Video: From Russia with Hate

Not to nitpick or anything, but isn’t this from two years ago? Still interesting, and still scary as hell though.

The bold young man in the beginning says something very interesting. He says that immigrants are brought in as cheap workforce to the exclusion of Russians. I always thought of this practice as modern day slavery. It allows the rich to pay less for their labour and forces the native population to accept the conditions created by this situation, i.e. work for less. The employers rarely come into contact with their slaves. Down in the Communist built suburbs that’s a different story and this is the result.

The love of money is the root of all evil.

“From Russia with Hate”

No, no, you didn’t…

Yeah, it all happened two years ago. Now the skins and the immigrants are the best of pals. They are even going to play football (soccer) together.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090805/155735054.html

OK, but we have this in Europe too?

It’s unusual, but some people feel this way.

It’s not any worse when it happens in Russia than when it happens in France, UK, Germany etc.

We have this everywhere. The only thing that makes it specifically Russian is the ethnicities and language of the perpetrator and victim.

This is BTW what bugs Russians about the way this stuff is presented. It is as if someone made a post called “From South Africa, with Pogroms,” and then showed violence by Zulus against Zimbabweans, as if it was somehow representative of South Africa or Zulus.

“From Earth, with Hate”

In other news, did you hear that selling Bad Religion t-shits, patches, etc. is now like, illegal? for the ‘propaganda of ethnic, racial, and religious intolerance.’

http://misha-ozz.livejournal.com/78152.html

“From Doom, with Great Superiority over All Others”

“In other news, did you hear that selling Bad Religion t-shits, patches, etc. is now like, illegal?”

People should stop reporting on nonenforced laws as if they were meaningful.

“It’s not any worse when it happens in Russia than when it happens in France, UK, Germany etc.”

Who on earth said it was worse when it happened in Russia? I’ve read plenty of articles about anti-immigrant groups in Germany, Italy, and France, too. The fact that xenophobia exists everywhere doesn’t mean we should dismiss it and avoid talking about it in Russia.

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, if you are annoyed by “whataboutism”, why not post stories that are uniquely Russian on your site, or frame them in a nuanced way that shows how this seemingly common story has aspects that are particular to Russia, or how this Russian story is symptomatic of a larger international phenomenon? I don’t see anything wrong with exposing problems in Russia which are not unique but nevertheless unacceptable. But, “From Russia with Hate?” Really? How can you not get that that is every bit as cringe-inducing as “whatboutism?”

Anyway, OT:

A friend of mine in DC wants to introduce me to a friend of hers, because we are her two “Russophile” friends and she likes hooking people up like that. But I googled him and he’s a top guy at the DHS! Gah!! Should I politely decline or throw caution to the wind? DHS gives me the creeps…

No! I was trying (and failing) to be constructive…

Honestly people, aren’t you bored of this nonsense? Everytime I tell a story about a woman – I have to say (a) I am one, and therefore hold no special resentment to women. (b) It happens to men too. (c) It’s not culturally specific – and wait a second – just before you yawn and move on – let me tell you a completely irrelevant story that doesn’t interest me, but will prove that I am not biased.

I was making suggestions based on the comments in this thread in light of your recent rant about “whataboutism.” I was not telling you what to do (or accusing him of bias, Maya), just thinking that if this not the direction you want your commenters to head, here are some way of presenting material that might fix that. I am sorry that wasn’t more clear.

I have been out of school for many years, and when I was there, I was getting a B.S. and there was not all of this tension about Russia, so I really have no insight into the psychology of grad students or their professors. I must have struck a nerve, but I am not those people. My comment about uniqueness was a suggestion (“why not…?”), and only one of several, about how to frame your posts, which you can ignore, or not. But I really don’t think it warranted a threat to leave your blog or Maya’s exasperated response.

I’m sorry Kolya left.

