The Russians are evil and pose a clear and present danger to Britain. That’s at least what being spewed in the British press. Recent days have been a reminder of the frozen relations between Britain and Russia.
First there was the short but tense meeting between British PM Gordon Brown and Russian President Medvedev at the G8. The latter gave the former “short shrift” reports the Financial Times,
Mr Medvedev was in no mood to give ground in the hour-long talks, believing that Mr Brown had deliberately soured the atmosphere by raising the issues, instead of looking exclusively to the future. Russian diplomats were also furious at reports in the British press last week which suggested London was awash with Russian spies. Moscow believes the leak came from MI5, the British security service.
Then there is the belief among the British security service that Russia presents the third greatest threat to British security. The Slavic nation follows Al-Qaeda and Iran. Always a bridesmaid and never a bride. Oh, how we wish for the days of the Cold War. Or are the British suggesting an new Axis of Evil?
Well, one could ignore the British report and the Medvedev-Brown tiff as business as usual. That is if it wasn’t followed by some outlandish assertions regarding the Litvinenko Affair and the FSB’s apparent love for poison.
The BBC’s Mark Urban is claiming that a senior British security official believes that “the Litvinenko case to have had some state involvement; there are very strong indications that it was a state action.” Also thanks to MI5′s deftness, an assassination attempt against Boris Berezovsky was thwarted last June. The supposed assassin, a certain “Mr. A,” was arrested and deported on 21 June 2007. Berezovsky told Newsnight that Mr. A wasn’t put on trial because “British intelligence did not want to reveal the source who had warned them that Mr A was traveling to London.” Ian Flemming couldn’t have plotted it better.
True, the Litvinenko story went beyond sense months ago. So much so, I wouldn’t be surprised if Berezovsky digs up Litvinenko’s radioactive corpse and starts wheeling it around a la Weekend at Bernie’s just to squeeze more press out of it.
*****
Litvinenko is back in the funny papers just in time to draw interest in Andrei Nekrasov’s anti-Putin diatribe, Poisoned by Polonium. I saw the film a few weeks ago and I have to say that it was two of the most excruciating hours I’ve spent in a long time.
The plot is simple. Here we have good matured Sasha Litvinenko, who after becoming disillusioned by the FSB’s brutality in Chechnya and corruption among his colleagues, dedicates his life exposing its corruption and criminality. Conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory follows. The FSB blew up those Moscow apartments in 1999. The FSB conspired to take over the Russian state. The FSB engaged in all sorts of smuggling, extortion and mafiaesque acts. The film clearly uses Litvinenko’s book Blowing Up Russia: The Secret Plot to Bring Back KGB Terror as its Bible and like any biblical tale is full of folklore and prophecy.
The problem with Nekrasov’s portrayal of power, corruption, and brutality in Russia’s secret police is that he lumps the real with the fiction. Real conspiracy with its theoretical musing. There is no doubt in my mind that FSB agents, especially in the 1990s had links to organized crime. Just like I believe that there are elements in the FSB who continue to do so. But to equate the completely outlandish with the probable and then have no evidence to actually prove either makes the viewer walk away thinking that the only nuts in the celluloid jar are Nekrasov and Litvinenko.
Moreover, the film isn’t really about Litvinenko’s poisoning at all. It is merely the cherry on top of a decade long plot by Putin and his gang. Images of a bald, feeble Sasha doesn’t appear until the last 15 minutes or so. Most of the time we see a fit Sasha incessantly rattling away at his ideas. So the viewer learns little about Litvinenko’s actual poisoning. The perpetrator, Putin through his FSB proxy, is merely a logical conclusion of a long string of nefarious deeds. Chief suspect Andrei Lugovoi does makes a short appearance where he speaks nonsense. His presence, however, allows for the film’s only intentional comedic moment. At one point he offers Nekrasov a cup of tea. The filmmaker politely declines.
