Volgograd Obama
By Sean at 22 July, 2009, 8:53 am
They’re calling him the “Volgograd Obama.” Joachim Crima, 37, native of Guinea-Bissau, former watermelon seller, and graduate of Volgograd Pedagogical University has thrown his hat into the region’s municipal election. If elected, which is a long shot, Crima would become Russia’s first black elected official. “I was born in Africa, but I have lived in the district for 12 years and feel practically Russian. I have a son here and this is why I cannot be indifferent to the fate of the region,” he told the press. Crima, who has adopted the name Vasilii Ivanovich, promises “to toil like a negro” for his constituents. “I want to make the lives of people who I consider my compatriots better. I am ready to work from morning until evening to resolve their problems.” In fact, “Will toil like a negro” has become his election slogan.
Political commentators aren’t taking the African seriously and see his campaign as nothing more than “a product of pre-election tactic with the purpose of taking votes from the United Russia candidate.” “I think that this is a case of pure political exoticism” Alexander Strizoe told V1.ru. “I don’t rule out that several forces hope to take some of the votes away from United Russia by promoting a black candidate. However, I don’t think that there is a chance of victory. Our population is traditional. It only votes for its own kind. In order to win the support of our voters, it’s necessary to be a leader of public opinion. I don’t think it’s possible for a native of Guinea-Bissau to be the spokesman for the people’s aspirations.”
As for the racist overtones of the slogan “toil like a negro,” Gennady Shaikhullin, the chairman of the provincial electoral commission, sees “nothing that could treated as inflaming racial, religious, or any kind of hatred.” Shaikhullin thinks the slogan is of poor taste but the “context of this expression supposes that a person who promises to “toil like a negro” takes up the responsibility to work more and with greater intensity.”
I’m not sure how Crima will pull votes away from United Russia since naturally I can’t imagine Russians voting for an African enough to matter if his candidacy is indeed genuine. And if it is, I hope his presence at least rocks the political boat. Even if it’s just a little bit.
Nevertheless, some of the responses to the V1.ru article are noteworthy. They are a mixture of support, fascination, and flat out racism. Ilya Lezin says, “Our corrupt officials won’t allow a Afro-Russian into the government!” Another named Dok writes “Vasilli Ivanovich as he calls himself (I’ve known him for five years) is a good negro but as the head of the district???” Irinka says “A black with a high intellect. I’ve read that its even higher than a penguin.” Others, of course, are simply skeptical and even a bit disappointed by Crima’s “selling his soul.” On RUpor.info, one commentator writes, “Every summer this black sells watermelons not far from the city Volzhskii on the way to Srenaya Akhtuba. He’s legendary. All of Volgograd knows and loves him. And just imagine, you sold your soul to be a slave to political consultants. Vasia, Vasia . . .”
Some are impressed by his vow to “toil like a negro” if elected. Entrepreneur writes, “He used to work for me at the Voroshilov market as a loader! In general, he has a good education with the right world view. In regard to “toil like a negro” . . . he is really very hard working, especially after the birth of a child!! I happily support his ambition and wish him success!” Another, RVS writes, “In the Far East the Chinese are very hard-working, and so are our Negroes, so there’s nothing left for us but to guzzle tainted vodka, since we can’t work. Strange kind of love we have to all things foreign, comrades.” MaksimVI sums his views up quite simple, “Tolerance is evil. We say NO to blacks.”
I happen to share Sergei’s response to the racism on the forum. He writes in response to Irinka above, “I would express it differently: A black person of average intelligence is much higher that the typical visitor of Russian Internet forums.” And how.
I hope to one day sport my own “Volgograd Obama” T-shirt. Go Vasilii Ivanovich!
Thanks to Evgeny for the article.
In the Far East the Chinese are very hard-working, and so are our Negroes, so there's nothing left for us but to guzzle tainted vodka, since we can't work. Strange kind of love we have to all things foreign
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Sean, you should see whether <a href="http://sholademi.livejournal.com/Samson Sholademi" (ZheZhe’s Obama, if you will) has weighed in on this. As an Afro-Russian who has been involved in bol’shaia politika in the past (he was one of the bloggers involved in raising the profile of TsentrIzbirKom and it’s head during the last election cycle), his opinion on this would be interesting.
Lyndon, the link’s all messed up. Can you post it again?
Actually, he hasn’t addressed it. Though I will follow his blog. Thanks.
Sorry. Proper link is here.
