Jun
26
eXile Looks to Make Virtual Comeback
June 26, 2008 | 177 Comments
I haven’t done an eXile update in a week or so. I figure it is about time since the keen eyed poemless noted that the rag was saved by donations and plans to make a virtual return in the near future.
The press finally caught up with the eXile’s demise with the Wall Street Journal, Reuters, Fox News, the International Heral Tribune, the London Telegraph, UPI, among others, all reporting the story. All of them basically say the same information repeated ad nauseum, i.e. the irreverent paper folded after Russian inspectors scared off its investors. Even the Committee to Protect Journalists released a News Alert. My favorite headline comes from Danwei from Hong Kong. “Death of the Rude Russian Exile,” its report reads. As Jeremy Goldkorn, the piece’s author, points out,
As far as your correspondent knows, no foreigner has ever tried to publish anything like The Exile in China. The closest thing I have seen is the rather inward-looking and music obsessed Eight Inches of Arsehole, a photocopied zine that was distributed in bars in Beijing and amongst the expatriate hipster musician types and people with strong thoughts about Beijing expatriate magazines.
But it was photocopied, anonymous, and had no advertising or pretense of being commercial media. And they never touched politics.
Makes you wonder why Russia, and not China, is more the scourge of all freedom lovers.
It also makes me wonder why almost all of the reports listed above never mentioned the “e” word. Not even the lefty Mother Jones made the fact that the eXile was being audited for extremism an issue, despite hailing it as the “World’s Best Alt-Weekly” (the word only appears in a quote one of Ames’ Radar Online posts.) In fact, according to one of my handy dandy LexisNexis searches, extremism only appears into two articles on the subject. One written by Ames himself and the BBC Monitoring Service’s translation of Limonov’s article. How strange. Especially since if anyone wants to make a bigger political issue out of the eXile’s demise, Russia’s elastic extremism law is surely the issue.
As for Ames’ whereabouts, we might want to dust off an old Where’s Waldo? games. According to Ames’ latest dispatch, he could be in London (or even here in LA) or undergoing a water boarding session in a back room at Sheremetyevo.
Before Ames shipped out of Russia, he got the unique pleasure to debate Nashist and Duma rep Robert Schlegel on Moscow’s Govorit Moskva, 92.0 FM. About a month and a half ago Schlegel tried to make his legislative mark by introducing a bill to further harden Russia libel law. President Medvedev shot him down. Schlegel, as Ames describes him, “isn’t entirely human the way you and I are, but is rather some kind of genetically engineered Boys From Brazil product, created so that he might one day serve a cruel and scary tyrant.” Indeed. If you take a look at Radar’s accompanying photo, you will see that no Russian has looked this Aryan since Ivan Drago.
The debate went as expected. You can read a transcipt (in Russian) here.
Perhaps the most interesting mainstream article on the “eXile Affair” (If there can be a Litvinenko Affair why not an eXile one?), was an article in the Moscow Times (reprinted in the St. Petersburg Times) by Owen Mathews. He argues that the eXile’s demise has much more symbolic meaning. He writes,
The story of The eXile is the story of an earlier, pre-boom Moscow, before gourmet supermarkets and sushi restaurants sprouted on every corner. The eXile was born in a place that was dark, vibrant and absolutely compelling. The money, the sin and the beautiful people — it was doomed, apocalyptic and transiently beautiful. The incandescent energy of the pretty, deluded party kids whom the paper wrote about could have lit up this blighted country for a century if channeled into anything other than self-destruction and oblivion.
Perhaps the end of the eXile is symbolic of Russia crossing the Rubicon into a full fledged Putinian utopia.
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177 Comments so far
So, has anyone come across information about the \’surge\’ from another source than Ames himself?
Skipping the debate about extremism can be forgiven, failing to crosscheck information is more serious.
Oh sorry i forget, when it comes to a totalitarian state journalists are exempted from such requirements. The state after all will only lie. Silence on the state\’s behalf, inverted, is sufficient proof that it actually happened.
Concerning extremism, the much more interesting case is that blogger Savva Terentiyev, who is in a law suit for a call on his blog to erect at large squares in every russian city, an oven, like in Auschwitz, where daily and ritually policemen should be burned.
Tasteless, quite. But extremist? I don\’t think the judge has spoken out yet. Anyone?
To make the story more interesting, Savva\’s father is being charged by a colleague, teacher, also for a blogpost. The father held his colleage responsible for the demise of jazz culture in the city, adding a few denigrating descriptions.
This Terentiyev affaire is a great story about freedom on the internet, but most likely way to complex for the international media.
So, returning to my initial question; has anyone seen information confirming Ames\’ story of the raid on Exile office?
Greetings, Joera
“The story of The eXile is the story of an earlier, pre-boom Moscow, before gourmet supermarkets and sushi restaurants sprouted on every corner. The eXile was born in a place that was dark, vibrant and absolutely compelling. The money, the sin and the beautiful people — it was doomed, apocalyptic and transiently beautiful.”
This is the kind of statement that brings out my lingering sparks of raging self-righteousness. What kind of person in his/her right mind would write such a thing? I suppose it was really cool if you were a foreign dickhead, but not if you were part of 90% of the population. A cheap holiday in other people’s misery. (I know, I’m still going with the Sex Pistols references.)
