The Aftermath: Mayhem, Marauders, and Cluster Bombs
By Sean at 16 August, 2008, 7:04 am
The other day I addressed the looting and mayhem Ossetian militias on waging on Georgians. It is still difficult to assess the scope of this violence but Gori appears to be a center of activity. Russian troops, according to one report, have cordoned off the city, virtually locking out Georgian police. Unconfirmed eyewitnesses reports say “bands of South Ossetian armed men have been breaking down the gates of homes and stealing families’ cars” and there have been “break-ins in which the Ossetian men kidnap women in addition to taking the car.”
Most reports in the Western press report incidents along the lines of the following:
“It’s impossible to live like this, with this fear,” said one old Georgian man yesterday, nervously wheeling a wooden barrow stacked with his family’s meager belongings out through the Russian cordon that ringed Gori and towards the Georgian lines.
“What you have seen in the town is nothing, believe me,” he insisted. “With your own eyes you must see the evil they have done in the villages, burning and killing.”
Time and again civilians abandoning their homes around Gori give similar accounts. How, having survived firefights and shelling between Georgian and Russian forces, they were then subjected, they say, to a frenzy of murder, rape, looting and the torching of their property by roaming bands of crazed militiamen, many of them drunk. Most insist the militias’ actions were carried out under the gaze of the Russian Army.
Idrak Abbasov, a journalist for the Institute for War and Peace Reporting provides this interesting anecdote from Gori:
On August 15, there were reports that the Russian military remained in the Black Sea port of Poti, the western town of Senaki and the central town of Gori.
The previous day, I was able to get into Gori and saw terrifying scenes of exultant pro-Russian fighters rampaging through a city apparently empty of civilians.
I got in quite by chance. A Russian tank commander I spoke to befriended me because we both come from the same city, the Azerbaijani capital, Baku.
That afternoon, I took my chances walking past the last Georgian roadblock on the road to Gori. I was stopped by Russian soldiers and brought to their commander.
The commander checked my documents and learning that I was from Baku said he was born there himself. He returned me my documents and my camera and told the soldiers, “Don’t touch him, he’s my compatriot.”
The officer asked me about Baku, how life was there and how the city had changed.
Then he escorted me into Gori on his tank and warned not to wander off.
The city was burning and the firing was continuous. There were lots of Russian soldiers there and even more irregular fighters with white armbands.
I was told that soldiers had been brought here from Chechnya. There were fighters of several Caucasian nationalities. I didn’t see a single civilian. All around was smoke and the smell of gunfire. Everyone was celebrating victory, congratulating one another and asking each other loudly when they should advance.
My mobile phone rang. My editor was calling from Baku. Because of the non-stop firing and rumble of tanks, I couldn’t hear anything and I moved away from my protectors in the tank by 20 or 25 metres to talk to him. I sheltered in some bushes and began to talk to my editor.
At that moment, some men with white armbands seized my phone. They threw me on the ground and levelled their guns at me and shouted, “Who are you? Whose side are you on?”
I was saved by my minder from Baku who arrived on the scene and told them that I was “one of us”. A few seconds later and it might have been too late.
After that I was released, my attackers turned friendly, returned my phone and even asked to borrow it to call home. They thanked me by treating me to Pepsi and giving me cigarettes and a lighter.
One of them was a well-built tall North Caucasian in his thirties with white armbands on both arms. He was unshaven and unwashed and spoke with a strong accent. He told me, “The Georgians say we are raping women in Gori – but there aren’t any here! If they had been here, we’d have done it with pleasure!”
As to the criminality of Ossetian militias, he reports this scene:
Three Niva vans came out of Gori, full of armed men with white armbands. They got out of the cars and ran towards the journalists, firing several shots in the air and even some at the journalists.
Journalists began to run again. The militiamen stole three of the journalists’ cars. Tamar Urushadze, a correspondent for Georgian public television, had been talking live on air and was lightly wounded in the arm.
The people in the UNHCR vehicles also ran away and hid in the wood not far away.