“Toil like a Negro”. Lol.
I’d vote for him.
Small correction. It’s not the Negroes who drink fake vodka and stop working. He is referring to the notion that since only foreigners are working hard (we knew of the Chinese in the Far, now the Negroes in our region), so [white] Russians don’t have anything left to do except drink fake vodka because they can’t work.
No need to counter racism with Russophobia.
I see you are on a roll, Anatoly…
Note, note, note… there’s no political correctness as an institution. Frames for racism are different then. It’s good that Vasily Crima doesn’t make a big fuss of his skin colour. It means, he is on the right way to establish good relationships with people.
Sean! You should say “hat tip to Evgeny,” not this ‘thanks’ stuff!
It’s like in Shaun of the Dead, when Shaun says ‘hand me some shotgun bullets’ and Ed corrects him, saying, ‘call them shells.’
Call them shells, Sean. Please. It’s *cooler* that way.
Anatoly, thanks for the translation correction. I made the changes.
Kevin, I’m just uncool. I guess.
“The Chinese in the Far East are very hard working. We have blacks that stay with us only to devour fake vodka and now can’t work. It’s strange for us to have love for foreigners, comrades.”
Sean, I think you garbled the translation completely. I think it should be,
“In the Far East the Chinese are very hard-working, and so are our Negroes, so there’s nothing left for us but to guzzle tainted vodka, since we can’t work. Strange kind of love we have to all things foreign (meaning love only to bad things but not the good ones)…”
Well a third time’s a charm. Thanks for the correction Candide. I’ll replace my garbled one with yours, if you don’t mind.
Damn Russian language. I’ll never master it. Anatoly can report me once more to the Anti-Russian Defamation League.
‘Vasiliy Ivanovich’ just gotta be a cheeky reference to Chapaev jokes, such as this:
Fantomas sneaks to Mao Zedong’s deathbed, and takes off his mask. “Eh, Petka, fate sure scattered us all over”, says Mao. “You can say that again, Vasiliy Ivanovich,” responds Fantomas.
A guy at revolver.ru cited other Soviet joke:
When Petka and Vassily Ivanovich wandered in Geneva, they met a negro. “Who’s that?” asked Petka. “That’s Solzhenitsyn.” “Oh, how did they blacken the man!”
Hey, you made Foreign Policy’s Passport blog. Joshua Keating, eat your heart out:
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/07/22/volgograd_obama_aims_to_make_history
Speaking of hacks… Did you see the spin he put on the end of that piece?
I don’t think that Barack Obama ‘toils like a negro’.
Note, note, note… there’s no political correctness as an institution. Frames for racism are different then.
Very convenient. Society sets norms of attitudes, so individual racist bigots are absolved of shame and responsibility for things they say. And most importantly, it apparently absolves everybody from responsibility to call bigotry for what it is and confront it. Strangely, this aspect of freedom of speech seems to be the only one Russian culture accepts.
Every time I go to Russia and am faced with otherwise intelligent and caring people spit out some noxious racist (replace with any other type of bigotry) commentary without even realizing how neanderthalean they look, I wonder if political correctness is such a bad thing.
It’s no different then table manners that need to be taught. Although I’d take a dinner table burper over a typical bigot, chances are there are the same people.
Speaking of hacks… Did you see the spin he put on the end of that piece?
I thought that comment – “spin” if you did not like it and want to call it a name without confronting it on merits – was spot on. It is very revealing what comes as a joke within a culture or a social group. A black running for office? How about a woman driving a car? Just listen to what most Russian men will tell you about it.
Russians are just lot more open about their bigotry.
Russians are just lot more open about their bigotry.
Are you a bigot? You comment seems to suggest that everyone is, and Russians are just honest about it. Did I get it right?
I am not sure people can be more or less open about their bigotry. If bigotry is a mindset, it will drive action and it is very difficult to act differently from what you are unless all you do is hide a single deviation from the mindset like a love affair for a religious bigot.
Just thought I made a search for Крима. He is a member of Единая Россия and there is an article about him on their website Жоаким Крима: Черный снаружи – белый внутри
Now, anyone thinks that the headline is racist? Sure made me cringe.
SO, not all Russians are bigots, but my sense is that those who are bigots don’t see anything wrong with their bigotry and that’s why they are more open about it. I’ve certainly seen evidence of that not only in Russia but in this very comment section itself.
Cyrill, I found your comment on political correctness quite insightful. The fact that hypocrisy is common does not render virtue irrelevant. (As the saying goes, “Hypocrisy is the homage which vice pays to virtue.”)
