the Russian ones, all the way back to the slavery. Slavery was abolished at about the same time in Russia and the US, and I’d guess that majority of those Russian hoodlums come from slave families that were exploited, downtrodden, disregarded, mislead and abused for generations by Tsarist, Soviet and Oligarkh regimes in Russia.
Present day US justice comes down harshly on white racists but makes extra considerations for black racists (that is in reverse to the situation in 1950-s and considered a sign of social progress). Russian justice makes extra considerations for white racists. This is viewed as scary throwback to the 1950-s and denounced by the Western “progressive” types. Inthe process, specific Russian circumstaces are disregarded, such as that Russia was never a party to black slave trade, never had black slave plantations and thus doesn’t have a black “underclass”. However, Russia has proportionately much larger white “underclass”, that went through many similar trials and tribulations. If the modern principle of Social Justice dictates that laws can be interpreted differently for certain “underclass” citizens, why can’t Russian state apply that principle to its own “underclass” citizens? Because they look like “white majority”?
wauw, seriously Candide! i mean seriously? “how the black hoodlums get away unpunished with racisme” seriously!? off all the things that could be said about race issues and the justice system in the US, you choose black against white racism, and how the US justice system just all ways let those black hoodlums get away with everything. I mean seriously.
I’m a very long time lurker on this blog, I still enjoy the post, but the comment section have degenerated into I really don’t know what. It even makes me miss Averko. It’s a shame really because a good comment section really adds to a blog. Here it seriously subtracts.
Obviously you didn’t understand my whole point but thanks for a good question.
No, the justice system doesn’t let go completely, either in the US or Russia. Those who persist in their racist ways eventually do get the full punishment. First time racist offenders often get off easy. In Russia those offenders who get a break are white skin, in the US they are black. I was careful to point out that 50 years ago in the US it was white racist criminals getting the break. So the major issue here is not even race but subversion of justice.
FreddyBak, regarding your response to my post, I actually agree with you and I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I brought up the coverage of ethnic violence in Western Europe in response the insinuation in some of the earlier posts that Russia is somehow unfairly targeted in the news media, that the media ignores this sort of thing when it happens in the West. I was saying I find that claim ridiculous, I’m constantly reading articles about far-right parties and nationalist groups in Western Europe.
Brandon, that makes sense – apologies. There’s definitely no shortage of coverage in Western hate groups. I guess what I was getting at is even if coverage of Russian hate groups was disproportionate compared to coverage Western hate groups, such disproportionality would be justified on the merits because of the things I mention in my above posts.
Freddy:
You forget that when you discuss blacks in the USA it means like 40 million people. But when you talk about blacks in Russia, it means no more than like 10 thousand.
There are other social groups of such scale, who are in worse situation and need social care. For example, Liquidators of the Chernobyl disasters — about 800,000 disaster-remediation workers who got their doses of radiation in 1986. They often need costly medical treatment, what makes them a very vulnerable social group.
Okey, if you aren’t discussing other countries and discuss only Russia, and if you actually care, why don’t you write about Liquidators?
I can propose answers:
1) You actually don’t care.
2) You are just following “blacks in Russia” story as a convenient political accusation.
Evgeny, this isn’t about blacks nor is it a conversation based on numbers of people. This is a discussion about the political climate as it relates to hate groups in Russia. That political climate is uniquely dangerous in Russia and affects all sorts of people, not just blacks. Dunno if you watched the video, but anyone who looks darker can be a victim, both according to reports and the perpetrators themsevels.
I’m not familiar with all of the details about the victims of Chernobyl, but I can only imagine that their case is still a tragedy. But this a matter of neglect and incompetence. It has very little to do with hatred or walking down the street on Hitler’s birthday.
Mazel tov, Evgeny, on demonstrating yet another hilarious example of whataboutism.
I was typing fast: I meant to say anyone who looks darker and might be foreign, not just Africans. Also “themselves” not “themsevels”.
FreddyBak: I can only see what sheer idiots are you in the West. Sorry.
According to the statistics, the number of crines committed by migrants to Russia is several times greater than the amount of crimes against them.
It’s hilarious to state that migrants in Russia are threatened and keep silence of that they are a greater source of danger for the local people.
Re-whataboutism.
And what about it?
This is a childish and circular argument at best; more usually, the squeal of the exposed hypocrite.
I agree that this argument should not be used to deflect genuine criticism from Russia’s shortcomings. However, as soon as the focus shifts to scoring cheap political points – and that is the modus operandi of almost everyone accusing their opponents of whataboutism – using this rebuttal becomes fair game.
@poemless,
Why is your blog down?