I hope that Kolya didn’t really leave forever. My first thought in watching the clip was “what was the reporter’s agenda?” He seemed to want to make himself the center of the story. Between his breathless narrative, I was hearing him whisper to me “Look at me! I’m putting myself in real danger bringing this story to you. I could be killed at any moment.” I stopped watching when he was being driven somewhere where the big-skin needed to be sure no police could follow. It reminded me of that SL post comprised of staged portrait photos of Russia’s elite youth. Is this exposing the malady of the subjects or the artist?

Poemless, I realize you were trying to be helpful, but concerning this “whataboutism” phenomenon, as you colorfully describe it, I think that it is inevitable, and some people are just geared towards responding in that vain regardless of the content. I don’t think it’s Sean’s responsibility to frame his posts in such a way as to avoid these types of reactions. He might be legitimately criticized if he was framing them in such a way as to deliberately provoke such responses, but as a long time reader (but very seldom poster) of the site, I don’t think he does that.

I think there was some screwy editing in this story. When the Sri-Lankan-American guy was talking about how “you’re either black or white” it seemed to me like he was actually talking about America. Race relations are basically lumped into those two categories in the states while they’re more…aggressively nuanced… in Russia.

Sean, regarding the skin’s agenda, my guess is that they were paid to participate and knew that they were putting on a bit of a show for an English-speaking audience. I’m not denying that there is a skinhead movement with neo-nazi strivings going on in Russia – and that it’s a big problem. I’m not denying that there are many angry, wayward youths that, given the economic and social chaos of the last decades, have been neglected by parents and society as a whole and have no better prospects than to join such a group. But, this clip struck me as put-on.

Next question: where did the money come from? Who is bankrolling the reporter? My mind turns to organizations that have a penchant for creating and manipulating fear in an American audience…As you point out the clip’s opening claims that the rise in neo-Nazism is connected to post-Soviet immigration…the government not sufficiently controlling immigration. Conclusion for intended audience: if the US does not better control immigration, these neo-Nazi’s will be coming to a town near you. Wild guess: Vanguard network is backed by Murdock and Fox.

Current TV is Al Gore’s little project.

To please his paleo-Soviet critics, Sean should take a cue from old Soviet ways to publish negative information, which was patterned like this,

“Comrades, among the numerless colossal and magnificent achievements, some isolated shortcomings still remain and should be brought to light so they can be exterminated…”

Remember, Sean, snappy and cutting titles only serve to discompose the indolent bourgeois. The purpose of progressive journalism must be to mobilize and direct the masses.

Sean,

If Kolya agrees to come back in exchange for Doom’s head on a platter, that’s OK.

But if he wants my genitals the answer is No.

Doom has many backup systems and is perfectly capable of functioning without his head.

“The fact that xenophobia exists everywhere doesn’t mean we should dismiss it and avoid talking about it in Russia.”

That’s not it. It’s that the subject is focussed on by the general media (including blogs) in a different way when it occurs in Russia than when it occurs in say Britain or Sweden (which has a lot of racial violence). The attitude of exasperation is directed against the media and does not have to do with the phenomenon itself. (By “media” I mean English-language media.)

This is obvious. Just ask yourself how Obama’s town-hall meetings and the various fringe-right attempts to disrupt them would be covered if they took place in Russia.

“snappy and cutting titles only serve to discompose the indolent bourgeois”

“From Russia with X” is the opposite of snapping and cutting. It’s the biggest cliche there is.

Sean, thanks for posting this, I hadn’t seen it and found it quite interesting. The thing about the “whataboutism” is that if you try to pre-empt it in your framing of whatever you post about Russia, you wind up 1) wasting a lot of everyone’s time; 2) wasting a lot of space; 3) watering down your focus. Basically, trying not to offend the “a u vas negrov linchuiut” crowd by beginning each post with a pro forma apology for having been born in the Great Satan is an exercise in extreme political correctness.