Yes, people went overboard with PC stuff. But it seems that for several years now there is a certain adolescent cool to being un-PC (even if those expressing un-PC thoughts ceased being adolescents dedades ago.)
Cyrill:
“And most importantly, it apparently absolves everybody from responsibility to call bigotry for what it is and confront it.”
I’m not a racist, that is, I think, that no one race or nationality is BETTER or WORSE than another. However, I ackonowledge and consider myself free to discuss that different races or nationalities are DIFFERENT in various aspects.
I do not feel any need whatsoever to confront what you call bigotry. I am free to behave this way, not the one you think is proper.
If you feel it’s wrong, I’m sorry. But it’s my freedom, I’m not ever going to refuse of it.
“Every time I go to Russia and am faced with otherwise intelligent and caring people spit out some noxious racist (replace with any other type of bigotry) commentary without even realizing how neanderthalean they look, I wonder if political correctness is such a bad thing.”
Seems you don’t understand that Political Correctness is like being a Racist.
When someone shouts racist slogans are not telling the truth. It is factually impossible that all blacks, whites, etc behave in a certain way, we are all different. Political Correctness is like that inverted. Everyone is good bla bla bla. Once again not telling the truth.
SO, not all Russians are bigots, but my sense is that those who are bigots don’t see anything wrong with their bigotry and that’s why they are more open about it.
I think it is a little different, Kolya. Because of complacency of people like Evgeny here, who does not feel any need to stand up for what he might think is right (conveniently right is substituted with legal) – bigots are empowered.
The fact that hypocrisy is common does not render virtue irrelevant.
I was discussing this exact issue with someone else last night and suddenly came up with a follow up question: If I am a bigot, but, in order to cover it I manage to act completely without bigotry – am I still a bigot? But also, is it altogether possible to achieve such a split personality state?
I do not feel any need whatsoever to confront what you call bigotry
Exactly my point.
Seems you don’t understand that Political Correctness is like being a Racist.
Seems you have missed my point completely.
Then you are a hypocrite too.
I have no idea.
Excellent quote, Kolya! Thanks.
Then you are a hypocrite too.
Even if such a schizophrenic state is attainable and sustainable, which is better: to be a bigot and act on one’s bigotry in words or deeds projecting it on others, or to be a bigot and a hypocrite and not affect others with bigotry?
Cyrill:
“Because of complacency of people like Evgeny here, who does not feel any need to stand up for what he might think is right (conveniently right is substituted with legal) – bigots are empowered.”
If I actually started to stand for my views, I would have to go and to blow up the Pentagon, the U.S. White House, the Kremlin and the White House in Moscow.
Perhaps, you wouldn’t like such course of events, though. I wonder, why. Life would be so much easier without all the politicians — the ugly blot on the face of our undivisible Human Civilization.
Yes, Evgeny, I am familiar with this trait: it’s all or nothing. If I can’t get it all the way I want, I am not going to waste my time on minor improvements. I wonder sometimes if it is genuine, a cover or a genuine cover.
Life would be so much easier without all the politicians
Are you sure you can handle life without all of those charged with or otherwise democratically (self-) appointed to make decisions for you?
A different subject that to me has similar overtones: with all the popular complaints about corruption, what percentage of Russian population would actually agree to completely eliminate all corruption had they happened to have a magic wand. Meaning – no paying off traffic cops, just to start.
Wait, he is a UR candidate. How is that supposed to work, exactly? Or is he a member of the party but not their candidate? Confused…
On the one hand, that UR page does make me cringe. I don’t even know what it would mean to be black on the inside, or white on the inside. I thought we were all red and slimey on the inside. Anyway, this is presented as though “white” characteristics are what people want in a leader, as though honestly and integrity and the ability to ensure your paycheck have a complexion. Also, oof, Ok, I know he is a watermelon farmer. And I know that Russians love their watermelons. But it while arguably a photo of a man and his profession, it does nothing to challenge any stereotypes. And the leadership of UR will give you and earful about the unfair stereotypes of Russians. So, it’s not like they’re blissfully unaware of stereotypes and why they are harmful.
On the other hand, thumbs up for supporting a black candidate. It’s not like they had to do it. And even if it is a worst case scenario farce, I can’t imagine that nothing productive can come if it. Racism and other types of discrimination are borne of ignorance, misplaced anger and fear. So, the solution is not lecturing people that racism is bad and can’t you see you’re all acting like neanderthals, which only puts people on the defensive. It is to give everyone equal opportunities and expectations. It sounds like he has a viable relationship with the community at any rate.