All this happened in full view of the Russian soldiers who had introduced themselves as peacekeepers.
A few minutes later, remembering their peacekeeping role, the Russian soldiers did finally intervene and stop the irregulars with white armbands stealing the UN vehicles.
About an hour later, the Niva belonging to Imedi television channel was completely wrecked.
Finally, a Russian officer told him what I suspect is the case. “One Russian officer said that the Abkhaz and Ossetians were taking revenge on the Georgians. “They are doing just what you did in Tskhinvali and we cannot stop them,” he said.
In South Ossetia, authorities have announced a curfew for Tskhinvali and the death penalty for any “marauders.” “By laws of wartime, pillage is punished by execution,” an Ossetian enforcement officer told Kommersant. Two such marauders were gunned down in Java on Thursday. Attempts by Kommersant to get the names of those killed have been unsuccessful. Finally, the paper warns, “The bad news is that this effort against the pillagers could be used as pretext for killing those who disagree with today’s leadership of the breakaway republic of Georgia.”
IWPR is also reporting that about 8,000 of the estimated 30,000 Ossetians have returned to Tskhinvali to assess the damage to their homes. One refugee named Tatyana recounted her story to IWPR correspondent Alan Tskhurbayev. Tatyana, a kindergarten teacher in Tskhinvali, spent four days in a cellar to escape the Georgian assault. On the fourth day, a lull in the bombing allowed her and six other women to leave their shelter. They found a scene of the death and devastation. Their homes destroyed and bodies littered the streets. Luckily, a truck was picking up women and wounded and taking them to North Ossetia. Their journey north, however, was not easy. The truck came under attack but no one was hurt. “It’s no longer possible to live there, out homes are destroyed, as well as our lives,” she told Tskhurbayev. “I don’t know what will happen next, I just don’t understand.”
The numbers of how many Ossetian volunteers have joined militias are difficult to pin down. But Tskhurbayev reports the following:
In North Ossetia, volunteers started to sign up to go to South Ossetia as soon as the conflict broke out last week. Anyone aged between 20 and 45, who’s served in the Russian army, could be recruited. Around 500 volunteers crossed over to South Ossetia on the first day of the hostilities. Several days later, 10,000 volunteers were registered in Vladikavkaz. Many have been killed or wounded.
The casualty toll since 7 August is still to premature to say with any accuracy. North Ossetian hospitals have officially admitted 178 wounded, including 17 children.
The claim that 1,600 – 2,000 people were killed in South Ossetia is being questioned by Human Rights Watch. During a visit to Tskhinvali Regional Hospital, a doctor told the organization that 273 wounded, both military and civilians were treated there. Only 44 bodies were brought to the hospital since fighting broke out. The doctor “was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried, because the city morgue was not functioning due to the lack of electricity in the city.” HRW did not make any estimated of total casualties and only reported what it could verify.
Finally, Human Rights Watch has charged the Russias with using RBK-250 cluster bombs, each containing 30 PTAB 2.5M submunitions. According to HRW, bomb craters, wounds, and photograpgic evidence all point to their use. Russia is not the first to use cluster bombs. The Israelis used used them during the Labanon War in 2006. In two years, the UN has only managed to clean up half of unexploded orginance that riddles southern Lebanon. So far 207 nations have adopted the Convention on Cluster Munitions which bans the use, production, trade and stockpiling of the ordinance. Sadly, the countries that are the biggest users and stockpilers of cluster bombs are not party to the convention. Those countries are the United States, Russia, China, India, Brazil, Pakistan, and Israel.
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The Georgians also have stock of RBK-250s which can carry anti-personnel or anti-tank sub-munitions. PTAB 2.5Ms are anti-tank munitions (HEAT – High Explosive Anti Tank), NOT anti-personnel munitions.
This is the usual obfuscation by the Georgians (HRW) and the Media. If they were actually anti-personnel weapons, they would have said so, but knowing that most people associate cluster bombs with anti-personnel, it was left out. Kind of convenient as it just feeds the current georgian propaganda line.