Sean, when I read your earlier cri de coeur about “whataboutism,” I thought one approach might be to just have a disclaimer or what is known in some areas of legal practice as a “legend” that appears at the top or bottom of the post. Something along the lines of the following:

Although I am an American and this post may be construed as critical of Russia and/or other countries of which I am not a citizen or national, I hereby acknowledge that the United States has committed a bevy of sins, domestic and international, including but not limited to the the following: [list to include slavery, dropping the Bomb (Russians like that one), Vietnam, Gitmo, etc.]. Moreover, I acknowledge that I may be suffering from the pervasive anti-Russian [or insert appropriate kind of bias here] bias of the English-language media. Finally, I acknowledge that I am typing and posting these words from territory seized unlawfully from the Native Americans. The content of this post which is critical of Russia and/or other countries should be read in light of the foregoing qualifications, which are an integral part of this post.

Anyway, the problem with trying to pre-emptively silence insatiable critics of your criticism is that it requires you censor yourself, to blunt your outrage and muddy your reportage or argument – once you have to do that, the terrorists have won.

From my own experience, here is an example of a post when I tried to be balanced (actually, in this case I think it was appropriate) and had to take up a lot of space in doing so. Often I have found myself writing with qualifications or hedging remarks (“I know this happens in other countries, too, but…”); sometimes it is appropriate and sometimes it is not. It depends on the actual facts being described (i.e., the extent to which the phenomenon or its extent really is unique to Russia), but ultimately these determinations must be left to the author of the blog, who will then have to deal with the clamoring “whataboutists” (e.g. “Martienne” on this particular post).

@tess – do you really think this guy paid the skinheads for their involvement? If that was your impression, I’m not trying to change your mind, but having watched the whole thing, I find it very difficult to imagine. If Rumyantsev and Tesak et al. were not initially inclined to participate, how much do you think he would have had to pay them to change their mind (and what do you think the overall budget for this little film was)? And if they were initially inclined, why would he have to pay them? The impression I got is that they are proud of their work and thought being interviewed for this would be 1) a lark and 2) a way to get overseas publicity for their work. Organizations like this try to build ties with their counterparts in other countries.

Also, with respect to the reporter’s framing of the story (which you described as “Look at me! I’m putting myself in real danger bringing this story to you. I could be killed at any moment.”), remember that this is a guy who had just parachuted in, didn’t seem to know much Russian and probably was actually scared (perhaps not without reason). Also, unlike straight news (where we might expect reporters to file footage from a battlefield without talking about how they were shitting their pants at that moment), I think the documentary form gives more leeway for creating a narrative that involves the reporter – sort of like the difference between a wire report and a feature.

Anyway, although I guess this is all old news, I found it to be illuminating and (need I say) disturbing. I confess I hadn’t thought before about the strategic “propaganda” aspect of beating people who look different from you to within an inch of their lives and then broadcasting footage of the beat-downs so that more such people don’t show up, but it does have its own f*ed-up logic. And burning that guy’s passport – wow.

I did find it bizarre that a guy whose followers administer beat-downs to LKNs would have such extreme and warped veneration for Stalin that he would paste his own head on a picture of Uncle Joe, but I guess this contradiction lives in the heads of a lot of Russian supremacists who venerate Stalin.

Also, did anyone else find it odd in the intro when the narrator observed that in 1991 Russia opened its borders to the former Soviet republics? I guess in a sense it’s true, since it was probably harder to relocate from e.g. Dushanbe to Moscow in 1985 than in 2005, but it just sounded odd, all the more so since I’m not sure when the trend of migrant laborers from the CIS really began, but I don’t think it was in the early ’90s – the migrants from the CIS in those years were ethnic Russians.

And for the whataboutists on this thread, can someone please direct me to American or European groups who have a sufficient sense of impunity (perhaps unjustified, in Tesak’s case) to post videos of their own violent criminal activity online with identifiable victims and in some cases perps?

“And for the whataboutists on this thread, can someone please direct me to American or European groups who have a sufficient sense of impunity (perhaps unjustified, in Tesak’s case) to post videos of their own violent criminal activity online with identifiable victims and in some cases perps?”

See, that IS specific. However, this concerns weak legal systems, and not ethnic violence or hate.