A black man who sell watermelons for a living decides to run for office. He gets to run for office. He has the support of the ruling party. That’s not the entire story but it seems like a few very crucial elements.
BTW, they’ve added something about him liveblogging? or something July 30…
I didn’t know he was a UR member until Cyrill gave that link. This was the first time I’ve seen it mentioned. Apparently, he’s becoming a “television star,” according to one article I read this morning. Every tv station wants to interview him.
I’ll certainly be looking to see what is planned for the 30th.
Do you still support him now that you know he’s a UR member?
I support the fact that he’s running and find it interesting. But support him politically? I have no idea what he stands for.
Cyrill:
It’s not “all or nothing”. But I wonder, why do I have to support THEIR society? Did anyone ask ME, if I want to support the project of headlong westernization of my country? Yes, I tolerate that process. But I am not going to be an active participant of it.
You assume that I share the same culture with you, but that assumption is wrong. And if I don’t see the society developing along the ways I prefer, I will stay with my own society of a single person. It’s my liberty.
Listen to this song, “The last warrior of the dead land”, it will help you to understand the mood (links to mp3 follow the lyrics):
http://orgius.ru/txt/pvmz.html
Cyrill:
In particular, I believe, that “political correctness” is a wrong and evil concept. Of course, I am not going to support it with my actions. However, I do not prevent other people from practicing PC, if they like. Because, as I said, everyone is free to become mad in one’s own way.
Cyrill:
Any way, it’s very strange, that you tell me “Man, you need to fight for that and that” and assume I will just accept that. It’s very naive, at best. Why for? I’m doing OK with what I have and what I do, and I don’t need anybody’s advice unless I ask for.
Cyrill:
And once more again, there are lots of Americans with very Russian understanding of living, who just take people as they are without demanding them to be anything special. And there’s a relative minority with their messianic ideas. But if we speak of the political elite, the percentage of people with messianic ideas is quite greater there, And it’s one of the major source of U.S.-Russia tensions.
IMHO.
I don’t even know what it would mean to be black on the inside, or white on the inside.
Poemless: This is an old cultural reference commonly attributed to Stalin labeling Mao as a radish – red outside, white inside. Later it was canonized in the movie Джентельмены удачи”. Also see common label for greens in the US: watermelons, i.e. green outside, red inside. However, this UR site one surely gets too far into racial bigotry without even noticing it.
Evgeny
Listen to this song, “The last warrior of the dead land”
One question: what are the “they” that killed everyone? Second question – you can’t be serious, can you? If you are referring to Russia being the land of the dead, well, I hate to break it for you, but that’s nobody else’s fault but Russians themselves. Get over it and stop blaming nefarious others.
In particular, I believe, that “political correctness” is a wrong and evil concept.
You sound like G W Bush. Just as simplistic and provincial. There are negative aspects of PC for sure, but what is wrong with the concept of not being a bigot towards people of other cultures, ethnic groups and races?
Any way, it’s very strange, that you tell me “Man, you need to fight for that and that” and assume I will just accept that.
I said no such thing. I only commented on how transparent your cover is.
On another note, could you please explain to me what I think is becoming a glaring contradiction in your position? On one hand you are denouncing “forced” westernization of Russia, but on the other hand you base most of your social positions on the core western principle of libertarian individuality – all but a dichotomy to “соборность” the fundamental concept of slavophile Russia.
Cyrill:
“One question: what are the “they” that killed everyone?”
Like what is the case with most songs of this band, spiritual treatment is the foremost. It’s intended not to give you straightforward answers, but to inspire your spirit to find them.
“On one hand you are denouncing “forced” westernization of Russia, but on the other hand you base most of your social positions on the core western principle of libertarian individuality”
That’s exactly the difference between the Third and the Fourth Ethical Systems, in Krylov’s treatment.
You are a follower of the Third Ethical System which sais “Others can treat you the way you treat them”. In your view, if you have a set of liberties, all other people in your society must have the same set. And everybody should be guaranteeing that.
But I’m a follower of the Fourth Ethical System which sais “Others can’t treat you a way you don’t treat them”. In my view, I have a set of liberties, because I fight to make them possible. If anyone violates my rights it’s first of all my trouble. And therefore, I expect people to fight for their rights, not merely to demand them.