Freddy:
Please, don’t pretend you understand anything about Russia:
1) You didn’t live in it unless when you were a kid.
2) The country changed anyway since that time.
Freddy:
That is, you actually need to learn, while you [the Russian emigrants] often prefer to take several generally anti-Russian atricles for granted.
I can understand where does this stem from — the times of the radio “Freedom” when for certain circles the information broadcast by Americans was an undeniable truth.
Besides, Russians in the U.S. must be feeling a bit of foreign, so to adapt they may take the state propagadna at its worst as a sincere belief.
I’m sorry then. Now you are foreign for Russia too.
The Western world is a world of foreigners. In many senses.
“Why is your blog down?”
Appears to be up and running from where I am at. Maybe there was a wordpress glitch?
On the original subject, I always wonder how much the whole skinhead thing is just teen angst and not necessarily just about racism. Your standard teenage male has a whole lot of steam he needs to blow off to stay sane. For those that are not into sports and other more constructive outlets for violence, being in a gang of sorts can be enticing. It doesn’t matter if the gang is your conventional street gang, skinhead gang, ALF/ELF gang, soccer hool gang, etc. As far as I am concerned, they are all the same. To be honest, skinheads have a pretty decent uniform and they piss off the right people (middle to upper class whites on both sides of the political aisle). Probably why they have always had such an easy time infiltrating working class enclaves.
All the standard disclaimers apply to the above about not promoting/discounting anything, etc.)
Speaking of other gangs, soccer hools don’t really exist in the US, so I can’t say if it is just a Russian phenomenon, but I have noticed that soccer hools seem to be quite prevalent in Russia, at least in the provinces. Some time back, I used to do youtube searches on various Russian towns, to try to get a feel for what it was like in the provinces. Invariably, I would always run across some video of soccer hools from two different towns having a good, old-fashioned street brawl. First the chanting and waving of flags/banners, then the slow march towards each other, followed by a relatively quick melee. Very odd from an American perspective, like something from the book Outsiders. I guess I would be more weary running across these gangs, than skinheads as a foreigner, as I assume (erroneously?) that they are more prevalent.
This isn’t about soccer hools or about the Western media singling out Russia, this is a simple case of a culture that has a long way to go before it can be considered tolerant or, dare I say, civilized: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230158.stm
Fred, have you seen this one:
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/articles/detail.php?ID=381497
Sean, No I haven’t…but,um, wow.
You know, I’ve actually always opposed Hate Crimes legislation here at home because I always envision any dispute turning into a race issue and I’d always considered the laws on the books generally sufficient. But the incident described in the article you just linked to kind of made me rethink that. If this type of stuff was rampant here, I’d be down for a little Hate Crimes legislation.
Jason, this was an interesting read if you’re interested in soccer gangs in Europe
http://www.amazon.com/Among-Thugs-Bill-Buford/dp/0679745351
“On the original subject, I always wonder how much the whole skinhead thing is just teen angst and not necessarily just about racism.”
I think it’s a violent young male with nothing to do thing. If these guys were in the US inner city (and black), they would be in the bloods or crips. If they were in Afghanistan, they would be in the Taliban. If they were in Chechnya, they would be boitsy. In Congo, they would be in some war band. In Mexico, in some drug gang. In Norway, they would be, well, skinheads.
Ideology is completely secondary. It’s an excuse for violence.
I think it’s a violent young male with nothing to do thing.
I tend to agree except that all your examples: inner city, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Mexico and Congo are hardly stable environments. As for Norway, well I don’t know how you can compare. I would imagine that a lot of young guys with nothing to do there just sit in their rooms listening to Black metal. Skinheads exist in most Western countries and are increasing thanks to economic pressures and immigration, but in Russia they are growing at a faster rate and their attacks are more numerous. So I think there is something more at work that just guys having nothing to do. The issue is why some who have “nothing to do” gravitate to groups that embrace hatred and violence. To answer that we have to consider the environment in which they come from.
I also agree that ideology is secondary, but one of the most consistent things skinheads from every country say is that others live better at their expense. So unemployment, the lack of opportunity, etc tends to go hand in hand with skins. It is no surprise that most skins are working class since they are ones who must compete with immigrants for jobs. Racist and nationalist ideology has the ability to explain their condition. All a budding skin has to do is go outside and see a bunch of “darkies” and their worldview is confirmed. At some point ideology becomes reaffirming to the point where it and violence are indistinguishable as excuses. The perfect wedding of theory and praxis.
