Aug
29
Satellite Images Show Ossetian Wrath
August 29, 2008 | 56 Comments
Today, Human Rights Watch released more evidence of what it calls “the widespread torching of ethnic Georgian villages inside South Ossetia.” According to satellite images provided by UNOSAT, the torching of five Georgian villages, Tamarasheni, Kekhvi, Kvemo Achabeti (Nizhnie Achaveti in Russian), Zemo Achabeti (Verkhnie Achaveti in Russian), and Kurta, occurred on August 10, 12, 13, 17, 19 and 22.
For some of the visual evidence collected by HRW, see its photo essay “Burning and Looting of Ethnic Georgian Villages in South Ossetia”
UNOSAT satellite photos are:
- Fires by date (high resolution, 3.3MB; low resolution, 1.6MB)
- Destroyed ethnic Georgian villages (high resolution, 26.7MB; low resolution, 8.5MB)
- Detailed satellite images of destroyed ethnic Georgian villages (10.2MB)
These acts of vengeance and ethnic cleansing were corroborated by Human Rights Watch researchers, Georgian refugees, and Ossetian militiamen “who openly admitted that the houses were being burned by their associates, explaining that the objective was to ensure that ethnic Georgians would not have the houses to return to.”
HRW describes the overall destruction as follows:
The damage shown in the ethnic Georgian villages is massive and concentrated. In Tamarasheni, UNOSAT’s experts counted a total of 177 buildings destroyed or severely damaged, accounting for almost all of the buildings in the town. In Kvemo Achabeti, there are 87 destroyed and 28 severely damaged buildings (115 total); in Zemo Achabeti, 56 destroyed and 21 severely damaged buildings (77 total); in Kurta, 123 destroyed and 21 severely damaged buildings (144 total); in Kekhvi, 109 destroyed and 44 severely damaged buildings (153 total); in Kemerti, 58 destroyed and 20 severely damaged buildings (78 total); and in Dzartsemi, 29 destroyed and 10 severely damaged buildings (39 total).
And here is a selection of Georgian witness accounts compiled by HRW:
“[The Ossetians] had cars outside and first looted everything they liked. Then they brought hay, put it in the house and ignited it. The house was burned in front of my eyes.”
– Zhuzhuna Chulukhidze, 76, resident of Zemo Achabeti“I was beaten and my house was looted by Ossetian militias three times during a single day. After they took everything and there was nothing more to loot, they brought petrol, poured it everywhere in the rooms and outside the house, and then put it on fire. They made me watch as my house was fully burned.”
– Ila Chulukhadze, 84, resident of Kvemo Achabeti“They [Ossetians] came several times to my house and took everything they liked. Once there was nothing else to take, they poured petrol and put it on fire. I watched how they burned my house as well as my neighbors’ houses.”
– Rezo Babutsidze, 80, resident of Kvemo Achabeti“Ossetians first took out everything they could from my house. Then they brought hay, put it in the house and put it on fire. They did not allow us to take even our documents. I saw how my house was completely burnt.”
– Tamar Khutsinashvili, 69, resident of Tamarasheni
Of the many media outlets addressing the crisis, I think Open Democracy’s Russia page has some of the more interesting articles. I especially recommend Tanya Lokshina’s “South Ossetia: Tskhinvali’s Apocalypse.” Here is a revealing passage about the ethnic situation:
Yesterday in the Georgian villages on this road, these houses were being torched by the dozen. Armed men in fatigues had gone on the rampage stealing furniture, rugs, TV sets, vacuum cleaners and crockery left behind by the owners. Laughing and shouting, the looters piled the stuff into the cars. The road, jammed with armoured personnel carriers and assorted vehicles of the Ossetian militias, was thick with smoke from exhaust fumes and burning houses. Our Niva jeep got hopelessly stuck, and walking along the road with my camera I took pictures half-blindly, almost randomly. A hysterical Georgian woman, flailing her arms beside the burning remains of what had been her home just a few hours ago, was cursing both the Ossetian militia and President Saakashvili. A frail old man with burned hands and singed hair was hopelessly trying to put out the hissing, smouldering boards with water from a small plastic bucket… A dark-haired fighter in camouflage grimacing: “Taking pictures? We’re burning these to make sure people have to houses to come back to. Otherwise, if they come back, there’ll be an enclave here again, and we can’t live with that. We answer blood with blood. What is happening here is an apocalypse. Do you understand? People are turning into animals. And there’s no way back.”