PS hi Joera! Any plans on coming back to Moscow?
“Skipping the debate about extremism can be forgiven, failing to crosscheck information is more serious.”
Mentioning the extremism angle would require talking about Limonov. The extremism angle is not mentioned for the same reason nobody mentions that Other Russia is named after Limonov’s book.
“The raid” was, in reality, a half-assed inspection that resulted in a minor fine.
http://www.mr-msk.ru/story/top/story_3560.html
Oh, hey, wow thanks for the shout out!
As far as verifying a raid, inspectors said they were doing a routine audit, something like 500 of which are done each year. From a Moscow Times piece:
“One of the federal inspectors, Irina Pavlova, said Wednesday that the inspection was complete but declined to say what conclusions the inspectors had reached.
Asked for her personal impressions of The eXile, she simply said, ‘It’s a normal newspaper.’ ”
Ames was fined $22, I believe. And “conceded that the technical infringements were “absolutely valid.”
Another slightly humorous turn of events came when the WSJ (whose article was pretty good, actually) concluded its article by citing the closure of Moskovsky Korrespondent as an example of how papers Putin does not like are being shut down under pressure from the government. The next day the Moscow Times announced that Moskovsky Korrespondent was re-opening.
“The story of The eXile is the story of an earlier, pre-boom Moscow, before gourmet supermarkets and sushi restaurants sprouted on every corner. The eXile was born in a place that was dark, vibrant and absolutely compelling. The money, the sin and the beautiful people — it was doomed, apocalyptic and transiently beautiful.”
”This is the kind of statement that brings out my lingering sparks of raging self-righteousness. What kind of person in his/her right mind would write such a thing? ”
I agree. Its a pile of bullshit. It was however a way of life for a lot of expats, and one which I witnessed frequently. A lot of guys, deserevedly I might add, left Moscow bewildered, drunkard and with a few STDs to boot. A lot of it was quite pathetic. We all know expats who behaved and thought this way, guys who’d be in Russia a year and yet still couldnt use the metro, hanging around Nightflight and the Whorehouse. I think for a period in the mid-nineties Moscow became some sort of refuge for Western losers and sickos. Apart from guys who couldnt get enough boom-boom, you had people who just wanted to – its hard phrase this right- to be sort of looked up to or admired simply because they were foreign. A lot of people got off on the whole Dark Moscow vibe. Thankfully those days are gone and Muscovites dont have to put up with that shite anymore.
Thanks for the info that there was a raid, albeit nothing much extraordinaire.
I agree to the ‘pure freedom is not all that ….’ point of view, that is for people with a sense of diginity and ethics.
Chris, i’ll be around when i have some money. Most likely end of summer, autumn. I am looking for a job in russia though, so perhaps as of next year, we’ll meet more often.
Greetings, Joera
“I think for a period in the mid-nineties Moscow became some sort of refuge for Western losers and sickos.”
I betcha this was the period when Mike was in Moscow!
Speaking of which, I was watching old episodes of Bottom last night on youtube, and the Rik Mayall character really reminds me of Mike. A lot.
”I betcha this was the period when Mike was in Moscow!”
The Tiraspol Times is apparently doing an eXile and allegedly being ‘pressured’ by the Moldovan government. More like its been rumbled long ago as a propoganda organ with no print version and is maybe going under.
Well, the TT could be BOTH a propaganda organ AND being pressured by the Moldovan government (how?).
“If you want any books from this end of the world have a think and let me know and I’ll bring em.”
Hey, do they sell those Loeb Classic Library books in Ireland, you know, ancient literature with English on one page and Greek or Latin on the facing page? I would love some of those.
I think for a period in the mid-nineties Moscow became some sort of refuge for Western losers and sickos.
Wow. You’ve just described every oil town I’ve ever worked in, especially Baku and Abu Dhabi. Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk is one of the best, though.
”Hey, do they sell those Loeb Classic Library books in Ireland, you know, ancient literature with English on one page and Greek or Latin on the facing page? I would love some of those.”
”Wow. You’ve just described every oil town I’ve ever worked in, especially Baku and Abu Dhabi. Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk is one of the best, though.”
In fairness the availability of tons of money (guys were very well paid in Moscow then), cheap booze/smokes and limitless birds is likely to corrupt those who could be perhaps easily corrupted. But I think a lot of it was down to rearing and education and basic respect for other people. You, Chris Doss, Lyndon, Sean and to a lesser extent me have all learned Russian and tried to know something about the place. Mike Averko would have huge respect and genuine interest in Russia and if he’d been there for long enough I’m sure he’d study the language. But a lot of people just dont give a shit about anything even remotely brain-stretching and just dont have the basic bit of respect to bother learning about the place and trying to speak the language. And in mid-nineties Moscow they didnt have to, cos Russians pandered to them. They really were exiled, and as such the worst human characteristics come out. For me one of the biggest little thrills of being in Russia is when you speak Russian to a local and they are amazed for a second and give you a look and a smile as if to say ”thank you for bothering to learn our language”. Looking at the condition of some expats in the Boarhouse etc, is was obvious they didnt have respect for themsleves, so they couldnt have it for anyone else. I mean after a while I used to avoid to expat scene like the plague, including the Irish, who were right up there with the most obnoxious. An expat-ellas? They’re even worse! I remember meeting a woman once from the Aussie embassy. She was just a total dog, both physically and mentally. I mean even by Aussie standards she was the pits, and thats saying something. She HATED the Russians, as obviously she was unlikely to even find a g-string big enough to fit her in Moscow. Instead of making any attempt to immerse themselves, a lot of expats isolated themselves, and ended up alcoholics and sleeping with pros. Sad but true.
