Regime Change Russian Style?
By Sean at 11 August, 2008, 10:28 pm
“Regime change” may be an American term, as Russian UN Ambassador Vitaly Churkin explained to reporters, but it sounds like Russia is going to force their own version. “Sometimes there are cases,” Churkin explained, “when leaders become obstacles to a people’s way out of a situation. In those situations, some leaders make the brave decision in regards to their political future.” Cynical? Maybe. Opportunistic? Certainly. Don’t count on the Russians to pass up a good opportunity to get rid of their Georgian irritant. As Kommersant notes, “Moscow considers the removal of Saakashvili a matter of principle.”
The Russians are claiming that they want a cease fire with Georgia but there just isn’t anyone to talk to. After all, as Chunkin stressed, “What decent person will talk to him now?” Clearly not the decent Russians, who have essentially cut Georgia into two. Russian forces have taken Gori and other strategic towns and are said to be converging on Tbilisi, which Saakashvilli vows his troops will defend to the death. The real question is whether Saak will go down with his ship.
How quickly the South Ossetian War has become more about Russia and the United States, East and West, George Bush and Vladimir Putin, than about the poor South Ossetians caught in the middle. Today was just another example of the sheer cynical chest beating of it all. You had the American dyarchy standing up condemning Russia’s war machine. “Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century,” Bush said. Cheney declared that Russia’s actions “must not go unanswered.” Presidential Candidates McCain and Obama, always ready to look Presidential, also weighed in. McCain called for NATO intervention and reminded Russia that to be part of the civilized world means to respect its values. Obama condemned Russia’s military push saying that “There is no possible justification for these attacks.” I don’t know. When you think of it, Russia is kind of showing a bit of restraint, as horrific as that might sound. They could have easily turned Georgia into a parking lot.
The dyarchy in Russia was of course not without rebuttal. Putin lashed out at the US for its backing of Georgia and especially for airlifting some 2000 Georgian troops out of Iraq. “The very scale of this cynicism is astonishing,” he said, “the attempt to turn white into black, black into white and to adeptly portray victims of aggression as aggressors and place the responsibility for the consequences of the aggression on the victims.” Dmitri Medvedev even has his own Hitler moment by comparing Western support of Georgia with appeasing Hitler in 1938. He then went on to accuse Georgia of trying to commit genocide in South Ossetia. “The form this aggression took is nothing less than genocide because Georgia committed heaviest crimes — civilians were torched, sawed to pieces and rolled over by tanks,” he said. You see, fascism really is the gift that keeps on giving.
And what about the people caught in the middle? South Ossetians are finally beginning to bury their dead. Hundreds of volunteers are flooding into the war zone from neighboring Chechnya, Dagestan, North Ossetia, and Kabardino-Balkaria. Murat Dryaev was one such volunteer. He met his demise before he was able to put his hand on a rifle. As Tom Parfitt writes in the Guardian:
Murat Dryaev, 29, a construction worker, left for the war on Thursday and was brought home in a coffin two days later. He lived with his parents at the end of a stony track in Novy Batakayur, a village 10 miles from the North Ossetian capital, Vladikavkaz. Yesterday his relatives sat in vigil around his open coffin, adorned with roses and his photograph.
“He went to defend his sister and her children who live in South Ossetia,” said his wife, Ira, weeping over her husband’s pallid face. “But he never reached the place where they hand out weapons.”
Dryaev and his group of volunteers were hit by Georgian artillery fire. It is not known how many others died.
“His three-year-old daughter still thinks he’s coming home,” said his sister, Larisa. The dead man’s mother, Teresa, sat at the head of the coffin. “She’s been speechless, like a living corpse,” said Larisa. “She begged him not to go but she couldn’t stop him.”
The volunteer factor, though currently small, will certainly be a nagging problem once the smoke clears.
I think its about time for Georgia and the world to face it. South Ossetia is now Russia’s and it was Saakashvilli that gave it to them.