There are some notable people missing. Sure Berezovsky is there and he always good for a few laughs. Surprisingly, BAB’s chief propagandist, Alexander Goldfarb, is absent. As is a single interview with a British or Russian investigator to corroborate any of Nekrasov’s or Litvinenko’s allegations. Nor is it ever explained how Litvinenko, who was never that high in the FSB hierarchy, was able to know so much. Perhaps what is most disturbing is that Anna Politkovskaya also comes off as a total nut. Not so much from what she says but the fact that she’s looks and moves like a crazy person.
If pressed to say one positive thing about Poisoned by Polonium, it would be that Nekrasov is a master visual propagandist. His film eye is excellent. He has a knack for angled shots that add drama and suspense. His editing of stock footage, news clips, and interviews makes for a visually interesting film even if the content is complete crap.
*****
Even if Litvinenko has slid to the back pages, it seems that there might be another toxic corpse on the horizon to pin on the Russians. About a week ago, British super spook Alex Allan, who chairs Britain’s Government’s Joint Intelligence Committee, was found unconscious in his home covered in blood. He now lies in the hospital in a coma. Given Allan’s position, British investigators haven’t totally ruled out foul play. Such beliefs, whether they are true or not makes from some good kompromat. And if you’re looking for kompromat, look no forward than the Sun, Britain’s newspaper of nonsense.
“Top security expert” Chris Dobson told the Sun for sordid “Did Russians or al-Qaeda poison Britain’s top spy?” that Allen is a prime target simply by virtue of his job to oversee and coordinate “every aspect of [the British” intelligence community.” Dobson continued,
“The nature of his sudden illness, if it is an assassination attempt, points towards the FSB, successors of Russia’s KGB. They are the masters of assassination by poison.
“They were blamed by Britain for the death of Alexander Litvinenko by radioactive polonium poisoning in London in 2006. And anti-Russian Vicktor Yashenko was horribly disfigured by poison which almost killed him during the election which made him President of the Ukraine.
“So Mr Putin, the former KGB colonel who runs Russia, ‘has form’. And he has become increasingly aggressive towards Britain, accusing us of espionage plots against Russia. Al-Qaeda is another suspect.
They would see his death as a great victory, fulfilling Osama Bin Laden’s threat to strike at the heart of the ‘infidel enemy’. What better target than the man whose job is dedicated to wiping them out?”
“He is therefore a prime target. The nature of his sudden illness, if it is an assassination attempt, points towards the FSB, successors of Russia’s KGB. They are the masters of assassination by poison.”
So I guess it’s just a matter of picking your poison. Al-Qaeda or the FSB. Or maybe they are just working together! Now there’s a plot for Poisoned by Polonium II.
{ 40 comments }
”Then there is the belief among the British security service that Russia presents the third greatest threat to British security.”
The Brits are still smarting I think from that ultra-embarrassing rock incident in Moscow – a total shambles, one of the biggest MI6 disasters in Russia since Kim Philby. There’s no doubt several people in MI6 have a major axe to grind with Russia that has nothing to do with Litvinenko’s death. As well as that the MI6 workload must have dropped considerably since the IRA stopped their foul campaigns and like any security agency MI6 has got to have enemies to justify its existence (mind you I would have thought they had enough work with Islamic terrorism in Britain). Whilst I have no doubt that London is teaming with Russian spies, that kind of stuff is par for the course usually, and I’m sure Britain has plenty in Moscow too.
Aleks alluded over at SL that Brown may have brought this up with Medvedev to appear tough and forthright as he’s totally on the ropes politically at home (shame, I like him a lot, he’s cool).
”Perhaps what is most disturbing is that Anna Politkovskaya also comes off as a total nut”
I’m sorry to speak ill of the dead, but her writing is like that a little too, at least what I have read. I’d say she was a bit scattery and totally in her own world. Still the woman had a lot of courage, Rest Her Soul.
I still think BAB is behind the whole thing. Its hard to imagine a professional outfit deliberately killing someone with something that once detected was bound to cause a massive international scandal.
“They are the masters of assassination by poison.”
How many people have actually been killed by poisoning by these alleged masters?