“Basically, trying not to offend the “a u vas negrov linchuiut” crowd by beginning each post with a pro forma apology for having been born in the Great Satan is an exercise in extreme political correctness.”

By the way, who in this thread was actually doing this? Did anybody mention anything about Sean’s being American, or America at all? Or are you just engaging in your own kneejerk version of “u vas negrov linchuyut,” your technique for dismissing other people’s criticisms of you?

“Who on earth said it was worse when it happened in Russia? I’ve read plenty of articles about anti-immigrant groups in Germany, Italy, and France, too. The fact that xenophobia exists everywhere doesn’t mean we should dismiss it and avoid talking about it in Russia.”

Are you kidding me? Any sane person on earth will at least say that racist violence is more pervasive in Russia. Whataboutism is a poisonous Russian argumentative tool that basically changes the subject. Any shmuck with internet access can find racist incidents in Western countries. But last time I checked, minorities weren’t on friggin lockdown on Hitler’s birthday. There was no cult of beating videos on the internets. Etc, etc. Incidents like this happen in the U.S. (for instance) but they make the news bigtime. These videos would be looped on CNN if the beatings took place in Texas and there would be congressional inquiries, etc. To be sure, there would not be a freaking member of congress endorsing this shiat.

Racism has and always will exist, but to say that what is in this video is not unique to Russia is ridiculous and I am not sure why you are backpedalling on it, Sean.

Good Grief. Can I put the lid back on this can of worms?

On topic, here is an interesting poll:

Russians become more ethnically tolerant, dislike Caucasians most – poll

Moscow, 3 August: In recent years the ethnic tolerance of Russians has grown, and the list of nations to which they have the biggest aversion includes inhabitants of the Caucasus, Central Asia and gypsies, sociologists have revealed.

Over half of Russians (55 per cent) do not have a dislike of other peoples, and in the last four years the tolerance of (Russian) citizens has risen by 21 per cent, sociologists from VTsIOM (Russian Public Opinion Research Centre) told Interfax on Monday (3 August) based on the results of an all-Russian survey carried out in 140 locations in 42 regions, territories and republics around Russia.

The researchers ascertained that Russian citizens have the greatest liking for representatives of their own ethnically Russian people and for Slavs in general (31 per cent). In second place are Belarusians and Ukrainians (13 and 11 per cent respectively). Seven per cent like Europeans – the English, French, Germans, Italians and Spanish,- 4 per cent like Caucasians (the Adygei, Armenians, Georgians, Kabardians etc.). Three per cent have a positive view of Tatars, 2 per cent for the Bashkir and the Mordvin.

Russians like Americans, Buryats, Jews, Chinese, Moldovans and Japanese least of all (1 per cent each). Finally, 20 per cent of respondents said that they regard all peoples equally. (…)

Russians least frequently have a negative view of Moldovans, Tatars, Turks, Asians, Arabs and Muslims, and Africans (1 per cent each).

Russians don’t like Jews and Americans? No way. But seriously, Poemless, I don’t doubt that Russians have been getting less intolerant over the last 20 years. More exposure to the world through travel and technology will do that. But they are still miles behind most of the West on this issue and it annoys me when they (or their Western apologists) use the Butwhatabout angle as a defense to what is still a shockingly ignorant and intolerant society by 20th Century Western standards. Again, we’re talking about lockdown on Hitler’s birthday.

BTW, since I’m new to this blog, I’m a Russian Jew, born in St. Petersburg, moved to the states at age 6 and grew up in the South.

Hey, whatabout the Illinois Nazis!?

They activities are well documented, no?

Not sure about Nazis, but the KKK have been here my whole life.

Some other guy blogged about this when it first came out!