Estimates of refuges from South Ossetia are about 30,000 many of which were taken into North Ossetia by Russian buses. Other Russian supplied aid–food, medicine, mobile hospitals, search teams, and water–is said to be pouring into South Ossetia.
As for the Georgians, the number of civilian casualties as a result of Russia’s armor assault and aerial bombing is unknown. Two days ago Georgia reported about 130 dead, 37 of which were civilians. Suffice to say that they most certainly are mounting. The UNHCR is beginning to send humanitarian relief to Georgia where an estimated 100,000 people have been displaced. About 56,000 people are said to have fled Gori alone.
Let’s all hope that the dick swinging will end tomorrow and some kind of cease fire will be brokered.
Popularity: 5% [?]
Comments
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
“Russian forces have taken Gori and other strategic towns”
Wait a second — something certainly may have changed in the past few hours, but last I heard the only sources that Gori had actually been “taken” were Georgian officials.
“The dyarchy in Russia was of course not without rebuttal. Putin lashed out at the US for its backing of Georgia and especially for airlifting some 2000 Georgian troops out of Iraq.”
IMO, this is just empty rhetoric. There is no fucking way the US would have done this without clearing it with the Russians first.
FWIW, in going through AP, I can’t find a single story that states the Russians have occupied Gori. Bombing Gori, yes; approaching Gori, yes; absolutely nothing about taking it.
I may have missed something of course.
Whoops, I guess not. The very latest from AFP says:
Georgia initially claimed Russian soldiers had occupied Gori, a key city linking the western and eastern parts of the country, but officials later said Russian troops were stationed nearby.
http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/newsmlmmd.16bb1d656c44854673217c3963acccc2.c1.html
There is no fucking way the US would have done this without clearing it with the Russians first.
No way? No way at all, as in not possible?
Do you have any evidence of this, or can we write this off as the same unsubstantiated garbage people were saying last time Israel bombed Lebanon?
Tim, I think you misunderstood me. Maybe not. What I meant to say was that I find it unlikely that the US would send planes into a war zone of a foreign power, and thus risk having them be shot down, without notifing the foreign power. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with Israel and Lebanon.
The blame game is a waste of time and pretty irrelevant although in the very short term it is now clear that Georgia gambled on a quick takeover combined with some ethnic cleansing. It is alleged that this was the reason they failed to close the Rodi tunnel as that would have left the refugees on the wrong side of the Russian border. Their second problem was that they had to kill Russian peacekeepers, who were probably all hand picked die-hard special forces, to achieve their aim. There were only 500 of them but if they were the hand picked élite of the Russian army it would explain why the Georgian timetable slipped.
One of the interesting things about all this is that the much mocked Russian armed forces have shown themselves capable of conducting complicated operations efficiently across a 5000 metre mountain range quickly on a large scale without an air field. As the very serious Stratfor has pointed out, Saakashvili and the US seem to have underestimated them. This should be seen in the context of the problem Western nations have in scrapping together a few hundred troops for their various foreign interventions and the US’s dependance on a considerable number of mercenaries in Iraq. True as the crow flies not a great distance from their home bases but impressive so far.
As to US involvement, it is worth noting that on August 8th “everybody” was at the Olympics except, surprise, surprise, Vice-President Cheney, who was minding the shop in Washington. Funny how when the US intelligence community finally had the courage to say that Iran was not building nuclear weapons he was away. Then of course he was minding the shop when 9/11 occurred. Another coincidence, 9/11 took place at a time of military excercises and so did the attack on South Ossetia. The Russians are saying that there were 2 to 3,000 mercenaries in the Georgian force that attacked South Ossetia. If any are taken alive it should be interesting to see where they are from and what a little gentle waterboarding and sexual humiliation encourages them to say or am I getting my military interventions mixed up?
Here’s my plane theory.
We know that at first the US denied it had any plans to send Georgian troops back to Georgia. Then, a few days later, they change their mind — and military hostilities end the very next day. Coincidence? You decide.