This is getting fishy. The story is ever-mutating! In Rolling Stone (Russian version), Ames is quoted as stating that the people who were supposedly scared off by the auditors were “foreign investors.”
Oh, the same issue of Rolling Stone has a several page article by — Eduard Limonov!
“Mike Averko would have huge respect and genuine interest in Russia and if he’d been there for long enough I’m sure he’d study the language.”
No he wouldn’t; narcissists never do any work. The whole point of narcissistic personality disorder is maintaining the illusion that the person is perfect and special. The idea that there is something the person SHOULD do implies that the person is not perfect NOW, and thus is an affront to the narcissist.
”No he wouldn’t; narcissists never do any work”
Actually thats right. When a guy wont even check basic facts, who could he learn a language really? But, do you doubt that he is perfect???
Article in Russia Profile about exile
The demise of Moscow’s most provocative English-language paper bodes ill for Dmitry Medvedev’s rule of law project. Earlier this month, it became apparent that the eXile, a Moscow based English-language newspaper, was shutting down. That may not mean much to you if you don’t live in Moscow, and even if you do you may be glad to see the back of it. But the nature of the closure (the newspaper’s investors deserted it after its offices were inspected by a government agency) raises a lot of questions: about press freedom in Russia generally, and the status of the English-language press in particular, but most of all about President Dmitry Medvedev’s loudly proclaimed support for the rule of law – and his commitment to it.
In the interests of balance, let me put my cards on the table immediately: I liked the eXile. I think it is, or was (defiance and hope compel me to use the present tense, realism makes me use the past), far and away the best of the half-dozen English-language papers in Moscow, and I resent being deprived of it.
Its coverage was refreshing and insightful, and it ran stories that other news sources would not have touched with a bargepole. It was fiercely independent, heaping equal scorn on Western Russo-phobia and Russian corruption. It was also startlingly honest (mostly about the faults of others), and its indictments of the vacuity and laziness of much mainstream Western journalism about Russia were painfully accurate.
It was also mildly pornographic, almost certainly libelous, and unnecessarily insulting to almost all it wrote about, or read it. It was crude, misogynistic, racist and immature, and not everybody will mourn its passing. Many, I am sure, will be inclined to see the demise of this singularly anarchic publication as another sign of Russia’s “normalization.” The editors themselves often hinted that their paper was an anachronistic relic of the chaos of the 1990s.
They might have a point, if it were not for the fact that its demise reeks of the same lawlessness that created it. For the eXile is suffering a very Russian death. In America, it is true, it would probably have been sued out of existence, or at least bankrupted by legal fees. Britain’s infamously draconian libel laws would have silenced it even earlier. But the eXile is not dying as a result of a court order. Instead, the newspaper was subjected to an “unscheduled audit” by a government agency called the Federal Service for Mass Media, Telecommunications and the Protection of Cultural Heritage. According to the Moscow Times, they were investigating the eXile for violation of article four of the Law on Mass Media, which outlaws the promotion of extremism, pornography or narcotics.
That inspection, says Mark Ames, one of the eXile’s co-editors, was all it took to cause the paper’s financial backers to disappear overnight, and for past contributors to distance themselves from the publication. In short, the great raft of collaborators that keeps a newspaper afloat scattered, and the eXile was left to drown.
The Law on Mass Media, incidentally, has been around since 1991, and article four was amended in 1995, 2000 (when the bit about drugs was added), and 2002. The eXile has been cheerfully reviewing massage parlours and chronicling drug and alcohol fuelled excess since 1997. And while arbitrary “audits” are a well-known hazard of doing business in Russia, they are apparently unprecedented in the print media. So when Ames told the Moscow Times that he had “no idea” what had sparked the inspection, he was probably expressing genuine bewilderment.
Arbitrary or not, though, the law is the law. And who knows, maybe this unexpected zeal was sparked by the noble sentiments of Medvedev’s crusade against “legal nihilism.” If it was though, it backfired spectacularly.
Legally, the eXile and its partners had nothing to be afraid of. Even if they were found to be in violation of article four, the most the inspectors could do was issue a warning. Only after a second warning, which would take several months, could they seek the paper’s closure through the courts (and a court case, of course, would give the paper a chance to defend itself. And you never know, it might even have won). Violation of article four, officially at least, carries no threat of imprisonment or serious fines.
But the guarantees and safeguards of legislation apparently meant nothing to the eXile’s investors. One sign that the paper had caught the authorities’ attention, and they dropped it like it was a red-hot poker. You’d be hard pushed to find a better example of “legal nihilism.”