“I’m sorry to speak ill of the dead, but her writing is like that a little too, at least what I have read. I’d say she was a bit scattery and totally in her own world.”
Well, she was. If she wasn’t saying the kind of things that appeal to the Guardian’s readership, she would have had no audience.
I have started to call this kind of thing Gus Hall syndrome. Hall was head of the US Communist Party until his death a couple of years ago at the age of about a billion. In Soviet days (I have been told), Gus Hall was on Soviet TV all the time talking about how all the American working class really loved the USSR and were Communists at heart and the only reason the CP couldn’t get elected was because evil capitalists were controlling the media. As a result, people in the USSR thought Gus Hall was this big American political figure with a huge public backing who represented large swathes of American public opinion, when actually few people in the United States had ever heard of him.
Hey, maybe Bab has something on the Labour Party, given that he got asylum-for-money instead of just a peerage. That might explain the Brits’ incredibly ludicrous attempts to cover his ass.
“The supposed assassin, a certain “Mr. A,” was arrested and deported on 21 June 2007.”
Jesus! Averko has moved taking on not so Russia friendlies to a whole new level. This must be part of Operation Kick Ass 2008.
”Jesus! Averko has moved taking on not so Russia friendlies to a whole new level. This must be part of Operation Kick Ass 2008.”
Hahaha! Priceless:-) Well spotted!
Dear Sean: Poisoning charges leveled against the FSB should not be dismissed out of hand. Whatever Gordon Brown may or may not have said to Medvedev, there is ample reason for suspecting the FSB in the Litvinenko poisoning. This is because the KGB and the FSB have a long track record of using poison to eliminate their enemies, and have often shown a preference for Thallium and Polonium. Here are a few examples from Soviet times and the more recent past:
1957
Following his defection to the United States in 1953, former KGB Assassin Nikolay Khokhlov was poisoned, probably on orders of the KGB 13th Directorate. He recovered in a West German hospital. The exact poison was never determined, but was narrowed to two suspects: Thallium and Polonium.
1958
Ukrainian nationalist leader Stepan Bandera was assassinated in Munich by KGB agent Bogdan Stashinskiy. Stashinskiy shot Bandera while passing him on the steps, using a cyanide gas gun concealed in a rolled up newspaper. Initially, it was thought that Bandera had died of a heart attack.
1962
During their investigation of Colonel Oleg Penkovskiy for espionage, KGB agents reportedly planted poisoned wax on the seat of Penkovskiy’s office chair. As a result, Penkovskiy was hospitalized, giving the KGB the opportunity to plant bugs and cameras in his office and apartment and thereafter to obtain incriminating evidence. Penkovskiy, one of the most effective spies ever recruited by the West, was the first to reveal that the so-called “missile gap,” a dominant theme of the Kennedy-Nixon campaign, did not actually exist.
1971
According to former KGB official Oleg Kalugin, five KGB agents successfully poisoned dissident novelist Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn with a near-fatal dose of ricin. The five agents followed Solzhenitsyn into a grocery store in the city of Novocherkassk and stuck him with a needle to administer the poison.
1975
Georgian dissident Zviad Gamsakhurdia reportedly survived two KGB attempts to poison him.
1978
Bulgarian dissident Georgi Markov was fatally poisoned by ricin while walking in London. The ricin was delivered by means of an umbrella that was jabbed into him from behind.
and more recently…
March 2002
Prominent Chechen commander Omar Khattab was reportedly poisoned in a successful FSB operation. Khattab was handed a letter by a trusted associate who, unbeknownst to Khattab, had been turned by the FSB. The letter, which was doctored with an unspecified neurotoxin, killed Khattab in five minutes.
