South Ossetia and Georgia Sling Genocidal Mud
By Sean at 5 September, 2008, 9:14 am
As I noted the other day, Teimuraz Khugaev, head prosecutor for the Ossetian government, announced that 1692 Ossetians were killed in the Georgian assault last month. Now the Public Commission on the Investigation of War Crimes in South Ossetia has published a list of the names, birth date, cause of death, place of burial of 311 victims. So far this is far below initial claims. However, the press release states that the list is still incomplete. One can assume that more names will added to the list in the coming days, if not weeks. Here is a translation of some of the entries (kindly provided by frequent SRB commenter Chrisius Courtappointedrussiafriendlius, formally known as Chrisius Maximus)
1. Ataev Alan Muratovich. b. 1971. Died in the course of military action. Buried in the yard of his home.
2. Kelekhsaev Murzaba V. b. 1944. Shot by Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
3. Petoev Albert S. b. 1943. Killed by explosion of BM 21 Grad shell. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
9. Tadtaev Sergei Lvovich. b. 1972. Burned to death in automobile hit by Georgian tank. Buried in school no. 5.
10. Kozaev Sukiko A. b. 1940. Died from wounds obtained during bombardment of city. Buried in Itrapis village.
30. Kharaszishvili Angelina Dmitrievna. b. 1974. Died during bombardment of city. Buried in Tbet village.
31. Chekhoev Abesalom V. b. 1967. Died during bombardment of city. Place of burial unknown.
32. Elbakieva Dina. b. 2005. Died during bombardment of city. Buried in Tbet village.
49. Maldzigov Sevastii Stepanovich. b. 1965. Killed by exploding BM 21 Grad shell. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
57. Bitarov Uruszmag. b. 1950. Died during bombardment. Buried in Zguderskii cemetary.
59. Dzhussoev Mair Zaurovich. b. 1971. Burned to death in automobile that had been covered in gasoline and ignited. Buried in Nagutin cemetery.
60. Dzhussoev Aslan Mairovich. 15 years old. Burned to death in automobile that had been covered in gasoline and ignited. Buried in Nagutin cemetery.
61. Dzhussoeva Dina. 14 years old. Burned to death in automobile that had been covered in gasoline and ignited. Buried in Nagutin cemetery.
85. Shanazarova Albina Chorshanbievna. 14 years old. Killed by Georgian sniper. Buried in Zguderskii cemetery.
98. Kisiev Ibragim Feliksovich. Killed during bombardment of Khetagurova village.
99. Doguzov Leonid Nikolaevich. Killed during bombardment of Satikar village.
122. Maldzigova Evgenia Nikolaevna. b. 1927. Killed by explosion of BM 21 Grad shell. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
128. Tedeev Vladimir Romanovich. b. 1948. Died from wounds obtained during bombardment of city. Buried in Kornis village.
129. Dzhioev Radion Zurabovich. b. 1984. Died from wounds obtained during bombardment of city. Buried in yard of his home.
152. Dzhabieva Zemfira Chermenovna. b. 1952. Died in course of military action. Place of burial unknown.
177. Ikaev Valerii Vladimirovich. b. 1958. Killed by sniper during the evacuation of Zarskoi Road.
182. Lalievna Valentina Sergeevna. b. 1940. Killed by sniper during the evacuation of Zarskoi Road.
209. Kadzhaeva Elina Kazbekovna. b. 1986. Wounded during shelling of her home. Burned to death. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