In Krylov’s view, the trouble of Russia is that it attempts to implement the social system of the Third Ethical System, while it has the population following the Fourth Ethical System.
It’s not yet clear, what social institutions would best match the ethical base of the Fourth System.
Cyrill:
For example, that songs matches well other their song, “Presence”. Christian allusions are more than obvious there:
http://orgius.ru/txt/reki.html
(One thing, you may need to consult a monolangual theological dictionary that’s linked to the lyrics)
“One question: what are the “they” that killed everyone?”
Like what is the case with most songs of this band, spiritual treatment is the foremost. It’s intended not to give you straightforward answers, but to inspire your spirit to find them.
And look for answers not in the mirror but in some nefarious “them.” I have been exposed to so many calls from conspiracy theorists while doing radio, I finally noticed a common pattern: usage of “they” was through the roof.
Coincidently, Russian language contributes to this mindset with extensive usage of passive voice in common phrases.
That’s exactly the difference between the Third and the Fourth Ethical Systems, in Krylov’s treatment.
Вы, профессор, воля ваша, что-то нескладное придумали! Оно, может, и умно, но больно непонятно. Над вами потешаться будут. (с) М. Булгаков.
And how do you reconcile this constant drumbeat about nefarious westerners, bad politicians and other “they-thems” if this fourth ethical system of yours tells you that all your problems are your fault anyway?
I expect people to fight for their rights, not merely to demand them.
This is all fine and dandy and we have completed the circle. You expect everyone including yourself to fight for respective rights only and neither of you are expected to lift a finger to help each other. Sweet. There might be other explanations, but I can only see two so far: either all of you are too obtuse to see that civil rights are a joint effort, or, most likely, you think that rights is a zero-sum game and more rights for others mean less for you.
Hmmm, I think I found a good translation for the English “gobbledygook”: бердяевщина.
Cyrill:
“And how do you reconcile this constant drumbeat about nefarious westerners, bad politicians and other “they-thems” if this fourth ethical system of yours tells you that all your problems are your fault anyway?”
1) I am absolutely calm about the West. I have a military profession, so I am able to protect my homeland with weapons in hands, if needed.
2) Westerners are not nefarious. Their ethical system, like any ethical system, provides fair resolution of any issues. The West is doubtlessly GOOD, when it stays at its place.
3) If we look at Russia’s 90s, I would say that the fair share of responsibility for the economical collapse is: 70% must be blamed for B. Yeltsin’s team, and 30% for the Western institutions like IMF.
4) I’m also calm about any political issues. Politics is not what I like. It was hard for me to start caring about the international politics, and it will be harder to stop caring of it. But I will do it, very soon.
5) The theory of four ethical systems was proposed by Krylov in his 1995 work “Behaviour” (“Поведение”). The fourth ethical system is the one which suggests that a man must be able to care of himself. He must not allow to be treated like shit. When many people with such mood come together, they organize a union, allowing them to resist greater dangers together. That’s the basic idea of Russia.
6) It makes absolutely no difference what to believe in. I chose the Fourth Ethical System for its peculiar sounding. By the way, in his 1995 work Krylov has predicted Putin’s come to power in about 2000. Other Krylov’s prediction was the radical change of this system after 2015-2020s. It’s fun to see, if this will be realized.
Cyrill:
“and neither of you are expected to lift a finger to help each other”
Hey, don’t you think it’s over the top?
“civil rights are a joint effort”
Why? Please, explain your point. I do not see that.
In fact, I have an idea to organize a demonstration in Moscow, with the main claim to make the work of the Russian Customs Service more open and less corrupt.
IMHO, the Customs Service is one of the weaker joints in Russia’s infrastructure.
I believe, many people would support the idea of such demonstration, because the Customs Service affects everybody who ever bought anything abroad.
What entirely stops me is that I lack of legal skills. The aim of any demonstration is to improve anything. But I am unable to compose correct amendments to the laws, that in my view could help the situation. So it would be senseless, any way, except for spending time at fresh air. But what stops anyone from going for a walk individually?
The fourth ethical system is the one which suggests that a man must be able to care of himself. He must not allow to be treated like shit. When many people with such mood come together, they organize a union, allowing them to resist greater dangers together.
What’s new about this view to be “proposed” as a new ethical system in 1995?
That’s the basic idea of Russia.
You lost me there. The basic idea of Russia is a union? Fine, I was about to accept that when I saw this:
“civil rights are a joint effort”
Why? Please, explain your point. I do not see that.