July 3, 2003
Yabloko Duma Deputy and investigative journalist Yuriy Shchekochikhin died suddenly, reportedly of an “acute allergic reaction,” but relatives and political allies suspected that he had been poisoned. Observers speculated at the time that Shchekochikhin may have been murdered in order to prevent him from uncovering the true story of the FSB’s involvement in the 1999 apartment bombings, which took 243 lives and were blamed on Chechen terrorists. Recent media stories indicate that the Russian authorities continue to refuse to cooperate with relatives in an investigation of Shchekochikhin’s death, prompting even deeper suspicions about the true circumstances of his “allergic reaction.” Speculation that Shchekochikhin may have been poisoned was lent even greater credence by the fact that only three months earlier another apartment bombing investigator, “Liberal Russia” Duma Deputy Sergey Yushenkov, was shot to death. Just to muddy the waters further, in September 2003, stories surfaced in London that an SVR agent had attempted to poison exiled Oligarch Boris Berezovskiy, a prominent proponent of the FSB-apartment bombing theory.
October 2003
On October 26, during the Nord Ost crisis, Russian authorities pumped “incapacitating gas” into a Moscow theater in an effort to free over 800 hostages held by Chechen terrorists. The gas, Tri-Methyl Fentanyl, was intended to knock out everyone quickly, but, through some dreadful miscalculation, was pumped into the theater in sufficient strength to have fatal effects. 129 hostages died.
January 2004
Russian Presidential candidate and Berezovskiy ally Ivan Rybkin mysteriously disappeared from Moscow in late January. Five days later, he resurfaced in Kyiv. Later, after returning to Moscow and then London for drug tests, Rybkin claimed he was lured to Kyiv on the false promise of peace talks with Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov. Instead, according to Rybkin, he was drugged and compromising videos were taken of him. As of now, no proof has surfaced to substantiate Rybkin’s claims. Putin spin-doctor Gleb Pavlovskiy theorized that Rybkin was just seeking an excuse to withdraw from the Presidential contest, and that he dreamed up the kidnap story to cover himself. Others are not so sure, but the following month Rybkin did indeed withdraw from the race.
September 2004
Anna Politkovskaya, one of Russia’s premier investigative journalists, was poisoned while traveling to Beslan to cover the hostage crisis there. According to Politkovskaya, she got on a plane, drank some tea and promptly passed out. Politkovskaya believed that she was sidelined on orders from the FSB.
September 5, 2004
Ukrainian opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko fell ill shortly after having dinner with SBU head Ihor Smeshko. In December, Austrian doctors confirmed that Yushchenko had been poisoned with a near-fatal dose of dioxin. At present there is no sure indication of who may have administered the poison or precisely how it was ingested, although the Ukrainian authorities claim that they know who was behind the poisoning. Suspects in the case have reportedly fled to Russia.
September 24, 2004
Roman Tsepov, a shady businessman and associate of Vladimir Putin during his days as Deputy Mayor of St. Petersburg, died of poisoning. The type of poison was never identified, except that it was radioactive and the symptoms were the same as those suffered two years later by Litvinenko. Tsepov, who had a number of connections with the St. Petersburg underworld, had been the target of numerous assassination attempts over the years.
November 23, 2006
Aleksandr Litvinenko died of Polonium-210 poisoning in London. Former KGB agents Dmitriy Kovtun and Andrey Lugovoy are suspected in the murder.
November 28, 2006
Former Yeltsin Prime Minister Yegor Gaidar fell ill in London, suffering from a mysterious illness that he claimed was poisoning.
March, 2007
American citizens Marina Kovalevsky and her daughter Yanna returned to Los Angeles after suffering Thallium poisoning in Moscow. Initially listed as being in fair condition, they were treated at Cedars Sinai Hospital and released. It is unknown whether they were deliberate targets of poisoning, or just unlucky.
I don’t know about you, but the next time I go to Russia, I’m going to take along some MRE’s, and I am NOT drinking any tea!
Jamestown had a really good piece today about this whole scandal, including a discussion of the identity of “Mr. A.”
On the other hand, I rather prefer the speculation here. Just think, soon the BBC can quote “anonymous internet sources” as verifying that the origins of a massive plot involving several intelligence agencies and radioactive hits around the world have been traced not to Moscow or Chechnya but to…Long Island.
”On the other hand, I rather prefer the speculation here.”