The eXile’s is being destroyed by fear, a fear that pervades life in Russia, particularly business and political life. That fear is perpetuated both by the arbitrary application of the law and a lack of faith in its protection. That is exactly what president Medvedev pledged to fight when he promised to uphold the “supremacy of law.” In fact, he recently ordered the government to draft a law protecting small businesses from exactly the kind of “unscheduled audits” that the eXile fell victim to. It is true that the task is massive, and that these are early days, but the shameful destruction of a brave, if debauched, newspaper is not an auspicious start.
http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?pageid=Politics&articleid=a1214325433
“But the guarantees and safeguards of legislation apparently meant nothing to the eXile’s investors. One sign that the paper had caught the authorities’ attention, and they dropped it like it was a red-hot poker. You’d be hard pushed to find a better example of “legal nihilism.””
Alternatively, you could be hard-pushed to find a better example of people finding an excuse to drop a loss-making investment.
“a fear that pervades life in Russia”
OK, let’s take a poll. All people here who have spent any time in Russia who felt a sense of pervasive fear, please raise your hands.
(It will be helpful if, in addition to raising your hands, you also type some comment. This may be difficult to do with raised hands, so you may first raise your hands, then lower them, and then type your comment. If you so desire you may then return your hands to the raised position, set them at your side, or employ them in some other useful fashion. It is the initial hand-raising/comment-typing phase that is important.)
Again, I would stress that the issue with the eXile is not legal nihilism, but the State’s ability to deem certain publications and media extremist. The extremist law is of course not legal nihilism at all. It is perfectly legal because each case can fit within the elasticity of the law.
I believe that even the “unscheduled audits” no matter how unprecedented, can be justified within the law.
I for one never felt any pervasive fear in Russia at least not in regard to politics. Business, I wouldn’t know.
“Alternatively, you could be hard-pushed to find a better example of people finding an excuse to drop a loss-making investment.”
That makes a bit more sense, doesn’t it.
Rather than “a fear that pervades life in Russia,” I’d suggest there is “a fear about Russia that pervades a lot of Westerners.” FWIW, in one of his Radar posts, Ames seemed genuinely afraid, but not so much of the State as of his business partners:
“imagine if Romero’s zombies had things like tax bills that can’t be ignored, debts to pay off, favors owed to other important zombies—because you never know when you’ll run into that zombie again.
The partners who’d financed us fled for the hills, leaving my publisher and me holding the debt-bomb in our hands. This is not an easy situation. As a rule, my publisher is unusually easy-going for a Muscovite, but he’s also quite large and intimidating—I mean Baltimore Ravens defensive end large. He also runs a massive nightclub, and, well, let’s just say that my publisher knows a lot of people, including a pal of his who runs the Rasputin Gentlemen’s Club, a multi-floor fleshpot that is everything a male wishes the Winchester Mystery House would have been: rooms that lead to everywhere, to desires and fantasies that you never even knew you had, and that you’ll never admit to the following morning. Rasputin is more than a strip-club and more than a Moscow institution: It’s the apex of a flesh-network, involving scores of smaller, lesser strip clubs that feed into Rasputin like minor league teams feeding into the major league club. For nearly five years, from 2002 to 2007, my newspaper’s office was located in the back of Rasputin’s sex club; when we’d order business lunches during work hours, strippers in see-through negligees and glass high-heels brought Borsch and Kotleti to our offices for a mere 40 rubles ($1.50), leading one American former editor to spasm in dangerous palpitation sweats.
Point being: These are good friends to have, but bad enemies to make.
So when my publisher told me last night, “As far as I see it, the Exile’s debts are yours as well, Mark,” my little saga took a very unforeseen and unpleasant turn.”
(http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2008/06/the-end-of-the-exile.php>
All people here who have spent any time in Russia who felt a sense of pervasive fear, please raise your hands.
From a personal point of view, no. From a business point of view, yes. Every company in Russia is in breach of the law in one way or another, the authorities know it, and provided you play ball, i.e. pay a fine, then you will be left alone. But they never let you forget that you could be closed down in an instant at any time they choose. It’s not the same as being hounded by the secret police, but it is very unpleasant nonetheless.
But a lot of people just dont give a shit about anything even remotely brain-stretching and just dont have the basic bit of respect to bother learning about the place and trying to speak the language.
To be fair, this was my attitude in the Middle East. But had I learned the language and really tried to understand the place, I doubt it would have improved my opinions.
And whilst I don’t want to make too much of this, I’ll pause to consider the feelings of a few colleagues of mine who don’t share the same wonder and fascination of Russia that we all do on here. If you don’t have this natural interest, Russia is sometimes not a very nice place and Russians sometimes not very nice people. I think I turn a blind eye to what some of my colleagues dislike most about the place. It is especially difficult for youngish British women who happen to not look stunningly attractive: they get a pretty hard time from the local young men and women alike.
”I’ll pause to consider the feelings of a few colleagues of mine who don’t share the same wonder and fascination of Russia that we all do on here.”
I know, in fairness I have been harsh. If one didnt like Russia a lot, I guess it would be quite easy to end up hating it. At the end of the day it is generally a difficult environment. It just worked for me to have an interest in the place and be amazed by it, and certainly that does mask its many faults. And I know it is very hard on many western women and shouldnt have been so flippant.
Ok, this is not entirely off topic, since the eXile was very cruel to western women, but I’ve heard a lot of anecdotal stuff about this phenomenon of western women having a rough time in Russia. Perhaps it was the circumstances under which I was there (study, not business) but I have trouble really understanding this. Has this problem worsened recently? How much of it is another example of people living in a different culture but expecting everything to be the same as it is at home? Or are we talking about violence and abuse that cross the boundary between annoying/sexist culture of gender relations and real harm?