Tim, I think you misunderstood me.
Sorry, I did: I thought you said that Georgia attacked only after clearing it with the US first. Apologies. These 10-hour days are frying my brain.
My nephew is currently on sick leave from an elite Russian unit – his friends are “unobtainable” at the moment, and suddenly became so on Friday evening, so I think we can assume that Russia has learned from sending conscripts to Grozny first time round!
My impression is that the US/NATO was not overly shy at using this as a testing ground to find a little bit more about Russian resolve, and possibly even to test the strength of Russian forces. The press has commented frequently in the past on the lack of morale and discipline of the Russian army, and we have just had a demo that while this may be true, some units at least are still very much at full strength.
” “Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century,” Bush said.”
I guess Putin/Medvedev are fully entitled to say “told you so” and wave a big map of Kosovo!
“Sorry, I did: I thought you said that Georgia attacked only after clearing it with the US first. Apologies. These 10-hour days are frying my brain.”
It’s conceivable, but doubtful. It’s my understanding that the US was very concerned by Saakashvilli’s behavior and had talked him down a few times already.
Irishman – “Tim correctly pointed out, using NI as an example, that the Brits have respect for foreign borders that the Russians simply dont.”
Come off it. When, not so longa ago, a great portion of the globe was coloured pink, as a historically minded schoolboy I used to amuse myself by counting the number of capitals of the world that had not been occupied by His or Her majesties forces and I was very pleased to note that there were not very many. Moscow is one but not for lack of trying after WWI.
Matt MacLachlan – As the father of a British regular officer I wish I believed this cool calculation really existed. I am increasingly getting the impression that the Western powers are in a state of considerable mental confusion. The dramatic recovery of the former Communist and other economically backward states seems to have left them slightly stunned and still victims of their own propaganda. They and their foreign policy groupies claim to believe that Kosovo is sui generis and no precedent; the Russians are fundamentally still an economic basket case totally dependant on the good luck of an energy price boom; the Chinese are totally at the mercy of the US because they hold too many dollars; the occupation of Iraq has nothing to do with oil; we are in Afghanistan to help the people; we know best and are deeply committed to democracy and human rights etc etc.
A particularly interesting example in the light of events, is the European Union which says that the guiding principle in the resolution of the frozen conflicts in Georgia should be territorial integrity but at the same time they say that practically next door in Nagorno-Karabakh the problem should be resolved by a referendum. The US at the last NATO summit lobbied frantically for Georgian membership in the teeth of angry Russian opposition and at the same time negotiated with the Russians for overland transport facilities for NATO supplies to Afghanistan. No wonder Putin treats Western leaders with contempt.
The Russians do have a point. Saakashvili talks of peace and offers autonomy, but arms for war, and more specifically, the indiscriminate shelling (using the notoriously inaccurate GRADs)of a civilian town or city can constitute a war crime.
Milan Martic, former head of Republika Srpska Krajina (RSK) was indicted by the war crimes tribunal in the Hague for ordering the firing of rockets at Zagreb in 1995 in ‘response’ to the massive Croatian attack on the Krajina.
One of the rumors was that it was georgian special forces that had specifically targeted the russian peace-keepers, which if true, shows that provocation of Russia to get NATO involved was Saakasvili’s prime goal.
From the Ames article:
Georgia Gets Its War On…McCain Gets His Brain Plaque…
http://exiledonline.com/georgia-gets-its-war-onmccain-gets-his-brain-plaque/#more-269
“The invasion was backed up by a PR offensive so layered and sophisticated that I even got an hysterical call today from a hedge fund manager in New York, screaming about an “investor call” that Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze made this morning with some fifty leading Western investment bank managers and analysts. I’ve since seen a J.P. Morgan summary of the conference call, which pretty much reflects the talking points later picked up by the US media.