The problem, as I see it, is that both Western and Russian media have developed something akin to ethnic-violence porn, a visceral fascination with racist youth and the possible roots of their extremism. Televised specials like the Ross Kemp’s work on neo-Nazis in Moscow or Current’s “From Russia With Hate,” attempt to demonstrate the madness of extremism through displays of violence and then get to the bottom of the lunacy by getting inside the heads of the movements’ leaders. It’s a presentation of the problem that reproduces the visual logic of the movements’ own video propaganda, only with the addition of negative commentary. (To the Current producers’ credit, they note their uneasiness about this quandary.) Little attempt is made to more broadly situate the problem of ethnic violence, or its political and social consequences. It’s sensationalism without sense.

http://moscowthroughbrowneyes.blogspot.com/2007/11/brown-reconstruction-in-moscow.html

Sean, Sean… getting so lazy these days!

“let the skins in it speak for themselves. If you watch it you can see that they have no problem doing that.”

yes, they have no problem to speak in front of their mobile phones. But they have problems to do it in public.

Most interesting – my son’s friends from Shri-Lanka getting in troubles rather frequently here. And then my “white-skin” son (Russian) bits crap out of locals if “the troubles” go beyond words.

FreddyBak:

“Any sane person on earth will at least say that racist violence is more pervasive in Russia.”

“to what is still a shockingly ignorant and intolerant society by 20th Century Western standards.”

Please, tell me, how does this explain the civilian death toll in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon? Does it mean, that surprisingly patient and tolerant Western society murders people without bad feelings or hatred against them?

May be, then, it’s better to feel hatred to each other, but to stay alive and let people stay alive? At least it’s more fair.

Some level of human aggression is natural. If you don’t let it to be released peacefully, it will be released in a war or a social calamity — and you are free only to choose if to explode other country or let yours to explode.

You are proposing building a Comminism, while it’s impossible.

My professor of Law said the the soccer is the greatest achievement of a humankind — a brilliant example of peaceful release of human aggression.

I believe, skinhead organizations are controlled by FSB, which lets them live if they don’t cross the red line and restricts their further growth.

At least, if I was the head of FSB, I would do it this way.

The “red line” I believe is actually murdering people.

Evgeny, mozhet bit; po rysski potomushto ya inache nechego ne pon;el.

On another note, I realize the “u vas negrov linchuyut” thing is just shorthand, at the risk of the fact that someone has undoubtedly pointed this out already, doesn’t this video kind of demonstrate that russkiye negrov linchuyut?

FreddyBak:

Oh, of course it does. For example, this morning I have lynched three negroes. And what, you don’t lynch negroes in your country? Why?

Freddy I am sorry but that thing is old as …. and completely out of context in this case.

Leos, I realize that. I kind of figured it was from the 1940’s or 50’s. But I’m just sayin .

FreddyBak, regarding your response to my post, I actually agree with you and I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I brought up the coverage of ethnic violence in Western Europe in response the insinuation in some of the earlier posts that Russia is somehow unfairly targeted in the news media, that the media ignores this sort of thing when it happens in the West. I was saying I find that claim ridiculous, I’m constantly reading articles about far-right parties and nationalist groups in Western Europe.

Brandon, that makes sense – apologies. There’s definitely no shortage of coverage in Western hate groups. I guess what I was getting at is even if coverage of Russian hate groups was disproportionate compared to coverage Western hate groups, such disproportionality would be justified on the merits because of the things I mention in my above posts.

Freddy:

You forget that when you discuss blacks in the USA it means like 40 million people. But when you talk about blacks in Russia, it means no more than like 10 thousand.

There are other social groups of such scale, who are in worse situation and need social care. For example, Liquidators of the Chernobyl disasters — about 800,000 disaster-remediation workers who got their doses of radiation in 1986. They often need costly medical treatment, what makes them a very vulnerable social group.

Okey, if you aren’t discussing other countries and discuss only Russia, and if you actually care, why don’t you write about Liquidators?

I can propose answers:

1) You actually don’t care.
2) You are just following “blacks in Russia” story as a convenient political accusation.

Evgeny, this isn’t about blacks nor is it a conversation based on numbers of people. This is a discussion about the political climate as it relates to hate groups in Russia. That political climate is uniquely dangerous in Russia and affects all sorts of people, not just blacks. Dunno if you watched the video, but anyone who looks darker can be a victim, both according to reports and the perpetrators themsevels.