The only way to make one of these go of is if you are really, really fat.
As for the UK banning cluster munitions, the use of thermobaric weapons is also illegal under UK law, but they got around this by just reclassified them:
The Times
http%3a//www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4187835.ece
“We no longer accept the term thermobaric [for the AGM-114N] as there is no internationally agreed definition,” said an MoD spokesman. “We call it an enhanced blast weapon.”
““It’s impossible to live like this, with this fear,” said one old Georgian man yesterday, nervously wheeling a wooden barrow stacked with his family’s meager belongings out through the Russian cordon that ringed Gori and towards the Georgian lines.”
What an obviously fabricated, or at least embellished scene. If you came across this dialogue in a novel, would you believe it? People don’t talk like this.
Okay, I admit that I’ve been highly critical of Saakashvili’s leadership. The strains of a war of his own making probably contributed to his distinctly unpresidential “run, duck, and cover” routine in Gori. But I’m not one of those who hesitates to give credit when credit is due. After the infamous Gori incident, Saakashvili has been trying hard to look presidential and dignified and, as this 17 second clip shows, he’s been succeeding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqSIXIwGLhI
(I’m sending the above clip from the BBC just in case–most of you probably already saw it.)
In two years, the UN has only managed to clean up half of unexploded orginance that riddles southern Lebabnon.
This was the whole idea, belatedly adopted by Israel in the last few days of the invasion: make anywhere south of the Litani river uninhabitable by plastering it with cluster bombs and minelets. Crude, but effective.
That was really funny Kolya.
I just hear on Irish radio that the Abkhaz have allegedly just taken over some power station there that provides electricity for the whole of Georgia.
““It’s impossible to live like this, with this fear,” said one old Georgian man yesterday
What an obviously fabricated, or at least embellished scene.”
No, not really….if one had Russian squadies stationed nearby who were at war with your country, I think the above would be a fair reflection of your feelings. Perhaps the statement itself has been altered, but the true sentiment? Hardly. Lets face it, Russian occupying forces do not have a great reputation.
Ger, its an old guy, with his “meager possessions” in a wheelbarrow (!), saying “it’s impossible to live like this, with this fear.” It’s like a Dickens novel, only badly written.
People don’t talk like this.
It could be a poor translation though.
“if one had Russian squadies stationed nearby who were at war with your country,”
The people doing the looting are not Russian squadies.
Ger, its an old guy, with his “meager possessions” in a wheelbarrow (!), saying “it’s impossible to live like this, with this fear.” It’s like a Dickens novel, only badly written.
People don’t talk like this.
It could be a poor translation though.”
I would agree its probably embellished. But the presence of Russian soldiers if you’re Georgian would simply have to be, ahem, disconcerting.
Take it from the Lithuanians, the Latvians, the Estonians, the Poles, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the Slovaks, who have had 50 years of experience with Russians. The Russians are murderers, thieves, and liars, liars, liars.
Did somebody fart in here?
“In two years, the UN has only managed to clean up half of unexploded orginance that riddles southern Lebabnon.
This was the whole idea, belatedly adopted by Israel in the last few days of the invasion: make anywhere south of the Litani river uninhabitable by plastering it with cluster bombs and minelets. Crude, but effective.”
It was barbaric and ineffective. Hezbollah got the population back into their villages within hours. The large number of small children killed and maimed initially was such that Unicef had to set up special cleared playgrounds so that children could play outside at all.
NATO handed over to Belgrade only recently its maps of where it dropped cluster munitions… So, is the average about 10 years?
As for Saakashvili eating his tie, is it a Georgian cultural thing/delicacy?* Clearly he prefers to eat his ties cold. I wonder under what circumstances he would eat them hot and how – bbq flame grilled style for example…
*NB, I apply ‘cultural thing’ to anything weird or generally unexplainable related to the origins of the person/s or event/s.
It was barbaric and ineffective. Hezbollah got the population back into their villages within hours.