These kinds of conference calls are generally conducted by the heads of companies in order to give banking analysts guidance. But as the hedge fund manager told me today, “The reason Lado did this is because he knew the enormous PR value that Georgia would gain by going to the money people and analysts, particularly since Georgia is clearly the aggressor this time.” As a former investment banker who worked in London and who used to head the Bank of Georgia, Gurgenidze knew what he was doing. “Lado is a former banker himself, so he knew that by framing the conflict for the most influential bankers and analysts in New York, that these power bankers would then write up reports and go on CNBC and argue Lado Gurgenidze’s talking points. It was brilliant, and now you’re starting to see the American media shift its coverage from calling it Georgia invading Ossetian territory, to the new spin, that it’s Russian imperial aggression against tiny little Georgia.”
The really scary thing about this investor conference call is that it suggests real planning. As the hedge fund manager told me, “These things aren’t set up on an hour’s notice.” “
”Irishman – “Tim correctly pointed out, using NI as an example, that the Brits have respect for foreign borders that the Russians simply dont.”
Come off it. When, not so longa ago, a great portion of the globe was coloured pink, as a historically minded schoolboy I used to amuse myself by counting the number of capitals of the world that had not been occupied by His or Her majesties forces and I was very pleased to note that there were not very many. Moscow is one but not for lack of trying after WWI.”
Ahem. That ship sailed quite a while back Robert. You wont find Her Majesty’s army invading too many places these days. I’m not singing the praises of the Brits – God Knows we’ve had our issues – but there is simply no way they’d have entered Ireland to follow the IRA. The Brits have that thing most alien to Russians -restraint. The Brits, irrespective of what the IRA threw at them, would not cross the border to follow them in the Republic. What has happened in Ossetia is Russia has chased an army out of the province of another country. I dont believe for one second the Brits would have done that. And the Russians were only able to do it cos it was weakling Georgia. I cant imagine the same hurry to foray into North Korea or China (who by all accounts have ‘occupied’ little bits of Taiga forest, ‘bez vizi’). No the Russians pissed off the Georgians, the Georgians through a punch so the Russians responded with a crowbar. Bravo. Georgia entered its own territory to quell a likely Russian-engineered disturbance and the Russians took their chance to beat the shit out of them, entering Georgia ‘proper’. I’m not saying the Georgians are right either. But the Russians have acted like brutes. It looks like the whole thing may have been a Russian trap.
Once again, the IRA is not an army and is not fought like an army. I recommend listening to the only one of us here who actually, as far as I know, has military experience, Kolya.
Wait — I have a theory. You think that “2000 dead” figure the BBC was broadcasting everywhere was a Georgian estimate, don’t you?
”Once again, the IRA is not an army and is not fought like an army. I recommend listening to the only one of us here who actually, as far as I know, has military experience, Kolya.”
And once again Ossetiya is part of Georgia, not Russia, something you’d be aware of if you looked at a map.
OK – Kolya -were the Russians right to take the fight past Ossetiya and into the rest of Georgia? Is there a decent reason for this or were the Russians just piling misery on misery?
”Wait — I have a theory. You think that “2000 dead” figure the BBC was broadcasting everywhere was a Georgian estimate, don’t you?”
If you mean dead in Tskinavali, I thought that was Russian figure – of dead Ossetiyans killed by Georgian salvos of GRADI on friday morning.
I’m not for a second by BTW trying to absolve the Georgians. But I sure as shit prefer having Britain as a neighbour than Russia.
And thats after 800 years of occupation! They have to their credit tended not to level villages, either ours or indeed theirs (something the Russians have)
Ger, you still don’t seem to realize, I think on purpose, that you can fire at South Ossetia from a long way away.
“They have to their credit tended not to level villages, either ours or indeed theirs (something the Russians have)”
When has Ireland attack Britain with heavy artillery? Snipers and mortars do not count.
“OK – Kolya -were the Russians right to take the fight past Ossetiya and into the rest of Georgia?”
He said so in the other thread.