A drunken militiaman prods me with his gun: “Hey, are you Georgian?” Another physiognomist to deal with. Screaming over the roar of the tanks, I launch into a well-rehearsed string of obscenities: “Do I look like a f…ing Georgian, open your eyes, you moron, I’m Russian, f… it” As I expected, swearing works better than any identification document. Ten meters further on there is a ruined bank with the remains of a shiny cash machine – Georgia put loads of money into these enclave villages, clearly trying to show how good life could be if only South Ossetia put itself under Georgia’s wing: modern shopping centres, cafes, tennis courts, even a swimming pool… Today, the vestiges of this former prosperity only seem to provoke the looters even more.
A young guy in a dirty shirt and camouflage pants waves frantically: “Come here!” “What for?” “Come here, I said! I won’t hurt you!” The boy points to a wooden bench by the side of the road and sits down. “Are you a journalist? Take off your headscarf. You look a lot like a Georgian in it. They’ll do you in, and that would be a shame…” Cursing through my teeth, I rip off the scarf wrapped around my hair to keep the soot away. If and when I get back to Moscow, I’ll probably have to shave it all off. But better bald than dead, right? “
All this kind of puts all the geopolitical jabbering and jostling of the “Great Powers” into perspective.
Speaking of the Great Powers, a new set of potential tit for tats were reported today. Apparently, the EU is contemplating sanctions against Russia. The move is apparently being pushed by Poland, Latvia, and Estonia. The rest of Europe isn’t going to go along. French officials were quick to say that “we don’t foresee any sanctions decided on by the [upcoming] European Council.” Translated: someone shut those uppity former Soviet satellites up and get them to learn their place.
Vladimir Chizhov, Russia’s ambassador to the EU, also viewed sanctions as foolhardy and remote. ‘I highly doubt it might ever happen. It (imposing sanctions) would be more to the detriment of the EU than to Russia,’he said in a news conference.
The truth is, the EU and the United States don’t have any power to do anything. They can snarl, show their fangs, and bark but that’s about it. As Igor Lukes, a Professor in Russian and Eastern European Affairs at Boston University told the Christian Science Monitor,
“I just don’t see that the West in general or the United States in particular has any cards left to engage Russia in some strategic game. Cheney may have a well-deserved reputation for being hawkish, but the US is not going to confront Russia to maintain the territorial integrity of Georgia, and the Russians know it.”
All their threats, in Lukes’ words, “ring hollow.” He went on, “The Europeans won’t do anything to encourage a confrontation with Russia. They simply can’t afford to do it.”
No they can’t. According to Kommersant, rumors are swirling around Moscow that if the EU retaliates, Russia will simply turn off the oil spigot. Rumors they may be but does Europe really want to risk it with the winter coming in a few months?
The real question is whether the Georgia crisis really represents an “international turning point” as Seamus Milne suggests in the Guardian.
In my opinion, it’s far too soon to tell. If South Ossetia and Georgia are still an issue in six months, then I’ll give Milne some prescient street cred.
Finally, CNN has released a full English transcript of its interview with Putin. It’s about time.
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Comments
56 Comments so far
From Putin’s perspective, George W had a chance to stop the Georgian attack on Ossetia, but failed to do so. If true, President Bush either could not stop the Georgians, which seems unlikely, or he would not stop them which appears more likely. Bush, as Commander in Chief, must have been apprised of the situation on the ground as we had military advisors, right there. If Bush was able to stop the attack and failed to do so, for whatever ulterior motives, he must suffer the historical consequences of his inactions. I, for one, think it is a very sad state of affairs when I find the Russian Prime Minister to be a more credible witness than my own President. We could use a large dose of Glasnost, ourselves.
Ossetian Wrath would be a great name for a punk band.
Are there still punk bands? I feel so old.
I think its a better name for a death metal band.