To be clear, I don’t think Russia is an easy place to live or love, uhm – at all, and has many … issues. But being a western female was the least of my problems there.
“Perhaps it was the circumstances under which I was there (study, not business) but I have trouble really understanding this.”
You must be one of those rare good-looking Western women.
Kidding aside, all the Western women I have known in Russia (like my French roommate), love the place. None of them have been in Russia for business making lots of money, and all of them have been/are here because they studied Russian or had some other interest in the place before they came.
You may now lower your hands, Tim.
“Or are we talking about violence and abuse that cross the boundary between annoying/sexist culture of gender relations and real harm?”
I’ve never met any woman who was abused (as far as I know).
How much of it is another example of people living in a different culture but expecting everything to be the same as it is at home?
In my experience, it is a case of an enlightened western woman who has grown up in a relatively equal society finding herself in an environment where women seem to think that looking beautiful is more important than any behavioural attribute such as politeness and friendliness, and where men generally appreciate beauty far more than they do brains. When a female engineer who happens to not be very good looking arrives in Sakhalin, a lot of the women consider her inferior because she doesn’t apply her make-up with a trowel, and the men either ignore her or pay more attention to the brainless receptionist with big tits. Seriously, I love the place*, but I can understand why some people don’t.
* Largely for the abundance of brainless receptionists with big tits. Joke.
Incidentally, although I think I would have had a great first couple of months had I arrived in Sakhalin single, I am so grateful that I am here as a married bloke. You tend to avoid most of the more unpleasant side of Russian life if you are already married, I guess because you don’t risk getting involved with some of Russia’s more – how can I say this? – emotional womenfolk. I suppose I’m saying that life in Russia is pretty complicated, being married here makes it that much simpler. Assuming you haven’t married a nutcase, of course.
I think things might be different in Moscow. Lots of women around here dress in the Berkeley lesbian uniform.
”To be clear, I don’t think Russia is an easy place to live or love, uhm – at all, and has many … issues. But being a western female was the least of my problems there.”
Poemless its great that that’s the case for you, genuinely. But I knew plenty of really unhappy western women in Moscow. Like Tim has said there was the obvious babe/10 tons of make-up factor that freaked out a lot of them, not to mention cattiness, something which Russian women are at least as proficient at as our own over here. Funny enough but it seemed happiness was almost directly proportional to language level – a lot of the moaners hadnt any Russian at all. Throw in to the mix that even top-end Russian women are much friendlier and less prone to airs and more amenable to being chatted up than their western equivalent and its easy to see why a lot of western women end up isolated. I’m not saying thats the rule, but that is what my observation has led me to believe. I also knew at least 3 alcoholic western women, all Brits. We’d be carrying them into cabs after nights out. Not to mention a Jehova’s Witness from New Zealand trying to spread the Good News (who wasnt an alcholic, incidently!)
Funny story. Visited an office in Moscow once that had western staff and I was being shown around and introduced. Anyway one of the lads intoduced me to one ****** Hughes from Belfast, a chubby blonde with a face like a bag of spanners and an arse like a bag of ferrets. The minute I opened my mouth she gave me a filthy, barely shook my hand and spent the next few minutes looking at me like I’d just come in from the svalka. I thought, good grief, Moscow is hostile enough without getting dirty looks from Unionists 2,000 miles from home! And I actually hate Sinn Fein!:-)
”You must be one of those rare good-looking Western women”
Pound for pound the best-looking Irishwomen are well able for the Russians. How Russian women win is the sheer quantities of spanking babes and a higher percent babes per head of population.
“Pound for pound the best-looking Irishwomen are well able for the Russians.”
In other words, the best-looking Irishwomen are on par with an average Russian woman?
At the risk of sounding rude, every time I’ve ever met a good-looking British woman, I have later discovered that one of her parents was French.
I’m gonna leap to the defence of British women here. British women aren’t as good looking as Russian women I admit, but they at least have some degree of independence, don’t consider their life’s goal as getting married at 19 and being a housewife, and don’t have this overwhelming sense of entitlement that makes you think your chatting up the lost daughter of the Romanov’s rather than the semi-literate daughter of a villager. My wife excepted, there are very few Russian women I’d really want to spend too much time around clothed.
Most of the Muscovite women I know are either unmarried graduate students or people working in the sciences or charities in their late 20s or various employees of RAN. My ex-girlfriend is a botanist.
I.e., either people I work with or friends of my French roommate (who does charity work) or Russian roommate (who is a grad student and dresses like a Berkeley lesbian. I hope she doesn’t read this blog!).
People operate according to their own expectations and worldviews.