”When has Ireland attack Britain with heavy artillery? Snipers and mortars do not count.”
Snipers and ambushes with rifles are the actually the reason the Republic of Ireland is independent, Chris! Dont knock ‘em till you’ve tried ‘em!
”Ger, you still don’t seem to realize, I think on purpose, that you can fire at South Ossetia from a long way away.”
Chris, I do, though grudgingly. But I think that the Russians just over did it, thats all. Maybe I’m wrong.
“But I think that the Russians just over did it, thats all.”
See, that is a rational position to take, not comparing a bunch of guys armed with small arms to a bunch of guys armed with howitzers.
What happened to the good old days when you could massacre over 1,000 of your own citizens and no one would bat an eyelid? Happy days indeed!
As for NATO, they know all about disproportionate force, a two day bombing campaign in 1999 turning into a 78 day bombing campaign to ’stop genocide’. Curious that for such a serious threat NATO couldn’t get any agreement to deal with such a risk in the only way that was effective, send in the ground troops. It rather depends on whose lies people believe…
”See, that is a rational position to take, not comparing a bunch of guys armed with small arms to a bunch of guys armed with howitzers.”
I didnt bring it up in the first place!
”What happened to the good old days when you could massacre over 1,000 of your own citizens and no one would bat an eyelid? Happy days indeed!”
Yeah Aleks, its just too pc now really, isnt it?:-)
“I didnt bring it up in the first place!”
Yes you did. You said the Russians could have just thrown the Georgians out of South Ossetia without pursuing them further, like the Brits did to the IRA, and I pointed out that modern armies have these nifty things called “missile launchers” and “tank guns” and “howitzers” that can fire at targets in South Ossetia while not actually being inside it.
I kind of miss the cravats, top hats and dueling pistols. More romantic.
These days they say football is a replacement for war.
Does anyone honestly think that Saakashvili would agree to a winner takes it all football match with Russia?
It would have saved a lot more lives.
Instead we have the human condition. What a bummer.
Snipers and ambushes with rifles are the actually the reason the Republic of Ireland is independent, Chris! Dont knock ‘em till you’ve tried ‘em!
The snipers, ambushes, and bombing raids which were launched from inside Eire, especially those which took place in Co. Armargh, were hugely damaging to the British Army, and could have been eradicated had the British Army ventured southwards for a couple of weeks. That they didn’t is a reflection of the UK’s understanding of the international border between N.I. and Eire and the consequences of crossing it, as opposed to the fact that th IRA were not using artillery.
You said the Russians could have just thrown the Georgians out of South Ossetia without pursuing them further, like the Brits did to the IRA…
The Brits did no such thing to the IRA, precisely because they could escape into Eire without fear of being pursued.
OK. This is getting silly. I assume, then, that if there were a number of large rapid-fire missile launchers sitting inside Ireland firing upon the civilian population of Belfast, Britain would have done nothing to them.
I assume, then, that if there were a number of large rapid-fire missile launchers sitting inside Ireland firing upon the civilian population of Belfast, Britain would have done nothing to them.
The British Army was attacked from within Eire, but they did not cross the border. You are assuming that this was because the IRA was not using artillery and tank fire. I am pretty certain that this was because the British understood the importance of international borders, and knew the consequences of crossing an international border, especially a UK-Eire border, with an army.
I’m basing my certainty on my having studied the troubles in Northern Ireland, the political consequences of the options considered by Thatcher at the time (one of which was crossing the border), and knowing several people who were officers in the British Army at the time and who wore purple and green ribbons on their chests.
The question is, what is your assumption based on?
“The British Army was attacked from within Eire,”
Did I say the British Army? I said “a number of large rapid-fire missile launchers sitting inside Ireland firing upon the civilian population of Belfast” to which I should have added “these missile launchers being owned, operated and fired by the Irish government in an attempt to seize control of Belfast.”
Give up on the Ireland analogies. They do not work.