I read somewhere that it was the Ossetians who gleefully helped themselves to the Ingush property when the latter were deported to Kazakhstan. Being Moscow’s favoured sons in an ethnically mixed area seems to have its benefits.
The truth is, the EU and the United States don’t have any power to do anything.
Not as governmental entities, no. But markets have a knack of ensuring that costs are allocated effectively, and Russia is going to find that its investment risk profile, which has been climbing ever steadily for the past 2 years, has just inched up a further notch. Nothing will harm Russia more than business getting more difficult, borrowing more costly, and investment more risky.
I, for one, think it is a very sad state of affairs when I find the Russian Prime Minister to be a more credible witness than my own President.
Americans preferring to believe a Russian leader over an American president is neither new or unique. I don’t think it says much at all about the state of affairs, though.
I had no idea that markets were so moral. How is China doing?
“I read somewhere”
What a great source.
“the Ossetians who gleefully helped themselves to the Ingush property when the latter were deported to Kazakhstan. ”
Let’s look at things from the Ossetian POV. Here we are surrounded by hostile neighbors. Fortunately, we have a big guy at our back. Unfortunately, these German guys led by some dude named Hitler have invaded in order to conquer the big guy (and exterminate his population) and our hostile neighbors are supporting them. Whatever will we do???? Jesus Christ.
Exactly!
So only some idiots in some governments would “invest” in Georgia. For real business – this is a failed state.
I haven’t heard that any “western” company is going to leave Russian business fields. Maybe some Polish or Latvian multinational corporations?
So only some idiots in some governments would “invest” in Georgia. For real business – this is a failed state.
Exactly.
I haven’t heard that any “western” company is going to leave Russian business fields. Maybe some Polish or Latvian multinational corporations?
Oh, they won’t leave. They’ll just insist on terms and conditions which will cost Russia more than it otherwise would.
Either you read some bullshit or you forgot the rest of story. And the rest of story is – when Checheni and Ingushi were deported their territory (as well as property) were “filled” with people from neighboring places – like Dagestan, Ossetia, Georgia (remember – Stalin was from Georgian town Gori. His statue is still there) etc. Many Russians were moved there as well.
So don’t make fast assumptions about that region. And when blaming Russians – always remember town of Gori in Georgia.
I had no idea that markets were so moral. How is China doing?
Whoever has suggested that markets are moral? Not me.
That was my point: governments can’t do anything to Russia as a moral response, but the markets will do plenty as an ammoral response.
What a great source.
I’m quite willing to be corrected, the words were from an Ingush with no doubt a huge axe to grind. I really don’t know.
But I find it interesting that rather than correcting me, you instead justify the Ossetian actions and accuse the Ingush of collaborating with the Nazis. You really have been in Moscow too long.
Either you read some bullshit or you forgot the rest of story.
So which is it? Bullshit, or an incomplete story?
Tim.
You might have missed it but Soviet Union had excellent business relations with Japan – and we are still “at war” de jure. And they were doing business whilst US company (in fact – US government) were “insisting”
So if British companies think they can “insists” – they are too optimistic about their value as partners.
That’s why Putin said what he said:”it’s pointless to try to intimidate anyone. We are not afraid, not at all. What’s needed is a realistic analysis of the situation, looking to the future so as to develop a normal relationship, with due regard for each other’s interests.”
But of course “west” is free to try to “insists”. As – again – Putin said to German news agency today “US and Western Europe are not the end of the World”….
I don’t know what you read, sorry.
back to HRW.
Would be interesting to compare with satellite images of Tshinvali. Before and after.
PS. usually victims of the ethnic cleansing don’t talk (dead do talk in Hollywood movies though)…
I don’t know what you read, sorry.
I told you what I read here. The you quoted me here.
You might have missed it but Soviet Union had excellent business relations with Japan – and we are still “at war” de jure. And they were doing business whilst US company (in fact – US government) were “insisting”
Funny you should mention Japanese companies. The Japanese consortium CTSD is nearing completion of the 2-train LNG terminal on Sakhalin Island. A 3rd train is at the very early stages of tender, and the only stumbling block to CTSD being almost guaranteed the work is that they have learned what doing business in Russia is like and will likely put an enormous contingency on the lump-sum, or insist on reimbursable commercial terms.