As Tim Newman has noted, when Mike Averko said here a wgile back that swimming in an Olympic pool is different to swimming in rough water, ”never let it be said that this blog isnt a fountain of knowledge that cant be found elsewhere”
”Just think, soon the BBC can quote “anonymous internet sources” as verifying that the origins of a massive plot involving several intelligence agencies and radioactive hits around the world have been traced not to Moscow or Chechnya but to…Long Island.”
Well the evidence is mounting. The big question is, where was Mr A deported to? If it was New York, Tiraspol or Belgrade then we can draw our own conclusions. Mr A in London, uses a Guardian Talk page, surname starts with A, hates Russia Unfriendlies, defends Russia ceaselessly -a coincidence? I think not.
And lets face it, the Beeb have used even more spurious evidence than that before!
By the way Lyndon congrats on your recent graduation! Is the evidence we are presenting enough in your legal opinion?
“Jamestown had a really good piece today about this whole scandal, including a discussion of the identity of “Mr. A.””
Interesting. Strange. I wouldn’t have thought of a Nukhaev link (he’s supposedly dead BTW). Do Chechen crime bosses normally engage in assassination personally?
Um, a little off the subject but is your new President a \”smart guy\” as Bush says?
He has to be smarter than Bush, but then again, who isn\’t.
http://www.pafundi.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Number of Operations Iraq Freedom and Enduring Freedom casualties as confirmed by U.S. Central Command: 4638
By the way Lyndon congrats on your recent graduation! Is the evidence we are presenting enough in your legal opinion?
Ger, thanks. Unfortunately graduation from law school does not make one a “lawyer” (whether one wants to be identified in that way is another matter entirely); in order to dispense legal advice you first have to pass the bar exam, which I’ll be taking at the end of this month (and no, in spite of the name, it’s not a drinking contest).
But in any event, when did journalists (much less bloggers) ever have evidentiary standards about publishing info like this? It seems like you’ve put together a compelling circumstantial case, so although it wouldn’t fly in a court of law it should be perfectly good for the media.
Well, I doubt that Putin will ever have the nobility of heart to comfort the victims of his own presidency. As shown below, in at least this one regard, G.W. Bush is showing himself morally superior to Putin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aEURwsrUSQ
You are assuming that these people are somehow the victims of the Putin presidency, which strikes me as weird.
Well.. in short… if Brits (Brown&Co) decided to f^%^k themselves – I see no reason not to let them do this
PS. Chris, are you coming to island?
Kolya. I didn’t get you point
Was the clip from comedy club show? Or what?
Yes, Ivanov, it was all for laughs. My comment with the link was with written with tongue firmly in cheek. The clip is from The Onion, which specializes in fake news and spoofs. Often their stuff falls flat, but sometimes they hit the mark and it’s very funny.
Here is the site in case you want to check it out:
http://www.theonion.com/content/index
Well, that’s what I get for being a moron and posting before I click Kolya’s link.
Where is the Assassin anyway? He’s been gone for awhile. Perhaps busy polishing up his garrotting and poisoning skills.
In defence of George W. Bush, the History will always remember him as a man that killed Saddam and saved America from Gore and Kerry.
A mo(i)st excellent excuse to repost a link to “The Polonium Files” on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=polonium+files&search_type=&aq=f
P.S. Do you know about the obscene british version of the Onion? http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/
Well I doubt anyone will remember Saddam and least Gore. Saddam bubble existed only in virtual reality of TV/newspapers etc.
What he might be remembered for – the hate towards US he managed to boil in the world. And results of that hate (that we’ll have to deal with).
“In defence of George W. Bush, the History will always remember him as a man that killed Saddam and saved America from Gore and Kerry.”
Haha, you’re kidding, right?
“What he might be remembered for – the hate towards US he managed to boil in the world. And results of that hate (that we’ll have to deal with).”
Like, for example?
Dear Sean: Poisoning charges leveled against the FSB should not be dismissed out of hand. Whatever Gordon Brown may or may not have said to Medvedev, there is ample reason for suspecting the FSB in the Litvinenko poisoning. This is because the KGB and the FSB have a long track record of using poison to eliminate their enemies, and have often shown a preference for Thallium and Polonium.