I knew an American missionary woman who felt terrible that Russian women had to live in a society that forced them to dress like whores. It never occurred to her that it might be a choice. I knew a Moscow girl who was an artist and wore baggy clothes and no makeup and was courted by many men in the art scene. I know many middle aged Russian women who have the same aesthetic standards as middle aged American women and the same exhausted attitudes. I know an American engineer whose American company was seriously debating not hiring a well-qualified Russian woman because she would distract everyone from their work with her beauty. I’ve met countless independent professional Russian women, single moms, who take their work more seriously than their lipstick. It’s hardly a country where all women are forced into some Lolita-esque standard. Sure, there are a lot of sexist Russian men. There are a lot of overly romantic sensitive Russian men. Can you feel sorry for western women who have to put up with that too, please? And it would appear, from what I am reading, much of the sexism is coming from the business world and even the western men in it. That exists elsewhere too, because it is a world dominated by men and conformity in all countries. They can probably just get away with more in Russia. Maybe that is the issue, perhaps, which was alluded to up thread: Russia corrupting the easily corruptible.
I guess I’ve always been in the urban, academic setting, so I don’t see this problem as much… Also, I spent most of my time in Moscow, which is pretty cosmopolitan. Also, I was corrupted.
Seriously, though. I honestly don’t know what is “enlightened” about putting all of your effort into making a buck and neglecting your appearance. Of course, everyone has a right to decide these things for themselves and everyone should be judged according to their merit when it comes to the workplace. But women in all countries have to fight for that. That said, given things like the obesity epidemic in the west, it probably would not hurt us to be held to a higher physical standard.
Here is what is not “enlightened”: Going to the Moscow police when a friend has been the victim of a hit and run accident, and having the police ask you if you have a boyfriend and would you like one. True story.
I guess I just am sensitive to stereotypes, esp. when it comes to 1) Russia and 2) gender.
Well maybe it is just a British thing? lol I’m American of Irish&French origin myself…
I think this is all too subjective. I grew up in an American town where all girls wanted to do was get married and be a housewife. All the Russian women I know are professionals.
This is the problem with vast generalizations.
Yes, I am very uncommon with global statements. I mean, “American men” is a group that includes Alan Alda, Mike Tyson, and Mike Averko.
This is the problem with vast generalizations.
I agree, but it’s gonna be a bit difficult to have any kind of discussion on this subject without generalising a lot. I just think British women get put down a lot, especially by British expats. Almost always, the criticisms are extremely superficial, so I have developed a tendency to defend them. Also, the praise heaped on Russian (and a lot of SE Asian) women by British expats tends to be superficial, and I sometimes make a point of not going along with it.
I suppose I just want to defend the British women because I am or was close to a lot of them. My best friend’s wife is British FFS, I’m not going to stand by and allow a foreign woman to slag her kind – my kind – off over crap such as “not knowing how to take care of a man”.
I’ve met countless independent professional Russian women, single moms, who take their work more seriously than their lipstick.
My wife’s friends in St. Petersburg fall much more into this category, but I find it rare in the provinces. Which, as you have pointe out, is probably the same in a lot of countries.
Thanks everyone for this interesting conversation. Things make a bit more sense now.
“I just think British women get put down a lot,”
And yet you refuse to defend Amy Winehouse!
In other words, the best-looking Irishwomen are on par with an average Russian woman?
Three words for you Chris.
Síle Ní Bhraonáin.
Would give any dyev a good game. Gaillimh Abu!
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2690/aaaaaaaaaaauy7.jpg
”I’m gonna leap to the defence of British women here. British women aren’t as good looking as Russian women I admit, but they at least have some degree of independence”
I like our women a lot, in fact, women everywhere are just great! Girls, girls, girls! But seriously I think as poemless has eluded to we’re all sterotyping (me the most) and the truth is it is hard to generalise. But whilst there are certainly lots of Russian women who become academics and are career-minded, I would say 90% of young Russian women still put having babies as the number one priority. Now I know western women delay this themselves too, but you can almost sense with Russian women this is eventually the No 1 priority. I think western women feel that when the right man comes along it’d be a good thing to settle down and have a family, and I think most women want that, but with Russians its the other way around – they MUST find a man and do this, its the be-all and end-all, and if the man happens to tbe crap, so what? They want to go up the isle after two years, which is only getting-to-know-you time over here! For example right now on RTR there’s a show called Kak Naiti Muzha. The very title (in english) wouldnt even get off the ground as a program in this part of the world, where our women, quite rightly, would consider it first pathetic and then insulting.
”There are a lot of overly romantic sensitive Russian men. Can you feel sorry for western women who have to put up with that too, please?”
“For example right now on RTR there’s a show called Kak Naiti Muzha. The very title (in english) wouldnt even get off the ground as a program in this part of the world, where our women, quite rightly, would consider it first pathetic and then insulting.”
Isn’t this show actually based on an American show?
“I would say 90% of young Russian women still put having babies as the number one priority.”
Putin’s plan to solve the demographics problem seems to be working!
” agree, but it’s gonna be a bit difficult to have any kind of discussion on this subject without generalising a lot. I just think British women get put down a lot, especially by British expats.”
This happens all the time with expats. And often the men moaning are fat, ugly and couldnt score at home and hate our women cause of that and think they’re in paradise cos they’ve found a russkaya. Whilst I am an admirer of how Russian women look, western women are often just as good looking and not inferiour in any way.
”off over crap such as “not knowing how to take care of a man”.”
That line is the classic propoganda spin of the Moskvichki. Western women allegedly arent able to look after their husbands. Like so many other Russian stories (the Kursk being hit by a US sub, Russia has a free media, shci is tasty, etc) its a load of bollocks.