So if British companies think they can “insists” – they are too optimistic about their value as partners.
It’s not just the British. Japanese, American, Korean, German, Indian, Turkish: all businesses are rational (unless shackled to some government), and the price of doing business in Russia is climbing. Companies will insist (with or without inverted commas) on making a net margin of at least 20%, and if they can’t then they won’t do business.
“back to HRW. Would be interesting to compare with satellite images of Tshinvali. Before and after.
PS. usually victims of the ethnic cleansing don’t talk.”
There is no need for satellite pictures. It’s obvious to all that Tskinvali suffered enormous damage because of what the Georgian did to it. I assume that one of the problems with all those Georgian villages is that many houses there were torched and destroyed AFTER the official cease fire.
To ethnically clean a village does not mean that you kill everyone there. You can expel people of the “wrong” ethnicity, burn their houses, and so on.
I read the Wall Street Journal Europe on the plane from Germany last night and the article was exactly about the plunge in investment into Russia. It is not going to stop, but the slow down will hurt Russian companies that want to get more capital.
Actually it might be a good time to pick up some stock in RSX, which is near it’s year low of 37 dollars. The fund is heavily weighted in oil, which will probably continue its upward trend.
Wasn’t oil going downward lately?
I was dealing with them since 80s.
Funny thing was – I found that we were “at war” many years after that. It was CCCP at that time and no Google at all
Don’t worry, they learned how to do business in Russia (tough bastards)…
Is it? I doubt very much.
The fact that there won’t be any Georgian villages in S.Osetia after August 2008 – is obvious.
” – Милейший, не читайте советских газет перед обедом!
- Так других же нету.
- Вот никаких и не читайте” (с) Булгаков
“В России денег, как говна за баней” (с) народное творчество
if someone want to pull out – there will be someone to take his chair
Right, right. Let’s ignore media outfits that have been at the top of their profession covering markets for many decades and lets sing kumbaya since Russia is a very special country and rules of markets do not apply to it just because Putin said so.
since Russia is a very special country and rules of markets do not apply to it just because Putin said so.
An awful lot of Russians seem to think so. Like I said, they believe their own bullshit.
Cyrill, I suspect that I learned what four letters – KPMG – mean before you learned English. And I personally know people who have been at the top of their profession covering markets for many decades. And you know what? They were wrong about Russia 22 times out of 24 (the dead clock shows correct time twice a day as you know). Well maybe I was unlicky and there were better US professionals somewhere.
You see – there is Hollywood and there is NYSE. If you think there is a principal difference between them – I’m afraid you are wrong. Both use same method “На дурака не нужен нож – ему с три короба наврешь и делай с ним что хошь” etc… I hope you remember that song. A must for every 1st grade student at Harvard business school.
When did Putin say so?
TIM “An awful lot of Russians seem to think so. Like I said, they believe their own bullshit.”
Did Putin really say “rules of markets do not apply to Russia”? I have followed everything that I could that he has said for a number years now and I have never heard him suggest anything like that – on the contrary.
Almost all of us believe our own bullshit. However one of the admirable things about Putin is that he is fundamentally an ex military man (yes I know KGB) and sees things pretty much in black and white terms and says what he thinks very clearly. This is what makes him such an exceptional figure on the world stage. It is also what upsets western leaders and diplomats so much. He rarely bullshits. He is one of the few leaders in the world capable of holding his own with a group of hostile journalists for hours at a time without notes, without flannelling.
Western media have hesitated to say that Cheney was behind the attack on the 7th August. Not so Putin. Sarkozy thinks it is true but he dare not say it otherwise French interests in the USA would suddenly become accident prone, à la Executive Life after Chirac opposed the Iraq adventure.
There is almost certainly a political motive for Putin speaking out at this particular moment. He is clearly expecting a dramatic stunt to coincide with the Cheney visit and the Republican convention. Apparently 18 Nato ships are in the Black Sea. It is a dangerous time. Europe may be powerless but some of the men in charge in the USA are regrettably in a different category and capable of reckless intiatives to put it mildly. Saakashvili has just renounced a ceasefire dating back to 1994 that was agreed by the UN in Abkhazia.