If skinhead groups work similar to other youth groups I’ve read about, then the process works like this: You join because many of your friends are in it. Or you join because they are willing to accept you. Once in that milieu you begin to adopt the worldview. Through peer pressure a youth is drawn in to act, whether they actually ascribe to all aspects of the ideology or not. When a bunch of your friends jump someone then you have to jump in too. The consequences for not jumping (ostracism, ridicule, alienation) in are worse that any moral anguish a youth might experience. In fact, there might not be any moral qualms at all since being part of the skinhead groups provides an alternative ethical code where jumping people is the moral thing to do.
Also, I think the fact that a lot of gang-like groups provide an alternative family/friend circle based on strong bonds and sense of solidarity is important.
Now back to writing my damn diss conclusion . . .
Sean,
When you finish your stupid dissertation and start thinking straight again, you’ll realize that whatever you said about skinheads is equally valid for the US black hoodlums.
“…one of the most consistent things US black hoodlums say is that others live better at their expense. So unemployment, the lack of opportunity, etc tends to go hand in hand with the US black hoodlums… All a budding US black hoodlum has to do is go outside and see a bunch of “whities” and their worldview is confirmed…”
Likewise, there is a tendency in the US official media to soft-pedal on the black-on-white crime, deliberately dismissing or denying any racial hatred regardless how explicit the evidence might be. Just like in case of Russian judiciary refusing to recognize “Kill the darkies!” cries as racially motivated, in the US there are numerous examples of well documented “Kill the whities!” cries excluded from evidence in courts.
Can one of this thread that is taking the line that the violence in Russia is no different than anywhere else please explain to me where a government/legislative official in the West is justifying taking violent action against people walking the street minding their own business. I mean, we can go back and forth with the comparisons, but nowhere in the West is there 60% (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230158.stm) of any ethnic group who has been violently attacked and then, per the video in the original posts, Nazi-linked legislators justifying the situation. A couple of skinheads in Norway, black youths in American urban areas or even hilarious militia movements in the U.S. are just convenient topics for Russia apologists to bring up because on the surface there are some very superficial similarities. But any time you point out the obvious differences, the Russia apologist begins the But Whatabouts and changes the subject. It’d all be pretty entertaining if we weren’t seeing people torchured half to death on friggin traincars just outside of Moscow.
So what are the “obvious differences” between suppressing evidence of racial hatred in white-on-dark crimes in Russia and black-on-white crimes in the US?
Sean,
Since I’ve begun reading the Oushakine book (which is growing on me, you’ll be happy to learn) I think I have a better understanding of the dynamics of racism in Russia. I still think that all racism is borne out of the same things (ignorance, fear, etc.)and result in the same unconstructive crap. But factors that allow it to flourish might have their own particular flavor…
“I tend to agree except that all your examples: inner city, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Mexico and Congo are hardly stable environments.”
Mexico? It’s an industrialized, pretty much middle-of-the-road country in just about all respects. You can’t compare it with Congo in terms of stability. It’s not all that different from the US (relative to Congo).
IMO one big big reason why young men in Western Europe don’t tend to do this thing as much (although it should be noted that IIRC Sweden’s rate of attacks on racial minorities is about on a par with Russia’s per capita) is that, due to Western Europe’s well-functioning system of law enforcement, they are likely to get caught.
This just in.
Obama’s newly appointed Enironment Tsar was organizing rallies for Mumia Abu-Jamal. Which means a high US gov. official is a supporter of the convict in racially motivated murder case.
This just in!!!
“President Barack Obama’s adviser Van Jones has resigned amid controversy over past inflammatory statements, the White House said early Sunday.”
So we now have one less race hustler among the US power officials.
Sounds like one more primetime show masking as politics for the Who Gives a Shit Channel.
I hadn’t even heard of Van Jones until I turned on the internet this morning. That’s how much I care to pay attention. Another falls from Barack Oball-less’ administration. Oh well. Oball-less should have known Jones’ past would serve as chum for the loudmouth Republican media sharks.
Race hustler. Oh boy. Keep drinking the kool-aid, Candide. One day you’ll realize the farcical conservative v. liberal “war” is really just a form of managed democracy. Oball-less’ true colors are as just another shill for the corporate ruling class.
Bush may have been an ass, but the guy had balls. I can respect that.
One day you’ll realize the farcical conservative v. liberal “war” is really just a form of managed democracy.
Oh Boy, Sean, you are diving off the deep conspiratorial end, aren’t you? Even semantically, in a managed democracy some entity has to manage it. So who is managing the farcical war? Skulls and Bones? Corporate ruling class? It is just as united and monolithic as modern day proletariat. Still reading the Iron Heel?
That Jones guy was a 9/11 truther. Obama is not ball-less – he is arrogantly mindless thinking (or rather not thinking) this would work.