From what I have been reading, this isn’t true. Given that Hizbollah have since refrained from attacking nothern Israel, presumably not through a change of heart, the evidence would suggest that Israel’s tactic was effective.
As for barbaric, I guess you are using a modern interpretation of the word.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Erm, no. Spouting Latin hurriedly pulled off Wikipedia might go down well in the navel-gazing common rooms of academia, but not in the virtual world of the internet, where people have infinite time and patience.
It was widely believed at the time, if not openly stated, that Israel dropped the cluster bombs to deny use of the area south of the Litani river to Hizbollah, thus preventing further attacks. The cluster bombs have since proven to be a nightmare to clear up, with Lebanese often complaining that the area is extremely hard to live in and move around in because of the cluster bombs. That Hezbollah has not launched any attacks on Israel since is indicative that the tactic was a success, if not definitive proof of it.
“Spouting Latin hurriedly pulled off Wikipedia”
I’m ABD, Tim.
“That Hezbollah has not launched any attacks on Israel since is indicative that the tactic was a success, if not definitive proof of it.”
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
You clearly have not the slightest idea what this phrase means, in particular the middle word.
There is an AP story that forced labour is being used in Tskhinvali.
“You clearly have not the slightest idea what this phrase means, in particular the middle word.”
After that, therefore because of that. A logical fallacy first described (as far as we know) by Aristotle, and then given a Latin name by the Romans and later the Scholastics. I wish I could remember the Greek name. Oh, where oh where is my copy of the Posterior Analytics when I need it.
I spent 6 years in graduate school studying Greek and German philosophy. We had basic logical fallacies way back when I was an undergrad, and I know one when I see one. Are you going to give me a lecture on Barbara now?
I spent 6 years in graduate school studying Greek and German philosophy.
You may well have done, but I am judging you on what you’re written here.
We had basic logical fallacies way back when I was an undergrad, and I know one when I see one.
Not on the evidence presented here.
After that, therefore because of that: the key word being “therefore” (ergo).
My actual words were:
“evidence would suggest” and “is indicative”, which are not synonymous with “therefore”.
If I was making a statement of fact, as opposed to a heavy implication, then you would be correct. But I most definitely was not making a statement of fact, deliberately avoiding the use of “therefore” or its synonyms, without which the logical fallacy you quoted is not valid.
Any engineering or maths student will know the difference between the symbol for “therefore” and the symbol for “implies that”; and as any science student will know, few experiments can be written up with the definite conclusion that “therefore” suggests, instead concluding with words along the lines of “considering the results and those of previous experiments, hypothesis XYZ can reasonably be assumed to be true”.
I’m just fucking with you Tim, no need to take it seriously. Although it is a logical fallacy.
I’m just in general kind of slightly annoyed by your frequent presentation of your interpretation of events as being True, rather than being your interpretation of events based on such-and-such evidence, which in your opinion is probably true, and the assumption that everybody who doesn’t agree with you must be a moron. You’re a very very smart guy, but you’re not omniscient or infallible or an expert on everything.
Except engineering, of course.
Except engineering, of course.
Trust me, I’m crap at that.
Tim “It was barbaric and ineffective. Hezbollah got the population back into their villages within hours.
From what I have been reading, this isn’t true. Given that Hizbollah have since refrained from attacking nothern Israel, presumably not through a change of heart, the evidence would suggest that Israel’s tactic was effective.
As for barbaric, I guess you are using a modern interpretation of the word.”
I suppose in the present situation we are all guilty of bias. However in this particular case I can assure you from close personal knowledge that showering the villages of southern Lebanon was, if not barbaric, an act that showed total indifference to the welfare of the local population to put it at its lowest. Choose your own word. True the aim was to create a human desert. It has totally failed to achieve this thanks to Hezbollah, not the then Lebanese government. It has also gone a long way to help Israel lose the communications war.