ShoeOne’s comment got caught in the spam filter. I didn’t notice it until this morning.
I actually don’t dispute the fact that elements in the FSB killed Litvinenko. I don’t believe that the order for the hit came from the top. There were a lot of current and former FSB people who wanted Litvinenko’s head. After all, what he did was seen as an act of betrayal. I wouldn’t doubt that his poisoning was an act of revenge.
As far as the list you provide. I completely reject the idea that Gaidar, Mrs. Marina Kovalevsky and her daughter Yanna, Roman Tsepov, and Nord Ost have anything to do with nefarious attempts by the FSB.
Isn’t thinking that everything in Russia emanates from an all controlling eye in the Kremlin a little played out by now?
I should also add that I don’t fully buy that Politkovskaya was poisoned.
“This is because the KGB and the FSB have a long track record of using poison to eliminate their enemies, and have often shown a preference for Thallium and Polonium.”
Isn’t the one and only person known to have been poisoned by the KGB that Bulgarian dissident in the 1970s? And that was the Bulgarian KGB.
The real KGB is not the KGB that appears in Hollywood movies.
Dear Chrisius Maximus: Click on the “comment” hyperlink in Sean’s post and it will take you back to my original post from July 9 at 7:55am. There, I list 16 instances in which the KGB/FSB or its organized crime surrogates are suspects in poisoning regime opponents. I only list the significant cases between 1957 and 1978, and some of the more recent ones since 2002 (a few of which, like the Politkovskaya alleged poisoning, are just put in for completeness). Believe me when I say that there are plenty of others during the last fifty years. I would note that the first case in 1957 is a Thallium/Polonium poisoning of KGB defector Nikolay Khokhlov. The last case in 2007 is the apparent accidental Thallium poisoning in Moscow of a Russian émigré family, who were hospitalized immediately after they returned to Los Angeles.
By the way, best regards and congratulations to Lyndon, whom I knew in Leningrad when he was just a little kid going to Soviet public school. His Russian was great back then, too.
Interesting gap there between 1978 and 2002. So we have a poisoning in 1978, then a generation passes, and then a spot of suspected poisonings.
Gaidar says he was poisoned by enemies of Putin, so what he’s doing on the list is beyond me.
The fact that no poisonings are listed between 1978 and 2002 does not mean that there were no poisonings during those years. As I noted in my previous two posts, my list does not cover the years 1978-2002. The current list is only illustrative to show that poisoning has a long tradition in the Soviet Union and Russia (incidentally, it was also a favored technique in Tsarist Russia). Give me some time to do the necessary research, and I’ll be happy to provide a more complete list.
“The letter, which was doctored with an unspecified neurotoxin, killed Khattab in five minutes.”
Hey, if the FSB is capable of killing people with these awesome super-poisons that kill you in 5 minutes after contact, why is it messing around with archaic Thallium?
“Isn’t thinking that everything in Russia emanates from an all controlling eye in the Kremlin a little played out by now?”
I have a theory why some Russian liberals believe this. They wish it were 1970 and they were heroic dissidents (not that many of them actually were dissidents — most of the ex-dissidents are pro-Kremlin). They tend to have really big egos, and want to feel like they are fighting a great monster, without actually being in any danger (so Kasparov tramps around advocating democracy in Russia rather than Azerbaijan). Unfortunately for their egos and fortunately for their skins, they can say and do pretty much whatever they want in Russia. Bummer. Thus, they have construct an imaginary monster to stand in place of the nonexistent one.
Just saw on Bloomberg tv that the ever-dependable China and Russia have actually VETOED sanctions against Zimbabwe at the United Nations.
I dont care what anyone says -even by Russian standards this is a new low, it really is. God Help Us in the hands of these people if we become seriously dependent on them for energy. The sooner someone figures out nuclear fusion the better, cos left to the Russians, the world truly is fucked.
“I dont care what anyone says -even by Russian standards this is a new low, it really is.”