I’m not familiar with all of the details about the victims of Chernobyl, but I can only imagine that their case is still a tragedy. But this a matter of neglect and incompetence. It has very little to do with hatred or walking down the street on Hitler’s birthday.

Mazel tov, Evgeny, on demonstrating yet another hilarious example of whataboutism.

I was typing fast: I meant to say anyone who looks darker and might be foreign, not just Africans. Also “themselves” not “themsevels”.

FreddyBak: I can only see what sheer idiots are you in the West. Sorry.

According to the statistics, the number of crines committed by migrants to Russia is several times greater than the amount of crimes against them.

It’s hilarious to state that migrants in Russia are threatened and keep silence of that they are a greater source of danger for the local people.

Re-whataboutism.

And what about it?

This is a childish and circular argument at best; more usually, the squeal of the exposed hypocrite.

I agree that this argument should not be used to deflect genuine criticism from Russia’s shortcomings. However, as soon as the focus shifts to scoring cheap political points – and that is the modus operandi of almost everyone accusing their opponents of whataboutism – using this rebuttal becomes fair game.

@poemless,

Why is your blog down?

Freddy:

Please, don’t pretend you understand anything about Russia:

1) You didn’t live in it unless when you were a kid.
2) The country changed anyway since that time.

Freddy:

That is, you actually need to learn, while you [the Russian emigrants] often prefer to take several generally anti-Russian atricles for granted.

I can understand where does this stem from — the times of the radio “Freedom” when for certain circles the information broadcast by Americans was an undeniable truth.

Besides, Russians in the U.S. must be feeling a bit of foreign, so to adapt they may take the state propagadna at its worst as a sincere belief.

I’m sorry then. Now you are foreign for Russia too.

The Western world is a world of foreigners. In many senses.

“Why is your blog down?”

Appears to be up and running from where I am at. Maybe there was a wordpress glitch?

On the original subject, I always wonder how much the whole skinhead thing is just teen angst and not necessarily just about racism. Your standard teenage male has a whole lot of steam he needs to blow off to stay sane. For those that are not into sports and other more constructive outlets for violence, being in a gang of sorts can be enticing. It doesn’t matter if the gang is your conventional street gang, skinhead gang, ALF/ELF gang, soccer hool gang, etc. As far as I am concerned, they are all the same. To be honest, skinheads have a pretty decent uniform and they piss off the right people (middle to upper class whites on both sides of the political aisle). Probably why they have always had such an easy time infiltrating working class enclaves.

All the standard disclaimers apply to the above about not promoting/discounting anything, etc.)

Speaking of other gangs, soccer hools don’t really exist in the US, so I can’t say if it is just a Russian phenomenon, but I have noticed that soccer hools seem to be quite prevalent in Russia, at least in the provinces. Some time back, I used to do youtube searches on various Russian towns, to try to get a feel for what it was like in the provinces. Invariably, I would always run across some video of soccer hools from two different towns having a good, old-fashioned street brawl. First the chanting and waving of flags/banners, then the slow march towards each other, followed by a relatively quick melee. Very odd from an American perspective, like something from the book Outsiders. I guess I would be more weary running across these gangs, than skinheads as a foreigner, as I assume (erroneously?) that they are more prevalent.

This isn’t about soccer hools or about the Western media singling out Russia, this is a simple case of a culture that has a long way to go before it can be considered tolerant or, dare I say, civilized: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230158.stm

Sean, No I haven’t…but,um, wow.

You know, I’ve actually always opposed Hate Crimes legislation here at home because I always envision any dispute turning into a race issue and I’d always considered the laws on the books generally sufficient. But the incident described in the article you just linked to kind of made me rethink that. If this type of stuff was rampant here, I’d be down for a little Hate Crimes legislation.