You are loosing me, man. Unless you are actually trying to say that the basic idea of Russia is a union of like-minded men only, men of the same mood as yours?
IMHO, the Customs Service is one of the weaker joints in Russia’s infrastructure.
The status of the Customs Service et al is the consequence of the current power structure in the country. Customs duties account for a huge portion of the Federal budget of Russia. From 20% to, some say, close to 50% if export duties are accounted for.
Your demonstration will achieve nothing, since structural changes of the Russian State needs to be implemented to make customs less corrupt. Unfortunately, VVP created this monstrosity while building his “power vertical.” And it is only natural that Customs is such a rotten outfit. It is, in a sense, a return to feudal system when company captains had to buy their commands, or when appointed bureaucrats were supposed to forage their income off those they regulated. The system of “little napoleons” that Tolstoy so rallied against in War and Peace.
Russia always had this in one form or another and I am not sure why would you want to change a traditionally Russian institution and replace it with a completely Western phenomenon – less corruption by bureaucracy?
I’m sure that if something is more convenient for people and works more effectively, it should be implemented. And I don’t object taking good ideas from the West.
““civil rights are a joint effort””
“Why? Please, explain your point. I do not see that.”
“You are loosing me, man.”
The social system of Russia does not implement the fourth ethical system. According to Krylov, that’s a source of instability.
“Your demonstration will achieve nothing, since structural changes of the Russian State needs to be implemented to make customs less corrupt.”
That’s the answer to your unspoken question, why no political force here will bring this change — simply because no one is running a demonstration with such claims. While that’s the first ever step to such goal. They can say correct words, but do not even demand these changes. Surely they can’t implement them, be they in power.
But what if _we_ come and make that claim?
There’s certainly a grain there. I need to consider it.
p.s. I meant bringing changes to the Customs Service.
I don’t understand what are the “structural changes”, so I don’t take that idea, so far.
I don’t understand what are the “structural changes”, so I don’t take that idea, so far.
This whole edifice of Putin’s power vertical (ГМК – Государственный монополистический капитализм по Ленину) needs to be torn down.
Customs is an integral part of the Russian State. Quite an important part of it too. It is one of the major mechanisms of redistribution of wealth in Russia. Taxation does not work nearly as well as customs. It provides a nice chunk of federal budget as well as feeds a tremendous amount of people. Just legal customs duties make almost everything I saw in Russia cost significantly more then in the US. Eg: $13,000 for customs duties for an imported new Nissan that costs about $20,000 in the US at a dealer. Add to this all the kickbacks and outright bribery built in into every single imported item that is sold in Russia.
My point is you can demonstrate until your nose bleeds (figuratively or otherwise) – the way Russian society is structured now, that customs behemoth is not going anywhere. It is too important to the state budget, it is too important to untold legions that feed off it, you are the only one screwed but we have already established that your problems are yours alone.
Cyrill:
“but we have already established that your problems are yours alone.”
Surely they are.
Cyrill:
I understand your “structural reforms”. You want to pay less. It’s understandable desire.
I do not have a claim to pay less. But why can’t I make the payment in easy and convenient form? Why can’t I just use my credit card for that, without filling countless documents?
And this simple claim, if implemented, would IMHO ease the situation.
@Evgeny,
This is quite fascinating. What is this “radical change”?
Sublime Oblivion:
2025 — collapse of attempts to build western-style Capitalism, and establishment of a different social system, that would possibly implement the Fourth Ethical System.
http://warrax.net/behavior/00.html
Of course, I don’t call you to take that stuff for granted. But it’s (for my view of a non-expert) an interesting sociological work. Even if it’s wrong, at least it’s fun enough to spend time to read it.
At least, the real virtue of this work is that it describes civilizational blocks on our planet in terms different from what everyone else does or did.
Not sure if you find this inspiring, but I enjoy rare concepts on grounds of pure aesthetics, like one can enjoy a rare work of art.
“In terms of the First Ethical System there’s essentially no property, because nobody owns anything specific.
In terms of the Second Ethical System property mostly belongs to the society. It’s individuals who own it, but these individuals are deprived of the freedom to manage it, i.e. they depend on the society.
In terms of the Third Ethical System property is mostly owned by individuals. They have a right to manage it the way they find proper.