214. Galoeva Larisa Valikoevna. b. 1974. Killed by explosion of BM 21 Grad shell. Buried in Vladikazkaz.
238. Ikoeva Roza Viktorovna. b. 1936. Killed during bombardment of city. Buried in Tbet village.
257. Bekoev Alan Tuzarovich. b. 1974. Killed by explosion of BM 21 Grad shell. Buried in yard of his home.
270. Bagaeva Svetlana Georgievna. b. 1975. Killed when her automobile was fired upon. Buried in yard of her home.
290. Tskhovrebov Sebastian B. b. 1937. Killed during bombardment of Tbet village.
311. Dzakhov Valerii Borisovich. b. 1987. Killed by Georgian sniper during military action. Buried in Tbet village.
The Commission is also collecting evidence on the destruction of Ossetian historical monuments and culture that was destroyed by the Georgian attack. “The annihilation of a people’s culture,” says Commission member Zalina Medoeva, “means to go further that the physical annihilation of a people. After destroying Ossetian culture, the Georgian leadership aspired to destroy the memory of the people, to wipe them off the face of the land is proof of the Ossetian historical right in taking the territory for themselves.”
Sounds as if the Ossetian government is really going to run with this genocide claim.
The Georgians aren’t going to sit idle and not make their own charges of genocidal acts. In his joint press conference with US Vise President Dick Cheney, Mikheil Saakashvili called on the world to not accept the ethnic cleansing of Georgians from South Ossetia. He claimed that more than over the years 80% of Abkhazia and in the last few weeks two-thirds of Ossetia have been cleansed of Georgians. He added:
“If anybody would try to legalize it, or would accept what has happened, basically, it will be accepting of human tragedies of hundreds of thousands of people. Ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia took place not only against ethnic Georgians, but also against ethnic Ossetians, who were considered to be disloyal.”
“So I call on all the responsible nations of the world not only to [not] accept this, but to continue condemn[ing] it and to continue uphold[ing] international law and justice. On our part, we are [a] peace-loving nation; we’ll do our best to avoid violence and we are committed to [a] peaceful resolution of all the issues, as we are committee to dialogue with everybody internally and with all the nations in [the] neighborhood and worldwide.”
As for his commitment to a peaceful resolution of all the issues, isn’t it just a bit too late for that?
Popularity: 2% [?]
Comments
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
I still cannot understand your point … You are saying that if the Georgians massacred 300 people instead of 1600 they are good guys? Please clarify.
I still cannot understand your point … You are saying that if the Georgians massacred 300 people instead of 1600 they are good guys? Please clarify.
No.
Note that 59-61 appear to be a father and his two children immolated in a car somebody threw gasoline over and set on fire.
Oh, those Russians and their disproportionate responses!
Genocide is a word that is being tossed around a bit too freely. When you have any act of war involving a densely populated ethnic region, of course those people are going to be killed. But is that a war crime or genocide? I vote war crime – until you start segregating the population and then murder them with the idea of killing all of that ethnic group, you are not commiting genocide.
It should also be noted that genocide is always a war crime, but not all war crimes are genocide.
And of course, the use of the “G” word is becoming rather cynical and being flung around easily in this case, in response to Kosovo, where Russia feels that word or lable was used inappropriately.
Essentially, this seems like Russia/SO/Abkhazia saying “ok, you taught us the rules of the game – now let’s see how much YOU like it”.
The US/NATO/Georgian side is no less cynical either. Each side is trumping up their claims, to get what they want out of this. US wants more reasons to stick our noses into the region and Georgia wants more $$ and military hardware.
The thing is, “genocide” as a legal term is really broad and not what most people mean by the word.
Lifted from Wikipedia (with appropriate citations):
“A legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”
So does artillery fire into a city at night qualify?
I know it’s a war crime, but I think it falls short of the UN CPPCG definition.
It’s that “whole or in part” part of the definition that creates the difficulty. Practically any military conflict can be classed as genocide according to that definition. Did the French army try to kill Germans in part in WWII? Yes it did, German soldiers being part of the class of Germans.
Destroy … soldiers vs. soldiers does not constitute destroying in whole or in part.
There are more details that are required to meet that definition, and there are lengthy articles on the topic. When you consider what acts of Genocide have been recognized and tried by the UN, it is clear that Russia is using the word very cynically, as regards Tskhinvali.