It is pretty amazing that while NATO picks a quarrel with Russia to help Saakashvili in the Black Sea, allegedly to safeguard oil routes (and democracy), there were no ships available off Somalia to protect an oil tanker from pirates today.
To revisit the original topic for a moment, the looting and pillaging of Georgian villages is a direct equivalent of the looting of Baghdad after the liberation (yes, I do mean LIBERATION!). So where’s the OUTRAGE?
Nice informative post, Robert Harneis. I wouln’t be surprised if Dick Cheney wasn’t behind the 7 August attack. I wonder if the actual Commander-in-Chief was in the loop, or simply more pre-occupied with the girls volleyball theatrics. He can’t very well spill the beans if he doesn’t know them. After all, he and Putin can peer deeply into each others souls. Scary thought, all that firepower, er, relief supplies, in the Black Sea. It could go off like a Chinese firecracker factory if Cheney decides to light it up.
The New York Review of Books just made available a 2,500 words article by George Friedman, the Stratfor CEO, titled: Georgia and the Balance of Power.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21772
“Putin’s invasion revealed an open secret. While the United States is tied down in the Middle East, American guarantees have no value. This lesson is not for American consumption. It is something that, from the Russian point of view, the Ukrainians, the Balts, and the Central Asians need to digest. Indeed, it is a lesson Putin wants to transmit to Poland and the Czech Republic as well. …
The Russians knew that the United States would denounce their attack. This actually plays into Russian hands. The more vocal senior US leaders are, the greater the contrast with their inaction, and the Russians wanted to drive home the idea that American guarantees are empty talk.”
I liked Friedman’s statement “they (Russia) welcomed the opportunity to drive home the new reality” strong images, almost sexual. While we have our pants down in Iraq and Afganistan, we leave ourselves exposed, literally and figuratively. From Friedman’s perspective, Putin played this like a grandmaster chessplayer. Putin revealed American strategic weakness, namely, “While the U.S. is tied down in the Middle East, American quarantees have no value” Russia put our King in check, but Cheney still has his nuclear armed Queen, to play in this global game with very high stakes, indeed.
Learning the meaning of a four letter word at an early age is quite an impressive achievement, ivanov.
However, you failed to learn the difference between forecasting and statistics. The article I mentioned dealt with facts, not forecasting. It showed a decline in investment in Russia that is on the way, not being forecasted.
And no, I do not know if Putin ever said that market forces do not apply to Russia. But since you believe him when he talks about the Fox News interview, why not believe any phantom.
As for Russian leaders’ understanding of capitalist economics, I remember Medvedev, while still at Gazprom and a deputy PM, incredulously commenting about the Brits blocking Gazprom’s purchase of a British energy company. He thought the nature of capitalism was to create vertical monopolies. He seems about 100 years behind the curve. And Putin is no better.
Robert, when you are admiring Putin and his “military” past (a Stasi liaison is more like Money Peny), please do not forget to admire bribes he took being Sobchak’s deputy.
Candide, I’m outraged and shamed by the looting and burning of those Georgian villages. The Russians should have acted with vigor and force to stop such crimes as soon as they saw them. (It goes without saying that the Americans should have stopped the looting in Baghdad when they saw it.)
Kolya, I agree to pay for the doktor to treat George Friedman. Though I’m afraid it’s too late
Yes I tend to believe him.
But I have no reasons to believe in your bs. And it was your phantom “rules of markets do not apply to it just because Putin said so”, wasn’t it?
According to the UNOSAT PDF file I downloaded, Tskhinvali suffered substantial damaged but, of course, much less than what the Ossetians and Russians were claiming. Not all damage can be seen via satellite photos (for instance, damaged caused by tank shells that entered the side of a building with an intact roof), but it gives a pretty good approximation of the extent of the damage–especially when we consider that most of the damage was not caused by tanks but by artillery coming from above.
According to UNOSAT, 5 percent of Tskhinvali’s buildings suffered damage (out of an approx. total of 4211 buildings, 175 were destroyed and 55 partially damaged.)
The damage in Gori was much much lighter: 33 buildings were damaged (either destroyed or damaged.)
Kolya. Is it right that you have served in military? Or I mixed something?