And finally, in terms of the Fourth Ethical System property belongs to the society. But the very society and its derivative — the state — are defined through people’s property. The society performs the role of the owner and keeper of that property. So, in that final case it could be said (metaphorically of course) that property is owned by itself.”
In many places it’s utterly sound, but in some places it sounds really cryptic.
There are only four ethical systems?
By the way, shouldn’t he be “the Volograd first black person to run for mayor in the US” rather than “the Volgograd Obama”?
Chris von Doom:
Of course, it’s only a simple theory. It’s naive to believe it explains everything. But it may be read for amusement, though.
Chris von Doom:
Krylov’s theory operates with the following concepts:
There are four ethical systems, which provide fair behaviour. There are four “reduced” versions of them: for Third Ethical System it’s “All must behave the way I do”, and for the Fourth Ethical System it’s “If I don’t have anything, nobody can have it”. (In Krylov’s view, the current Russia’s system is the union of the Third System and the reduced version of the Fourth System.)
There are also two possible systems which are not ethical i.e. not fair: Krylov calls them parasitism (“nobody can treat me the way I treat them”) and aggression (“I can treat them the way they don’t treat me”).
The theory is based on simple mathematics. In this sense, it’s close to socionics. Although, it’s simpler than socionics and makes greater claims. It’s no wonder it’s not universally accepted, but if you like socionics, you’ll like this theory, too.
Chris von Doom:
For example, in terms of Krylov’s classification, the recent Clinton-Biden disagreement regarding Russia would be treated as the conflict of the Third Ethical System (Clinton) and the reduced version of the Third Ethical System (Biden).
But again, IMHO it’s only interesting as a fascinating theory.
Thanks, Evgeny, it was an interesting read. I liked his classification system and thoughts on barbarism, and the predictions do not seem to be wrong so far. That said:
I still can’t really vision what kind of political economy a society based on the fourth ethic will have. Would you venture a guess, Evgeny?
Sean I think my (two attempted) posts were being eaten up by your anti-spam.
OK, third time lucky? (Abridged version)
@Evgeny,
I liked the book (his classification system and discussion of barbarism), but I find it hard to envision what kind of political economy a nation following the fourth ethical system will have. Would you venture a guess?
It seems that the spammer didn’t like the Russian. Damn russophobe spammer!
I still can’t really vision what kind of political economy a society based on the fourth ethic will have. Would you venture a guess, Evgeny?
I would second this request. In particular, how does this 4th system differ from the Marxist system of “общественная собственность”? And furthermore, how would it avoid the same pitfall of allowing those charged with management (in widest sense possible, including planning) of public property from trading their decision making power for graft?
I understand your “structural reforms”. You want to pay less. It’s understandable desire.
It is only a part of it, Evgeny. But not always. Sometimes we have to pay a lot no matter what.
Here is a good example from an adjacent area of law enforcement. Sometime in late 1990-s, Russian visitors I interpreted in the US (meetings, conferences and such) began to come with Credit Cards and began looking for car rentals. Initially they were completely dumbfounded by my comments “do not even think of paying off a highway patrol officer in California” (Other states can be different). Their initial reaction always been: “We will give him enough, everyone is for sale! Capitalism, baby!” It took me a while to drill into their minds that a CHP officer retires at 55 with, say 85% of salary and full health insurance for himself and spouse and has maybe another 30 years to live and how much would these cocky Russians would need to give him so he would risk all of it. I have plenty examples on the subject.
Another side of the same thing is Americans complaining about over payed police. And my usual reaction is – they will get their money either way and you’d rather not be on a shakedown street.
As for the State Monopolism of Mr. Putin and Co., any monopoly limits choice. Freedom to me is a function of choice. The fewer monopolies there are, the more freedom I have and that usually translates to better service and less cost to me, the consumer.
To bring this back to the Volgograd Obama and at least some value of political correctness: the above also applies to cultural coercion. When culture unreasonably limits choice (electing a black or a gay in Russia now or a black or a gay in US 40 years ago) it acts like a monopoly and restricts freedom. Including freedom of those that do not want a black to be elected only because he is black. Political correctness in this case acts like a tool that allows individual to notice self-imposed “bigoted” restrictions that ultimately restrict his own choice.
Sublime Oblivion:
A good example, as I understand, would be Western enterprises, workers of which are owners of some its portion.
Krylovs thought of expanding that model for the whole society.
Krylov wrote that 1995 work with his mother, who died since that time.