Cyrill, I’ve discovered long ago that talking seriously to you about politics is a fruitless and frustrating effort. You still believe that feudalism exists for christsakes. How the hell can you discuss things with someone with that kind of historical obstinacy?
Doug Henwood, one of the few leftists I still respect, partially sums up my position vis-a-vis Oball-less. http://doughenwood.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/delusions-on-the-left/
still believe that feudalism exists
Are you really that black and white? No wonder that I have not noticed any progress over the last 5 years or so. There is nothing to believe in, Sean. Unlike what you were taught by ideologues that formed you – “isms” are just mental constructs for classification purposes. There is no need to believe in inches or meters.
And speaking of obstinacy – aren’t you the one still clasping to the black and white class struggle model with no regard that most of the classes in that model don’t even exist anymore? It’s not even 1960-s anymore.
No wonder that I have not noticed any progress over the last 5 years or so.
Yet you’re still here. Reading, commenting, and hanging around. I wonder why. The one time I listed to your radio show I turned it off after 2 minutes and never listened again. And it wasn’t even about the content. It was your over the top self righteous presentation like some mini-Limbaugh grating in my ears. If I’m so black and white then why don’t you extend me the same courtesy. Now hop along little bunny. Hop along.
The same courtesy, meaning, making conclusions about you after reading your posts for two minutes? Not my idea of a fair assessment, but then again, I am not in academia like you are; which coincidently explains your preoccupation with somebody else’s style – never yours, no matter how crude it gets at times. But then again, left never had much sophistication.
But, Sean, in all fairness, I am here very seldom and mostly for comments from others – that are sadly getting thin – and to get some pleasure from raffling your feathers once in a while.
“There is nothing to believe in, Sean.”
Totally missing Sean’s point, which was that you’re a lunatic.
Talking about missing points, my point was about racial politics and subversion of judicial process.
I think it was quite telling that everybody had something to say about racial hatred among Russian hoodlums but as soon as I brought up the subject of racial hatred among black US hoodlums there was complete silence, except FreddieBak who flatly stated there is absolutely nothing in common. Well, I think there are many things in common, and if we explore why black hoodlums in the US are getting a “break” when commiting racial crimes, we may understand much better why Russian hoodlums are getting similar “breaks”.
Just to be clear, I hold that troglodite Victorian view of Justice as blind and impartial: if ther is a Law and the Law is broken than the proper punishment must be administered. I think Russian white racists and US black racists must be sentenced to the full extend of the pertinent Laws. However, the modern world doesn’t follow that concept. In the US, the considerations of social justice and memory of the past wrongs agaist black people usually interfere to the effect that racial hatred is often excused and/or disregarded when blacks commit crimes against whites, no matter how strong the evidence might be. If we find such subversion of justice understandable in the US, why not in Russia?
Except for the skin color, same arguments in defence of the low-brow hoodlums apply to the Russian ones, all the way back to the slavery. Slavery was abolished at about the same time in Russia and the US, and I’d guess that majority of those Russian hoodlums come from slave families that were exploited, downtrodden, disregarded, mislead and abused for generations by Tsarist, Soviet and Oligarkh regimes in Russia.
Present day US justice comes down harshly on white racists but makes extra considerations for black racists (that is in reverse to the situation in 1950-s and considered a sign of social progress). Russian justice makes extra considerations for white racists. This is viewed as scary throwback to the 1950-s and denounced by the Western “progressive” types. Inthe process, specific Russian circumstaces are disregarded, such as that Russia was never a party to black slave trade, never had black slave plantations and thus doesn’t have a black “underclass”. However, Russia has proportionately much larger white “underclass”, that went through many similar trials and tribulations. If the modern principle of Social Justice dictates that laws can be interpreted differently for certain “underclass” citizens, why can’t Russian state apply that principle to its own “underclass” citizens? Because they look like “white majority”?
wauw, seriously Candide! i mean seriously? “how the black hoodlums get away unpunished with racisme” seriously!? off all the things that could be said about race issues and the justice system in the US, you choose black against white racism, and how the US justice system just all ways let those black hoodlums get away with everything. I mean seriously.
I’m a very long time lurker on this blog, I still enjoy the post, but the comment section have degenerated into I really don’t know what. It even makes me miss Averko. It’s a shame really because a good comment section really adds to a blog. Here it seriously subtracts.
fred,
Obviously you didn’t understand my whole point but thanks for a good question.
No, the justice system doesn’t let go completely, either in the US or Russia. Those who persist in their racist ways eventually do get the full punishment. First time racist offenders often get off easy. In Russia those offenders who get a break are white skin, in the US they are black. I was careful to point out that 50 years ago in the US it was white racist criminals getting the break. So the major issue here is not even race but subversion of justice.