Hezbollah have not advised me (joke) or anybody else as to precisely why they have not recently attacked Israel but you should bear in mind that before the war their attacks were not that common either. See UN observers’ reports – these are the same UN observers some of whom the Israelis deliberately killed by shellfire. There is a peace keeping force that protects Lebanon a bit and cramps Hezbollahs style a bit. On the other hand Hezbollah has just entered the government in Lebanon and has a blocking minority. NATO and the US has been kept out of Lebanon so far. Diplomatic relations have been reopened with Syria. The anti Syrian investigation into the murder of General Hariri is at a standstill and discredited. There are accusations in the US media that it was a classic black flag operation and the culprits were either the CIA or Mossad. Russia is refurbishing its old naval bases on the Syrian coast to the north. I would have thought that they have no need to attack for the moment. It is the USA and the Israelis who are the “unsatisfied powers”.
You should bear in mind that Hezbollah is a highly disciplined organisation with a military wing that, as it demonstrated in repulsing Israel, is as good as anything in the West. They are a million miles from the stereotyped raghead anarchistic “terrorists” so dear to the western media. If you want a recognisable historical analogy for Hezbollah think in terms of the English Civil War, Oliver Cromwell’s Ironsides and the beginnings of the New Model Army or possible the Vietcong.
However in this particular case I can assure you from close personal knowledge that showering the villages of southern Lebanon was, if not barbaric, an act that showed total indifference to the welfare of the local population to put it at its lowest.
The same can be said of Hezbollah, who deliberately chose to fight from within civilian population areas knowing that Israel will cop merry hell from the world’s press when they caused the inevitable collateral damage. So, Israel didn’t care about Lebanese civilians, nor did Hezbollah. Civilians came second. How surprising.
It has totally failed to achieve this thanks to Hezbollah, not the then Lebanese government.
Well, no it hasn’t. The chap who was Best Man at my wedding is the defence attache to the British Embassy in Beirut, and he tells me some stuff. The area south of the Litani river has not been repopulated to anywhere near its pre-war levels, precisely because of the danger of the mines the Israelis dropped.
See UN observers’ reports – these are the same UN observers some of whom the Israelis deliberately killed by shellfire.
Do you have any evidence of Israeli intent in this regard? Or were the UN observers simply too damned stupid to leave?
On the other hand Hezbollah has just entered the government in Lebanon and has a blocking minority.
It’s worse than that: the Lebanese government is at the mercy of Hezbollah.
There are accusations in the US media that it was a classic black flag operation and the culprits were either the CIA or Mossad.
Yes, there are also accusations in the US media that the culprits of 9/11 were wither the CIA or Mossad.
You should bear in mind that Hezbollah is a highly disciplined organisation with a military wing that, as it demonstrated in repulsing Israel, is as good as anything in the West.
They are a formidable outfit all right, but I wouldn’t go so far as saying they are as good as anything in the west outside of their current non-regular operations inside Lebanon. If they tried to form a regular army and attack Israel in a conventional fashion, they’d be slaughtered. Which is probably why they won’t. But I do not underestimate their abilities, and by now Israel probably doesn’t either.
“The same can be said of Hezbollah, who deliberately chose to fight from within civilian population areas knowing that Israel will cop merry hell from the world’s press when they caused the inevitable collateral damage.”
Yes and no. They are the local population. The collateral damage may have been inevitable but the attack on Lebanon was as the West would call it in Georgia “disproportiate” and totally unneccessary. To call it collateral damage is being a bit kind to Israel when you yourself said the antipersonnel bombs were deliberate. So was the the rest of the damage.
Your best man must know that the shelling of the UN observation post was deliberate. What a fuss there would have been if the Russians had made a similar “mistake” and taken 16 days to agree to a ceasefire in dealing with its pesky little neighbour.
“disproportionate”!
The collateral damage may have been inevitable but the attack on Lebanon was as the West would call it in Georgia “disproportiate” and totally unneccessary.
Yes, and for the first time in recorded history an army was accused of using disporportionate and unecessary force at the same time as being jeered for losing.
Your best man must know that the shelling of the UN observation post was deliberate.
My best man, like me, prefers to base his knowledge on evidence, not speculation. So in the absence of such evidence he does not know.