This muddies the water by chasing the definition of “genocide” – the point was it’s cynical use by Russian authorities in a tit-for-tat type of exchange for Kosovo.
Perhaps would be better to hear your opinion on that, than to try to pin down the exact meaning and nature of “genocide”.
“Destroy … soldiers vs. soldiers does not constitute destroying in whole or in part.”
Why? Soldiers are part of the people. They weren’t grown from dragon’s teeth.
I’m sure Kosovo is a factor — but can you think of a conflict in the last 15 years or so in which “genocide” was not talked about? It’s fashionable, and it’s good PR for your side, because when most people hear the G-word they think “Holocaust.”
For the record.
Numbers are provided by “public commission” i.e. has no value in legal terms.
Just some info about web site they are published at
domain: OSETINFO.RU
type: CORPORATE
nserver: ns.masterhost.ru.
state: REGISTERED, DELEGATED
person: private person
phone: +7 495 2413153
e-mail: osetia@dflife.ru
registrar: REGISTRATOR-REG-RIPN
created: 2008.08.21
paid-till: 2009.08.21
source: TC-RIPN
So I won’t use it for anything except pure propaganda war.
BTW When Cheyney was talking about “peoples chain” he said 100.000 Georgians participated. He was interrupted!!! by Saak who said “No, there were 1.500.000!”
Both were wrong though. The exact number was well know before the event.
http://civil.ge/eng/category.php?id=87&gallery=24&photo=291
My knowledge of Georgian arithmetics allows me to say that they got (in Arabic numbers) 15.000 people
Genocide is not about numbers – one only has to look at the judgment in the Krstic case at the ICTY (it’s worth reading the dissenting judges opinions too). Neither provided proof of intent or thought whether the victims are registered (male) soldiers particularly relevant. So using the ‘new and improved’ formula based on the ICTY ruling, the Ossetes have a very good case.
Basically, if you are in a contested territory and do not claim you are a victim of genocide, you are a total looser.
A brave new (full of more sh*t) world indeed.
“Numbers are provided by “public commission” i.e. has no value in legal terms.”
How about value in the more-important factual terms?
By the way, Ger’s punishment in Hell for condemning Russia over this thing will be that these 311+ people will rise from the grave as zombies and hunt him for all eternity, shrapnel, charred flesh, and bits of gasoline dripping off of them as they stagger toward him, eyes vacant and arms outstretched, seeking Irish brains, with white glazed-over eyes that see not but guided by a unerring sense of revenge. In the Outback.
(I get so self-righteous after a few beers! Pora spat.)
Chris.
I think that an official report as the result of official criminal investigation would serve better for the case.
I don’t care about the case. I’m not partisan. I care about what happened.
Sorry, I think I misinterpreted your use of the word “case.” No offense, but your English is somewhat ambiguous at times. (My Russian is worse.)
Chris, keep in mind – I’m under viking influence and the good old days when I could practice my English – these days long gone
PS. I’m sure there are “legal” documents about most of the killed people over there. It’s just a routine. But those who have these documents – they have no means to “publish” them. And those (higher on the ladder) who could “publish” has no idea that it should be done ASAP. Unless Putin kicks their asses. But I think he is thinking about Sarah now.
About Tshinval
http://m-yu-sokolov.livejournal.com/474145.html?thread=25566753#t25566753
http://shurigin.livejournal.com/157558.html
дежавю
1992
Georgia Updates Casualty Figures
Civil Georgia, Tbilisi / 9 Sep.’08 / 19:12
The officially registered number of Georgian citizens killed in the conflict is 295, as of September 8, according to a report released by the Georgian government.
One hundred and eighty six of them are military and 109 – civilians. In a previous interim report, the number of civilian dead stood at 69.
According to the report, 14 Georgian soldiers are still missing.
Three journalists were also killed in the conflict – two locals and one Dutch cameraman.
http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19453