I absolutely love Paddy-Women, they’re hilarious and not lacking at all! Russian women equate putting 12 tonnes of make-up on and taking four hours to get ready to go down the kiosk for a packet of fags with looking after their husbands. It aint the same thing dyevushki:-)And boy-oh-boy Russian women are well capable, if not worse than western women when it comes to nagging. Russian women get genuinely jealous of the attention you give to watching FOOTBALL, never mind glancing at a nice popka going by!
”Isn’t this show actually based on an American show?”
Good grief. The US is truly a dying empire.
And often the men moaning are fat, ugly and couldnt score at home and hate our women cause of that and think they’re in paradise cos they’ve found a russkaya.
Yeah, spot on. When I was in Baku I had to listen to a fat, old, unshaven Norwegian with poor teeth slag off British women to a balding, old, British bloke with poor teeth who agreed with him. Both were appallingly dressed, and no British woman with any degree of self-respect would have come within a mile of them.
“Good grief. The US is truly a dying empire.”
This is the show I think I was talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3JLNShhgIM
“Yeah, spot on. When I was in Baku I had to listen to a fat, old, unshaven Norwegian with poor teeth slag off British women to a balding, old, British bloke with poor teeth who agreed with him. Both were appallingly dressed, and no British woman with any degree of self-respect would have come within a mile of them.”
Since I’m single and haven’t had a significant other in over a year, I think I will just shut up.
I think the following two youtube videos are relevant for the important issue now under discussion (Russian women, working women, and women’s proper place in society).
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eFgYKQit0kk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU
The second one is really funny.
When I was in the States lats I caught a copy of the old 50s horror film Attack of the Giant Tarantula on TV. One of the film’s themes is that one of the characters is a Woman Scientist (gasp, horror!). It’s really quite funny.
“Good grief. The US is truly a dying empire.”
American and Russian culture have a lot of things in common, and taste in TV shows is one of them.
“Would give any dyev a good game.”
My God how I hate the word “dyev.”
”My God how I hate the word “dyev.””
Like, get over it already?:-)
I shall not rest until use of the word “dyev” is a thing of the distant past, and the very knowledge that such a word ever existed effaced from the collective memory of humanity forever and all time.
OK, let’s take a poll. All people here who have spent any time in Russia who felt a sense of pervasive fear, please raise your hands.
I raise my “hands”.
First thing that striked me on coming back was all the metal plated doors and fenced lower windows, in every area of every city I’ve been to. That was a huge contrast even with Soviet times.
In the US home decorators offer more and more transparent doors, while in Russia the trend seem to be tank armor plate. How do you explain that but by fear?
AFAIK, there is no word “dyev” in Russian language. The closest is ‘deva’, which is found in books only, but not in common use.
Devka, devushka, devitsa, devchonka cover a wide range of connotations, but ‘dyev’ doesn’t exist.
Right, it’s a stupid word invented by anglophone expatriate men who thought they were clever.
“In the US home decorators offer more and more transparent doors”
Really? I remember everybody being constantly terrified of being robbed.
”AFAIK, there is no word “dyev” in Russian language. The closest is ‘deva’, which is found in books only, but not in common use.”
No shit Sherlock, I’d never have known.
”Devka, devushka, devitsa, devchonka cover a wide range of connotations, but ‘dyev’ doesn’t exist.”
Take chillaxation pill guys. I am aware that dyev doesnt exist, and I know its an anglophone corruption – and so what?
”while in Russia the trend seem to be tank armor plate. How do you explain that but by fear?”
Thats not fear, its common sense in a huge 2nd-world city. Being cautious does not mean afraid; it just mean being cautious. In middle class-USA and Ireland intruders have to get past walls, dogs and burglar alarms – Russians generally do not have this infrastructure, their arses (doors) are litterly to the wind, and so they have to cover them up.
Take chillaxation pill guys. I am aware that dyev doesnt exist, and I know its an anglophone corruption – and so what?
You can’t even imagine how horribly grating “dyev” sounds to Russian ear. Even the gender is wrong.
”You can’t even imagine how horribly grating “dyev” sounds to Russian ear. Even the gender is wrong.”
You cant imagine how funny it is reading someone having a hissy fit over the word ‘dyev’:-)
“In middle class-USA and Ireland intruders have to get past walls, dogs and burglar alarms – Russians generally do not have this infrastructure, their arses (doors) are litterly to the wind, and so they have to cover them up.”
I live with my arse to the wind in the US too. Damn kids leave the door unlocked every other night and there a lot of petty crime going on around. We have cars broken into all over the place and sometimes strange characters climbing over the wall and knocking on the door at night. Once in a while, there is a shooting. Still, not a single solid metal door in the neighborhood, and if you go to the local Home Depot you don’t find any on display; great variety of glass doors instead.
Now, if you go to the getto, you’d see enough metal doors and fenced windows. But we don’t like to go there: too scary, with pervasive sense of fear everywhere.
P.S. I understand burglar alarm companies are doing very good business in Russia.
“You cant imagine how funny it is reading someone having a hissy fit over the word ‘dyev’”
Sorry, amateur wannabe linguists are the very epitome of anal-retentive pricks.
”In middle class-USA and Ireland intruders have to get past walls, dogs and burglar alarms”
OK, I’ll rephrase that to middle-class Ireland only. I dont think I’ve ever been in a Russian flat that had a burglar alarm, or maybe I just didnt notice. I guess that burglar alarms as well as steel doors would indicate fear, but it doesnt feel like fear there, more like common sense.