Tim “My best man, like me, prefers to base his knowledge on evidence, not speculation. So in the absence of such evidence he does not know.”
It is entirely probable that your best man is an officer, a gentleman and a loyal servant of her gracious majesty, in which case he is merely doing his duty and being discrete. It is not speculation. Check it out for yourself.
It is entirely probable that your best man is an officer, a gentleman and a loyal servant of her gracious majesty, in which case he is merely doing his duty and being discrete.
Heh! Yeah, sure he is. He just chooses not to be discrete about every other subject.
Its not speculation. Check it out for yourself.
Well, I’ve asked you whether you had any evidence which would demonstrate the intent of the Israelis, and given that you’ve not replied I am guessing you have none. You have made the claim, it is not for me to trawl the internet looking for the evidence which would support it. In the absence of evidence, it is mere speculation.
Tim “You have made the claim, it is not for me to trawl the internet looking for the evidence which would support it.”
It depends whether you are a seeker after truth or not.
If you want a good laugh have a look at the Daily Show for 12 August on the subject of the war in Georgia.
Do you have a link to the DS, Rob?
C M 12 08 08 deals with Zalmay Khalilzadh’s statement on the Georgia conflict. http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml?episodeId=179206
Stewart’s best quote “War is God’s way of teaching Americans geography”. And not just Americans.
See also this rather startling Pew poll
Pew Survey: Viewers of Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert Score High on News Knowledge
By Greg Mitchell
Published: August 17, 2008 4:00 PM ET
NEW YORK The results of the new Pew Survey on News Consumption (taken every two years and released this afternoon) suggest that viewers of the “fake news” programs “The Daily Show”and “The Colbert Report” are more knowledgeable about current events (as judged by three test questions) than watchers of “real” cable news shows hosted by Lou Dobbs, Bill O’Reilly and Larry King, among others — as well as average consumers of NBC, ABC, Fox News, CNN, C-SPAN and daily newspapers.
The national average for answering the three questions was only 18%. But 34% of The Colbert Report fans got them right, with 30% of The Daily Show viewers doing so – even though the two Comedy Central shows draw younger audiences which generally scored less well on the “test” than older viewers/readers.
The Pew Report observed: “The Colbert Report and The Daily Show are notable for having relatively well-informed audiences that are younger than the national average.”
Topping the knowledge list were The New Yorker and The Atlantic (48%), NPR (44%), MSNBC’s Hardball (43%), and Hannity & Colmes at 42%.
While consumers of most news outlets scored poorly on the test, a separate question revealed that a vast majority believe they follow national news closely.
Respondents were asked to identify which party now controls Congress, who is the current U.S. secretary of state and name the new prime minister of Great Britain.
Coming in behind the two fake news show on the test were consumers of :
News magazines 30%
O’Reilly Factor 28%
Lou Dobbs Tonight 27%
MSNBC 25%
C-SPAN 24%
Daily newspaper 22%
NBC News 21%
Letterman/Leno 20%
Larry King Live 19%
ABC News 19%
CNN 19%
Fox News 19%
CNBC 17%
Personality magazines 13%
Religious radio 12%
CBS News 10%
National Enquirer 9%
*
Greg Mitchell’s new book in Iraq and the media includes chapters on Colbert and Stewart. It is titled “So Wrong for So Long.”
——————————————————————————–
Greg Mitchell (gmitchell@editorandpublisher.com) is editor.
Irishman said..
“I just hear on Irish radio that the Abkhaz have allegedly just taken over some power station there that provides electricity for the whole of Georgia.”
I can well believe you heard this on Irish radio, but only because over the past two weeks, the Irish media has proven itself to have a visceral hatred of Russia, a distinct aversion to balanced presentation and a penchant for highly selective and/or wildly exaggerated reporting.
Do you SERIOUSLY believe that ONE power station would provide electricity for “the whole of Georgia”?