Jason, this was an interesting read if you’re interested in soccer gangs in Europe
http://www.amazon.com/Among-Thugs-Bill-Buford/dp/0679745351

“On the original subject, I always wonder how much the whole skinhead thing is just teen angst and not necessarily just about racism.”

I think it’s a violent young male with nothing to do thing. If these guys were in the US inner city (and black), they would be in the bloods or crips. If they were in Afghanistan, they would be in the Taliban. If they were in Chechnya, they would be boitsy. In Congo, they would be in some war band. In Mexico, in some drug gang. In Norway, they would be, well, skinheads.

Ideology is completely secondary. It’s an excuse for violence.

Sean,

When you finish your stupid dissertation and start thinking straight again, you’ll realize that whatever you said about skinheads is equally valid for the US black hoodlums.

“…one of the most consistent things US black hoodlums say is that others live better at their expense. So unemployment, the lack of opportunity, etc tends to go hand in hand with the US black hoodlums… All a budding US black hoodlum has to do is go outside and see a bunch of “whities” and their worldview is confirmed…”

Likewise, there is a tendency in the US official media to soft-pedal on the black-on-white crime, deliberately dismissing or denying any racial hatred regardless how explicit the evidence might be. Just like in case of Russian judiciary refusing to recognize “Kill the darkies!” cries as racially motivated, in the US there are numerous examples of well documented “Kill the whities!” cries excluded from evidence in courts.

Can one of this thread that is taking the line that the violence in Russia is no different than anywhere else please explain to me where a government/legislative official in the West is justifying taking violent action against people walking the street minding their own business. I mean, we can go back and forth with the comparisons, but nowhere in the West is there 60% (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230158.stm) of any ethnic group who has been violently attacked and then, per the video in the original posts, Nazi-linked legislators justifying the situation. A couple of skinheads in Norway, black youths in American urban areas or even hilarious militia movements in the U.S. are just convenient topics for Russia apologists to bring up because on the surface there are some very superficial similarities. But any time you point out the obvious differences, the Russia apologist begins the But Whatabouts and changes the subject. It’d all be pretty entertaining if we weren’t seeing people torchured half to death on friggin traincars just outside of Moscow.

So what are the “obvious differences” between suppressing evidence of racial hatred in white-on-dark crimes in Russia and black-on-white crimes in the US?

Sean,

Since I’ve begun reading the Oushakine book (which is growing on me, you’ll be happy to learn) I think I have a better understanding of the dynamics of racism in Russia. I still think that all racism is borne out of the same things (ignorance, fear, etc.)and result in the same unconstructive crap. But factors that allow it to flourish might have their own particular flavor…

“I tend to agree except that all your examples: inner city, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Mexico and Congo are hardly stable environments.”

Mexico? It’s an industrialized, pretty much middle-of-the-road country in just about all respects. You can’t compare it with Congo in terms of stability. It’s not all that different from the US (relative to Congo).

IMO one big big reason why young men in Western Europe don’t tend to do this thing as much (although it should be noted that IIRC Sweden’s rate of attacks on racial minorities is about on a par with Russia’s per capita) is that, due to Western Europe’s well-functioning system of law enforcement, they are likely to get caught.

This just in.

Obama’s newly appointed Enironment Tsar was organizing rallies for Mumia Abu-Jamal. Which means a high US gov. official is a supporter of the convict in racially motivated murder case.

This just in!!!

“President Barack Obama’s adviser Van Jones has resigned amid controversy over past inflammatory statements, the White House said early Sunday.”

So we now have one less race hustler among the US power officials.

One day you’ll realize the farcical conservative v. liberal “war” is really just a form of managed democracy.

Oh Boy, Sean, you are diving off the deep conspiratorial end, aren’t you? Even semantically, in a managed democracy some entity has to manage it. So who is managing the farcical war? Skulls and Bones? Corporate ruling class? It is just as united and monolithic as modern day proletariat. Still reading the Iron Heel?

