mmmm cider:-) How often did I ‘wake up dead’ when I was a student after a massive feed of Scrumpy or Linden Village. Many times. And, minger beside me in the bed or not (and there often was), it was feckin’ great. Long live cider.

Probably then, as now, food trade went in both directions. We flogged you turnips and cider, you sold us spuds and whisky.

Oh, no, I was hoping you wouldnt mention that!:-( Is there a ‘red face’ emoticon?:-(

There’s still massive shame here over that. I think myself it was possibly the lowest point in Irish history, barring the bombings of pubs in Britain in the 1970s and 80s. It should be borne in mind that the Irish state under De Valera gave nothing to Irish soldiers returning from service, but the Brits did in fairness.

”…it was the Irish government and not the Irish people who were the arsholes.”
Thanks for that. In fairness a lot of the Irish did fight in WWII, and a lot died, and we like to think here that it made up for a lot of what happened with De Valera (who was actually bloody American anyway!)He just couldnt bear the Brits, in a way that shocked even die-hard rebels like Michael Collins and Arthur Griffiths. He was also the main instigator of the Irish Civil War and many (myself included) believe he was responsible for Michael Collins assasination. Collins’ funeral was attended by no less than David Lloyd George – less than a year after they had basically been at war. De Valera had no such vaunted mourners.

”Britain was providing Ireland with food from the mainland”

we were always told that we fed Britain during WWII, but that could have been propoganda – the history books in schools were hopelessy anti-Brit until very recently when the state hauled them all out of use and distributed less biased versions of what happened. We definitely did feed Britain in WWI, when Ireland was making tons of money from exports and enjoyed a huge boom in agriculture here.

That was a shameful episode in Irish history. de Valera was the only head of state to offer his commiserations to Germany on the death of Adolf Hitler, something he later tried to justify on the grounds that as head of state he was obliged to do to all other heads of state on their deaths. Fortunately, somebody was smart enough to point out that de Valera had not sent commiserations to the US on the death of Roosevelt some months before.

That this position was probably not popular amongst the Irish population, coupled with the fact that thousands of Irish fought with the British having realised what was at stake, is the redeeming feature of the whole sorry episode, which shows it was the Irish government and not the Irish people who were the arsholes.

The Irish would not even allow the allies to place a navigation beacon on its western coast to aid the downed airmen who were patrolling the Atlantic looking for the German submarines imposing the blockade on the whole British Isles, which included Ireland. Britain was fighting the Germans who were preventing Ireland from getting food imports, Britain was providing Ireland with food from the mainland, yet a beacon was too much to ask for given Ireland’s “strict neutrality”. What would have happened to Ireland had Operation Sealion been successful, I wonder?

As I said, shameful behaviour of the Irish government, redeemed by the Irish people.

That is true, but, give us some credit, from the mid 1980s onwards Ireland did begin to clamp down on this and started seriously locking up IRA members. And these days if you’re caught with so much as republican pamphlets in the house you’ll get banged up for five years, minimum.

”Yes it was not too long after Southern Ireland separated from the “British Empire” and the idiot Chamberlain gave back the treaty ports the British navy kept on the west coast just in case there was another war. Actually it may have been his predecessor the idiot Baldwin.”

It was Baldwin. I remember that from school.

”Chruchill was very tempted to grab them back as their loss was restricting the range of anti U boat patrols and costing British and indeed US lives. At the time lots of people who had suddenly found themselves Irish citizens volunteered to fight Hitler.”

Churchill might have been tempted, but that isnt to say he’d have succeeded, and at the very least would have got a lot grief from the Irish, who were well clued in to Brit harrasment at that stage(the same tactics which seemingly amazed Mao, Che and Ho Chi Minh, the latter having at utter fascination with the Irish War of Independence). As for citizenship, Ireland was independent since 1921, so it wasnt really that sudden. But you are right about soldiering – both my grandfathers fought for the Brits. My father’s father was at Belsen – and hardly spoke a word for 50 years after he came back from the war. And my mother’s grandfather was killed in Gallipoli. My folks still hate the Turks!

”Even longer ago Britain was several times on the verge of invading Southern Ireland because of the difficulties they were causing in the war against Hitleer particularly in the Atlantic.”
A lot of Irish people, myself included, are greatly ashamed of this. We had a nutty PM at the time, Eamon De Valera, who would do anything to irritate Britain, irrespective of the consequences (including hardship for us during the economic war of the 1930s with Britain)

Really?

The basis for my unsubstantiated speculation is my belief that British people are not morons, but rather intelligent agents who react to situations intelligently.

I am not talking about an enemy located in a territory who runs out of the territory, shoots at you, and then runs back into the territory, no longer shooting at you.

I am talking about an enemy who sits in that territory, sets up big fucking guns, and starts shooting you, without ever leaving. In such a situation, to avoid being killed, you have to remove the guns.

I cannot believe we are arguing about something so obvious.