Currently Krylov promotes views of a Russian ethnic nationalist. I.e., that’s not in the frame of that 1995 work. E.g., one of his recent writings is:
http://krylov.livejournal.com/1885350.html
Krylov thinks of establishing the Russian state as that of a single ethnic group, effectively speaking in favour of post-Soviet collapse of Russia.
I don’t accept Krylov’s modern view.
I’m a follower of a movement of “red bricks” (like “just another brick in the wall”), that doesn’t support ethnic nationalism. I think I shouldn’t risk of describing basics of the “red brick” movement here. You would rightfully think I’m provoking you while actually I don’t have such an intention.
Cyrill: Your last commentary (“Here is a good example…”) would be good at any Russian political blog or forum. Strange it is, but there is still insufficient information of how does the western capitalism really work. The idea that Western policemen have much to lose is not obvious!
Considering your PC comment, well. There is actually a handful of blacks in Russia. 99% of people here did not have personal contacts with blacks. “Blacks” are unlikely to win not to due to any sort of limitations. But because they are not known to the public. If they want to play a more significant social role, they need to be more socially active, and achieve good results. That would work, I guess.
Similar story about gays. I don’t mind voting for a gay, if he’s a good professional and doesn’t manifest his sexual issues. If I vote for a man, I don’t need to know who does he sleep with. What I want to know is that he’s a good expert. And there’s no cultural limitation in that respect.
“Strange it is, but there is still insufficient information of how does the western capitalism really work.”
To state the obvious, there is no one Western capitalism, but rather many different models, ranging from Mexico to Brazil to Switzerland to Japan.
And they don’t appear to work.
Chris Von Doom:
Of course. And Russian capitalism is some subset of the world capitalism.
But any way, there are too much myths yet. The knowledge of the work of real-life social systems is always precious.
There are many myths about the U.S., and a lack of clear view why what works does work, and what doesn’t work doesn’t.
Cyrill:
I translated your comment about U.S. police in Russian and posted to the ru_ment community:
http://community.livejournal.com/ru_ment/75585.html
If you wanted to be heard, it’s the best place — a community of Russia’s militia men.
I understand you would do it better, but I tried to retain the idea.
“And they don’t appear to work.”
For lo the peoples of Capitalea did turn away from the magic space ponies, and did make graven images unto the False God of the Marxist Obama. And the magic space ponies did punish them by visiting plagues of locusts and high levels of unemployment and bankruptcy upon their homes. Only Cyril was spared, for only did he, the wise man who knows not iniquity, keep faith in the magic space ponies to the end.
Why do you call Obama a Marxist? Obama’s administration is rife with magic space pony peddlers.
Very good translation, Evgeny, except for сраные россияне (cocky – заносчивые) and the first sentence (несмотря ни на что). Шмон to me is search, not shakedown.
Do not heed the seductive whispers of Secretary of States Twinklehoof Clovermane, for she is a fallen magic space poney who wishes only your destruction and to lead you away from the True Pony Path.
Well, so far capitalism works MUCH better than all the other alternatives. Of course, I prefer the more humane versions (such as the ones we find in Scandinavia) of it, but as far as I know there are no viable alternatives to the market system. Not that I’m particularly happy about it, but neither I’m particularly happy about biological evolution (a beautiful and fascinating process that is also mercilessly brutal.) It’s just as stupid to oppose the market system as it is to oppose evolution. Rather than ideologies (I have the feeling that Sean disagrees with me here) these two are impersonal processes that evolved through the ages. Just like we can try to ameliorate the impersonal aspects of evolution that cause so much misery (disease, pain, the inevitability of death, and so on), we can try to ameliorate the more brutal aspects of the market system (gross inequality, crushing poverty.) And such amelioration attempts are definitely worth our while: they are neither trivial nor insignificant.
I am Joachim Crima, I am black, I am Russian, and I am running for the Municipal District in my town Volgograd in Motherland Russia.
Follow me on my page on Twitter at http://twitter.com/joachimcrima
Is this for real? Good Luck Joachim! I’m going to have to get a twitter account now, aren’t I?
So, how’s the watermelon crop on South Volga this year?
Candide, that was totally fucked up.
“It’s just as stupid to oppose the market system as it is to oppose evolution.”
Evolution is natural and unavoidable and the market system is neither. Many many (most) societies have not had a market-based economy.
How is it f’d-up to ask a watermelon farmer how his watermelons are doing?
@Evgeny,
Posted about Krylov’s last chapter – the part I was most impressed by – at Diasporas and Barbarians.