Let us continue the example. Sixteen years ago the government of Ireland engaged in a civil war with Northern Ireland, in which massive ethnic cleansing occured, villages were razed, and Northern Irish people were murdered in large numbers. An agreement was brokered and a document signed by the Irish to allow a force of British, North Irish, and Irish peacekeepers there, but there have been sporadic armed clashes between Irish and North Irish since then.
Now, the Irish nationalist leader Patrick Shamrockvilli has declared a unilateral ceasefire. During the “ceasefire,” he begins bombarding Belfast with heavy artillery.
What do you do?
Give up on the Ireland analogies. They do not work.
Well, you are the one trying to prove that the British Army would invade Eire if attacked in a certain manner by the IRA from within Eire. All I have done is point out that the British Army – and civilians, for that matter, lots of them – were attacked from within Eire, but the British Army did not invade.
There is no Ireland analogy, there is the hard fact that Britain, despite being attacked from within Eire, never invaded. A fact. All you have is unsubstantiated speculation that Britain would have invaded had the attacks been different.
“All you have is unsubstantiated speculation that Britain would have invaded had the attacks been different.”
The basis for my unsubstantiated speculation is my belief that British people are not morons, but rather intelligent agents who react to situations intelligently.
I am not talking about an enemy located in a territory who runs out of the territory, shoots at you, and then runs back into the territory, no longer shooting at you.
I am talking about an enemy who sits in that territory, sets up big fucking guns, and starts shooting you, without ever leaving. In such a situation, to avoid being killed, you have to remove the guns.
I cannot believe we are arguing about something so obvious.
Even longer ago Britain was several times on the verge of invading Southern Ireland because of the difficulties they were causing in the war against Hitleer particularly in the Atlantic. They did not only because Churchill was worried about US opinion and above all the fact that (from memory) 600,000 Eire citizens were serving in the British forces.
“They did not only because Churchill was worried about US opinion and above all the fact that (from memory) 600,000 Eire citizens were serving in the British forces.”
Really?
Yes it was not too long after Southern Ireland separated from the “British Empire” and the idiot Chamberlain gave back the treaty ports the British navy kept on the west coast just in case there was another war. Actually it may have been his predecessor the idiot Baldwin. Chruchill was very tempted to grab them back as their loss was restricting the range of anti U boat patrols and costing British and indeed US lives. At the time lots of people who had suddenly found themselves Irish citizens volunteered to fight Hitler.
A quick check on Wiki indicates that my memory was wildly out and that the figure was under 30,000 for Southern Ireland and about the same for the North wher there was no conscription. However I seem to remember seeing a much higher figure that may have been the total of those working industry in Britain as well.
”The Brits did no such thing to the IRA, precisely because they could escape into Eire without fear of being pursued.”
That is true, but, give us some credit, from the mid 1980s onwards Ireland did begin to clamp down on this and started seriously locking up IRA members. And these days if you’re caught with so much as republican pamphlets in the house you’ll get banged up for five years, minimum.
”Yes it was not too long after Southern Ireland separated from the “British Empire” and the idiot Chamberlain gave back the treaty ports the British navy kept on the west coast just in case there was another war. Actually it may have been his predecessor the idiot Baldwin.”
It was Baldwin. I remember that from school.
”Chruchill was very tempted to grab them back as their loss was restricting the range of anti U boat patrols and costing British and indeed US lives. At the time lots of people who had suddenly found themselves Irish citizens volunteered to fight Hitler.”
Churchill might have been tempted, but that isnt to say he’d have succeeded, and at the very least would have got a lot grief from the Irish, who were well clued in to Brit harrasment at that stage(the same tactics which seemingly amazed Mao, Che and Ho Chi Minh, the latter having at utter fascination with the Irish War of Independence). As for citizenship, Ireland was independent since 1921, so it wasnt really that sudden. But you are right about soldiering – both my grandfathers fought for the Brits. My father’s father was at Belsen – and hardly spoke a word for 50 years after he came back from the war. And my mother’s grandfather was killed in Gallipoli. My folks still hate the Turks!