China would probably have vetoed the sanctions anyway (they do have a track record), so it is fairly likely that Russia’s volte-face veto more or less riskless in this case was aimed at the UK after the friendly BBC/security services slap in the face they recently gave Russia.
As for worrying about the Russian’s in future, I don’t think we can either hold them entirely responsible for the lack of action over the rwandan genocide and other great triumphs of civilized behavior, nor the current war of liberation in Iraq and Afghanistan. Still, it is all about marketing.
”As for worrying about the Russian’s in future, I don’t think we can either hold them entirely responsible for the lack of action over the rwandan genocide and other great triumphs of civilized behavior, nor the current war of liberation in Iraq and Afghanistan. Still, it is all about marketing.”
Aleks in fairness I can appreciate that, but this is going beyond the pale altogether. China, lets face it, has form in this area, but the Russians should have shown some bloody maturity and decency. We’ve all seen what’s been happening in Zimbabwe on tv. Surely the Russian government could for once in their lives have done the decent thing?
I’m just stunned (though I shouldnt be really) and furious. It makes me want to throw all my Russian language study books and maps on the walls and literature and even my Zemfira CDs out the window in anger.
Utterly disgusted.
What happens in Zimbabwe is the problem of Africans. And unless I am mistaken, Africans are not big on this sanctions against Zimbabwe thing.
“Aleks in fairness I can appreciate that, but this is going beyond the pale altogether.”
Yeah, this is way worse than the Rwandan genocide.
”What happens in Zimbabwe is the problem of Africans. And unless I am mistaken, Africans are not big on this sanctions against Zimbabwe thing.”
So its ok for the Russians to vote against sanctions because the rest of Africa or most of the rest would do the same? That being the case we can equate the Russians with Angola, Liberia etc? Funny I thought Russia was a member of the G8, not a large-scale tinpot tyrant.
”Yeah, this is way worse than the Rwandan genocide.”
Chris this is not what I said at all and you know it isnt and I wish you wouldnt be such a fucking smartarse sometimes.
“Chris this is not what I said at all and you know it isnt and I wish you wouldnt be such a fucking smartarse sometimes.”
Smartassedness is my forte!
Especially after a couple of beers like last night.
My position is the Africans, such as Mbeki, be they tinpot dictators or no, know much more about what is going on in Zimbabwe than either we or the leaders of the G8 know. They also know more about possible repurcussions on the region, such as yet more Zimbabweans pouring into South Africa, which just had a large pogrom against them. Thus, you should listen to the Africans.
Russia has gotten out of the exporting ideology business.
I don’t believe that relieving responsiblity from the Africans for their neighborhood is very helpful at all, that’s so 20th century! They’ve done a brillant job in getting the nascent African Union up and running, despite all the problems it still faces. If they require support, then it should be given, not foisted.
How does ‘our’ help benefit the development of these nations? Why should nations and their neighbors bother to sort out their own problems when they know all they have to do is sit back and the west will come riding to the rescue, if it is cheap enough, near enough, our economic/political interests are strongly enough reperesented? It is not like western interventions since 1989 have been stunningly successful or anything.
Is the west forever to send troops on ‘foreign adventures’ around the world and the taxpayer to always pick up the tab? If anything, it is an excuse to maintain excessively high defense budgets, i.e. if you don’t use it (all those nice aircraft carriers and troop ships) how to you justify it?
Back on track, I just had the misfortune to listen to ‘Politics UK’ on the BBC, the program introduced by the words ‘Why has Russia got it in for the UK?’.
The program presenter had a stunningly balance analysis of the problems, namely former top british spy Pauline Neville(sp?)-Jones (and now working for the Conservatives) basically saying the Russians are paranoid and like to pick fights. She glossed over asylum given to Russian oligarchs, missile defense is clearly not a threat to Russia, Putin has reversed all the ‘freedoms’ of the Yeltsin period. She did point out though that the political relations is opposite to the finanacial relations.
Was there anyone else to balance this british view? Was there any value in this part of the program. Nope.
Links:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/politics_uk.shtml
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