Now tell me WHY US Army couldn’t stop looting? Keep in mind that it was local folk looting of …their own country.
Maybe after that you’ll understand why regular Russian army was so “slow” to stop paramilitary Osetians looting/destroying Georgian villages.
I also would like to see the report of HRW about damage in Tshinvali and other Osetian villages.
PS. There are reports of OSCE (ОБСЕ) observers that it was Georgians who started this. And this is not Russian TV or Putin. It is from Germans
OSZE-Beobachter machen Georgien schwere Vorwürfe
Die georgische Regierung am Pranger: Nach SPIEGEL-Informationen hat die OSZE Hinweise darauf, dass die Führung in Tiflis den Krieg mit Russland verschuldet hat. In Berlin beschäftigte man sich schon vor Monaten in internen Szenarien mit den Folgen einer aggressiveren Außenpolitik Moskaus.
Hamburg – In der Zentrale der Organisation für Sicherheit und Zusammenarbeit in Europa (OSZE) häufen sich offenbar Hinweise auf ein massives Fehlverhalten der georgischen Führung, das zum Ausbruch der Krise beigetragen hat. Nach Informationen des SPIEGEL sind auf informellen Kanälen Berichte von OSZE-Militärbeobachtern aus der Kaukasus-Region an verschiedene Regierungsstellen in Berlin gelangt.
Demnach habe Georgien den Militärschlag gegen Südossetien intensiv vorbereitet und seinen Angriff begonnen, bevor russische Panzer den Verbindungstunnel nach Südossetien befuhren. In den Berichten sei von möglichen georgischen Kriegsverbrechen die Rede. So berichten OSZE-Beobachter davon, dass die georgische Führung die südossetischen Zivilisten zur Schlafenszeit habe angreifen lassen.
(http://www.spiegel.de/dertag/pda/avantgo/artikel/0,1958,575396,00.html)
Yes, there is “but” and very big one.
I also downloaded Tshinvali’s “satellite image”
In fact it’s hand-made presentation of piles charts, dots and estimations based on …on what actually? HRW is, of course, much more credible source than Saakashvili, but … less then BBC or even Russian TV
However one of the admirable things about Putin is that he is fundamentally an ex military man (yes I know KGB) and sees things pretty much in black and white terms and says what he thinks very clearly.
This is normally what people complain about Bush!!
Ivanov, yes, I served in the US Army as an infantryman.
“Now tell me WHY US Army couldn’t stop looting?”
The Pentagon gave many excuses were given, but the US Army could have stopped the looting. If not all of it, at least a substantial amount.
And the same with the Russian Army just now. They could have been more active in stopping the looting. Yes, some of it would have taken place anyway, but a lot of it could have been stopped. It seems, though, that they didn’t try too hard (at least in the beginning) in stopping Ossetian irregulars from exacting some revenge.
The Pentagon gave many excuses were given, but the US Army could have stopped the looting. If not all of it, at least a substantial amount.
A friend of mine who was with the Royal Marines in Basra at the time said the reason they never stopped the looting was it would have entailed shooting unarmed civilians, albeit civilians with somebody else’s television in the arms. Aside from the soldiers being rather uncomfortable about doing this, it would have had a catastrophic effect on the image of the coaltion waging war on Saddam and not on the Iraqi people.
Perhaps the Americans had an alternative solution to prevent the looting, but that was the situation on the ground in Basra.
2 Kolya
“The purpose of this checkpoint is specifically to stop the Ossetian militias from entering Georgian villages on the Tskhinvali road. Its commanding officer, a Russian lieutenant colonel, shrugs phlegmatically: “We’re trying to stop the looters.”
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/29/russia19718.htm
Also would be interesting for you
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127377&page=10
“В Цхинвали по подозрению в мародерстве задержаны около 60 человек, сообщает в субботу РИА Новости со ссылкой на временно исполняющего обязанности министра внутренних дел Южной Осетии Юрия Буколова.”
http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/30/marodeur/
Also good to read
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=140546
“Candide, I’m outraged and shamed by the looting and burning of those Georgian villages. The Russians should have acted with vigor and force to stop such crimes as soon as they saw them.”