The Western media coverage of the unprovoked Georgian attack on South Ossetia, the murder of Russian soliders stationed there on an OSCE sanctioned peace-keeping mission, the deliberate targeting of fleeing civilians and the subsequent Russian attempts to protect their people have been nothing short of disgracefully jaundiced and peppered with downright lies. The lie you heard on Irish radio (not Newstalk by any chance?) was just one example.
”Do you SERIOUSLY believe that ONE power station would provide electricity for “the whole of Georgia”?”
Dun do bheal, O’Suilleabhan. First of all, I dont know if it does only rely on one power station, but thats what the Sunday Supplement on Today FM were saying. And the PMR only relies on one, thats a certainty, although Georgia is obviously a lot bigger. Only happened to hear the show in the absence of a good tune on John Clarke’s oldies show. Settle, settle. You’re like a Tipperary man after that disaster yesterday in Croke Park -all feckin’ bluster.
”I can well believe you heard this on Irish radio, but only because over the past two weeks, the Irish media has proven itself to have a visceral hatred of Russia, a distinct aversion to balanced presentation and a penchant for highly selective and/or wildly exaggerated reporting.”
Which stations, exactly? I cant account for all of them. But I disagree about RTE – they were blaming Georgia at the start and like me became more and more fed up as the thing went into ‘extra time’, then ‘a replay’ then more extra-time and we’re not even at penalty kicks yet. If you could please point out RTE’s LIES, I’d be glad to listen. You’re coming on here getting all upset – whats the story? Found yourself a dyevushka? Studying Russian at TCD? Cop yourself on. RTE are presenting facts as they get them and putting no spin on it as far as I can see. Maybe the facts are wrong, or not fully accurate, and I have no doubt they are relying on other western stations. Who do you suggest they get info from, feckin’ NTV Russia? ORT maybe?
Further to my post of 17/08@10:46:
Cluster bombs found at Niš airport
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=08&dd=18&nav_id=52800
Cluster bombs, the gift that keeps giving. Touch one, receive permanent disassembly for free! No doubt ‘do not use as suppository’ is stenciled on each unit in minuscule text…
“First of all, I dont know if it does only rely on one power station”
I think it does.
Good for the Abhkaz.
I think it does.
I think Georgia is a bit big to run on only one power station. It would need to have a huge output, unless they import from S. Russia. But if this is the only one, the Georgians must be monumentally daft to be relying on a power station situated in a breakaway republic for the past 15 years.
”I think Georgia is a bit big to run on only one power station. It would need to have a huge output, unless they import from S. Russia. But if this is the only one, the Georgians must be monumentally daft to be relying on a power station situated in a breakaway republic for the past 15 years.
I think it does.
Good for the Abhkaz.”
What I heard on our ‘anti-Russian’ radio was that its a big power station built with EU money a few years back. If the Abkhaz do have it, then the really do have Georgia by the nuts.
“What I heard on our ‘anti-Russian’ radio was that its a big power station built with EU money a few years back. If the Abkhaz do have it, then the really do have Georgia by the nuts.”
Maybe this is out of date, but the last I remember hearing is that Georgia’s energy network was controlled by UES. Some American firm had come in but was unable to make any money, so UES bought them out.
“It would need to have a huge output, unless they import from S. Russia. But if this is the only one, the Georgians must be monumentally daft to be relying on a power station situated in a breakaway republic for the past 15 years.”
Going by memory at least 4 years old, they do import electricity from Russia — and the plant is not in Abkh, but nearby, built in Soviet says.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2008/0819/fifa_georgia.html
Ireland v Georgia match moved. No harm, its hard to get a result in Tbilisi these days – they beat Scotland there last year and effectively ended their hopes of reaching Euro 2008.
The power station is probably on Inguri river, between Abkhzia and Gergia.
“The river plays an important role in the Georgian energy production. In 1988 the Inguri Dam was built at a height of 240 m. At 750 m across and 271.5 m high, it is the largest construction in the Caucasus. It has a capacity of 1.1 million cubic meters of water. The underground water works produces 4.5 million kilowatts of energy yearly, about 40% of the national energy production. The capacity is 1,300 megawatts.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enguri_River