That Jones guy was a 9/11 truther. Obama is not ball-less – he is arrogantly mindless thinking (or rather not thinking) this would work.

still believe that feudalism exists

Are you really that black and white? No wonder that I have not noticed any progress over the last 5 years or so. There is nothing to believe in, Sean. Unlike what you were taught by ideologues that formed you – “isms” are just mental constructs for classification purposes. There is no need to believe in inches or meters.

And speaking of obstinacy – aren’t you the one still clasping to the black and white class struggle model with no regard that most of the classes in that model don’t even exist anymore? It’s not even 1960-s anymore.

The same courtesy, meaning, making conclusions about you after reading your posts for two minutes? Not my idea of a fair assessment, but then again, I am not in academia like you are; which coincidently explains your preoccupation with somebody else’s style – never yours, no matter how crude it gets at times. But then again, left never had much sophistication.

But, Sean, in all fairness, I am here very seldom and mostly for comments from others – that are sadly getting thin – and to get some pleasure from raffling your feathers once in a while.

“There is nothing to believe in, Sean.”

Totally missing Sean’s point, which was that you’re a lunatic.

Talking about missing points, my point was about racial politics and subversion of judicial process.

I think it was quite telling that everybody had something to say about racial hatred among Russian hoodlums but as soon as I brought up the subject of racial hatred among black US hoodlums there was complete silence, except FreddieBak who flatly stated there is absolutely nothing in common. Well, I think there are many things in common, and if we explore why black hoodlums in the US are getting a “break” when commiting racial crimes, we may understand much better why Russian hoodlums are getting similar “breaks”.

Just to be clear, I hold that troglodite Victorian view of Justice as blind and impartial: if ther is a Law and the Law is broken than the proper punishment must be administered. I think Russian white racists and US black racists must be sentenced to the full extend of the pertinent Laws. However, the modern world doesn’t follow that concept. In the US, the considerations of social justice and memory of the past wrongs agaist black people usually interfere to the effect that racial hatred is often excused and/or disregarded when blacks commit crimes against whites, no matter how strong the evidence might be. If we find such subversion of justice understandable in the US, why not in Russia?

Except for the skin color, same arguments in defence of the low-brow hoodlums apply to the Russian ones, all the way back to the slavery. Slavery was abolished at about the same time in Russia and the US, and I’d guess that majority of those Russian hoodlums come from slave families that were exploited, downtrodden, disregarded, mislead and abused for generations by Tsarist, Soviet and Oligarkh regimes in Russia.

Present day US justice comes down harshly on white racists but makes extra considerations for black racists (that is in reverse to the situation in 1950-s and considered a sign of social progress). Russian justice makes extra considerations for white racists. This is viewed as scary throwback to the 1950-s and denounced by the Western “progressive” types. Inthe process, specific Russian circumstaces are disregarded, such as that Russia was never a party to black slave trade, never had black slave plantations and thus doesn’t have a black “underclass”. However, Russia has proportionately much larger white “underclass”, that went through many similar trials and tribulations. If the modern principle of Social Justice dictates that laws can be interpreted differently for certain “underclass” citizens, why can’t Russian state apply that principle to its own “underclass” citizens? Because they look like “white majority”?

wauw, seriously Candide! i mean seriously? “how the black hoodlums get away unpunished with racisme” seriously!? off all the things that could be said about race issues and the justice system in the US, you choose black against white racism, and how the US justice system just all ways let those black hoodlums get away with everything. I mean seriously.

I’m a very long time lurker on this blog, I still enjoy the post, but the comment section have degenerated into I really don’t know what. It even makes me miss Averko. It’s a shame really because a good comment section really adds to a blog. Here it seriously subtracts.

fred,

Obviously you didn’t understand my whole point but thanks for a good question.

No, the justice system doesn’t let go completely, either in the US or Russia. Those who persist in their racist ways eventually do get the full punishment. First time racist offenders often get off easy. In Russia those offenders who get a break are white skin, in the US they are black. I was careful to point out that 50 years ago in the US it was white racist criminals getting the break. So the major issue here is not even race but subversion of justice.