”Even longer ago Britain was several times on the verge of invading Southern Ireland because of the difficulties they were causing in the war against Hitleer particularly in the Atlantic.”
A lot of Irish people, myself included, are greatly ashamed of this. We had a nutty PM at the time, Eamon De Valera, who would do anything to irritate Britain, irrespective of the consequences (including hardship for us during the economic war of the 1930s with Britain)
We had a nutty PM at the time, Eamon De Valera, who would do anything to irritate Britain, irrespective of the consequences (including hardship for us during the economic war of the 1930s with Britain)
That was a shameful episode in Irish history. de Valera was the only head of state to offer his commiserations to Germany on the death of Adolf Hitler, something he later tried to justify on the grounds that as head of state he was obliged to do to all other heads of state on their deaths. Fortunately, somebody was smart enough to point out that de Valera had not sent commiserations to the US on the death of Roosevelt some months before.
That this position was probably not popular amongst the Irish population, coupled with the fact that thousands of Irish fought with the British having realised what was at stake, is the redeeming feature of the whole sorry episode, which shows it was the Irish government and not the Irish people who were the arsholes.
The Irish would not even allow the allies to place a navigation beacon on its western coast to aid the downed airmen who were patrolling the Atlantic looking for the German submarines imposing the blockade on the whole British Isles, which included Ireland. Britain was fighting the Germans who were preventing Ireland from getting food imports, Britain was providing Ireland with food from the mainland, yet a beacon was too much to ask for given Ireland’s “strict neutrality”. What would have happened to Ireland had Operation Sealion been successful, I wonder?
As I said, shameful behaviour of the Irish government, redeemed by the Irish people.
”That was a shameful episode in Irish history. de Valera was the only head of state to offer his commiserations to Germany on the death of Adolf Hitler, something he later tried to justify on the grounds that as head of state he was obliged to do to all other heads of state on their deaths. Fortunately, somebody was smart enough to point out that de Valera had not sent commiserations to the US on the death of Roosevelt some months before.”
Oh, no, I was hoping you wouldnt mention that!:-( Is there a ‘red face’ emoticon?:-(
There’s still massive shame here over that. I think myself it was possibly the lowest point in Irish history, barring the bombings of pubs in Britain in the 1970s and 80s. It should be borne in mind that the Irish state under De Valera gave nothing to Irish soldiers returning from service, but the Brits did in fairness.
”…it was the Irish government and not the Irish people who were the arsholes.”
Thanks for that. In fairness a lot of the Irish did fight in WWII, and a lot died, and we like to think here that it made up for a lot of what happened with De Valera (who was actually bloody American anyway!)He just couldnt bear the Brits, in a way that shocked even die-hard rebels like Michael Collins and Arthur Griffiths. He was also the main instigator of the Irish Civil War and many (myself included) believe he was responsible for Michael Collins assasination. Collins’ funeral was attended by no less than David Lloyd George – less than a year after they had basically been at war. De Valera had no such vaunted mourners.
”Britain was providing Ireland with food from the mainland”
we were always told that we fed Britain during WWII, but that could have been propoganda – the history books in schools were hopelessy anti-Brit until very recently when the state hauled them all out of use and distributed less biased versions of what happened. We definitely did feed Britain in WWI, when Ireland was making tons of money from exports and enjoyed a huge boom in agriculture here.
we were always told that we fed Britain during WWII
Probably then, as now, food trade went in both directions. We flogged you turnips and cider, you sold us spuds and whisky.
”Probably then, as now, food trade went in both directions. We flogged you turnips and cider, you sold us spuds and whisky.”
mmmm cider:-) How often did I ‘wake up dead’ when I was a student after a massive feed of Scrumpy or Linden Village. Many times. And, minger beside me in the bed or not (and there often was), it was feckin’ great. Long live cider.