But then the Ossetians/Chechens/Cossacks may start shooting Russians…
Kolya,
Anytime anywhere the army is called to stop the civilian unrest, the picture is always the same: army units marching, taking positions and firing on crowds of civilians, picking up arms, marching and firing, again and again… Is that what you wanted to see in Baghdad or Tskhinvali?
To give a perspective, South Ossetia population is 100,000 and Baghdad is 7,000,000.
Ivanov, I don’t dispute that the Russian Army prevented looting. From what I read, though, it was not done soon enough. One of the first mistakes was not make it perfectly clear to the Osseitian, Chechen and Cossack irregulars that from day one there will be zero tolerance for looting. If any of those pillagers decide to shoot, treat them hostile enemy soldiers and court martial any captured irregulars.
Candide, for a disciplined army large scale looting is actually not that hard to stop. Does that mean that there will be some casualties? Yes, but pillagers are interested in pillaging, not in risking their lives by fighting against disciplined forces. Pillagers are not patriotic insurgents–they’ll disperse rather quickly. History, of course, is replete with examples of pillage, burning and looting. But there are many examples in which victorious armies prevented most pillaging and looting. In other words, I’m not being a naive arm chair soldier. It can be done and it has been done MANY times.
The presence of wide scale pillaging usually means that either (1) the victorious forces are tolerant of such “tradition” and sort of turn a blind eye to it, (2) commanders purposefully let it happen for the sake or revenge or to terrorize the vanquished population, or (3) the forces consist of a undisciplined troops with weak leadership.
One of the first mistakes was not make it perfectly clear to the Osseitian, Chechen and Cossack irregulars that from day one there will be zero tolerance for looting.
Kolya, I respect the fact that you have military experience, but briefing irregular forces on intolerance for looting is like briefing politicians on intolerance for insincerity.
What do you think the reaction would be in Ossetia and Chechnya if the Russians started fighting Ossetians and Chechens?
Plus, Tim speaks truth.
The Ossetians, Chechens, and Cossacks, being premodern peoples, are fighting the old-fashioned, premodern way as was done of olde. Homer would be proud. Whoever heard of an ethnic conflict without looting?
Kolya.
As military man to military man.
1. Could you please make yourself more accurate. What day – by your order – should be “day one”?
2. Do you have experience in mountains warfare?
I don’t know what you were taught at your drills but believe me – IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE. At that place, at that time and with that forces Russia had. It’s easy to draw red and blue lines on the map and play clever strategy. It’s a little bit more difficult to follow these lines on the ground.
PS. I have accounts from the guys who WERE there, on the ground. And I know the situation with our troops – I mean how they are “trained” and “equipped”. And I’m really surprised by their performance (not that much as Georgians and their US, French and other instructors though
)
PS. Kolya, you forget to add 4th reason. There more “pillagers” than troops to stop them. Especially if these “pillagers” are Chechens driving BMPs…
Это – Кавказ, Kolya.
“…there are many examples in which victorious armies prevented most pillaging and looting.”
For instance?
Damm! My fairly detailed reply to several of you was apparently destroyed when I left the computer because of a friend stopped by.
(It’s hard to be believe that in the era of virtual reality and the internet some people rudely insist on dropping by in person!).
I’ll rewrite something later, but it will be briefer.
You should ban that friend!!! For a week or two!
Wasn’t FDI supposed to flee Russia after the Khordokovsky show? It is far to early to tell (as one of you mentioned earlier).
What does it take for established western companies to abandon a market of ~150 million people? Could Russia survive the withdrawal of, for example, IKEA*?
I was under the impression that Medvyedev’s central policy of his Presidency was to clean up corruption, institutional and ‘other’ so as to keep the $$$ rolling in? Won’t the relevant ’success’ of this policy be the prime factor in staying or going for foreign businesses? Cunningly, I read that Russia is making major inroads into Libya: http://www.bbj.hu/news/news_38541_russia%2Blibya%2Bseal%2Bdebt%2Baccord%2Bplan%2Barms%2Bdeals%2B-%2Bupdate.html
though I wonder what impact the recently annouced reparations by Italy will have on this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7589557.stm
*Which in itself is a dastardly swedish plot to take out the Russian carpentry economy