”Sorry, amateur wannabe linguists are the very epitome of anal-retentive pricks.”
In fairness dyev is an irritating word used by eXile etc, and would get on one’s nerves.
“if you go to the local Home Depot you don’t find any on display”
Maybe that’s why nobody’s buying them.
Seriously, the obvious factor here is that a Russian apartment, unless it is on the ground floor, has ONLY ONE ENTRANCE. A steel door will not help you in an American house, because burglars go THROUGH THE WINDOW.
I’m going to make up an ugly-foreigner word for Irish women, say, “shams,” and use it to the point of annoyance (which shouldn’t take long). How is your sham? That sham over there sure is hot. Man, this club is packed with shams!
““In the US home decorators offer more and more transparent doors”
Really? I remember everybody being constantly terrified of being robbed.”
Not in the US I’m familiar with. And I lived in New York City for a couple of years as well as in Maryland, about 1,000 feet from the Washington, DC, line for over ten years. Yes, crime was a concern, but people were not terrified and most people, including middle class folks, don’t have burglar alarms. (Actually, when we lived in Takoma Park, Maryland, our house was burglarized once. We continued living as before). And Vermont, of course, is in a different league. I don’t even have the keys for our front door. I lost them about a year-and-a-half ago and have not bothered to get another set. Some day I will. This means, though, that for now I don’t lock the door when I go out.
There is a perfectly legit word ‘deva’. Of course it sounds goofy, because it’s archaic and hasn’t been used since about Pushkin times, but at least it’s not obnoxious and boorish.
”I’m going to make up an ugly-foreigner word for Irish women, say, “shams,” and use it to the point of annoyance (which shouldn’t take long). How is your sham? That sham over there sure is hot. Man, this club is packed with shams!”
Did you make up that word yourself? Cos ’sham’ really IS a piece of Irish slang! It means ‘chav’ or ’scumbag’!! In Ireland we say ‘birds’ or ‘young ones’ when talking about dyevushki. Examples:
”Bejaysus she’s sum fine bird”
”De pub was full of young ones”
”Dat bird has a fine arse all the same”
We also use the Irish language word for young women, ‘cailin’ usually with ‘deas’, which means nice (pronounced ColEEN and DYAS) respectively.
”…but at least it’s not obnoxious and boorish.”
Oh for God’s Sake Candide give it a rest. You’re like an old clucking hen, or a dose of ire from a hot day on a building site. ‘Dyev’ is just a quick abbreviation expats used to use when talking about Russian women, often when the expats dont speak any Russian themsleves. Most of the time it is not meant derogatorily, and does not mean ’slut’, ’slapper’ or ‘ho’ or anything like that at all. Such bloody moaning!:-)
And apart from anything else, I’ve hear Zemfira herself use ‘dyev’!
”Dyevushka, dyevushka, dyevushka, dyev dyev dyev dyev dyev dyev dyevushkaaaaaa a dyevushka sozrela”!!
“Not in the US I’m familiar with. And I lived in New York City for a couple of years as well as in Maryland, about 1,000 feet from the Washington, DC, line for over ten years.”
I used to live in Takoma Park, neighbor! True, “terrified” is hyperbole (like “pervasive sense of fear”). But I’ll put it this way: there are (were) parts of DC I would not go into, noway, nohow, whereas there are no parts of Moscow I would not go into. Americans almost never, ever hitchhike; Russians hitchhike all the time.
“Did you make up that word yourself? Cos ’sham’ really IS a piece of Irish slang!”
DAMN! I’ve been preempted.
As long as some people keep squawking nonsense, I’ll just keep clucking sense, thank you very much.
“…dyev dyev dyev dyev dyev dyev dyevushkaaaaaa…” is a typical example of what is called ’scat singing’ in jazz, which is a species of ‘Non-lexical vocables in music’. It is very old and can be found not only in jazz but also in Russian folk songs, such as:
“Yeh, zagu- zagu- zagulal…”
‘Zagu-’ is not a word, and so isn’t ‘dyev-’ a word.
I don’t object to the word because it’s offensive. I object because it’s ‘non-lexical’.
So next time you hear, “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah” or somesuch, don’t assume those sounds are lexical and have any meaning.
Here some more great words Irishman can learn:
“A hidehidehidehidehidehidehi (Hidehidehidehidehidehidehi)
Hodehodehodehodehodehodeho (Hodehodehodehodehodehodeho)
Squidelie Voo Squidelie Voo Squidelie Voodeley Voodeley Voo
Sid did did did didely but did didely skid did didely but din zoy”
(from Minnie the Moocher)
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Minnie-The-Moocher-lyrics-The-Blues-Brothers/A07711ADD18FCDE248256B1F001BC0DE
Candide laid the smackdown on you, Ger.
Ah, but nothing beats the lovely lyrics of this beautiful Indian song. Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRmqZRPgK1w
”So next time you hear, “Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah” or somesuch, don’t assume those sounds are lexical and have any meaning.”
Good grief. Do my eyes deceive me, or did you actually think I was serious when I quoted Zemfira?
”As long as some people keep squawking nonsense, I’ll just keep clucking sense, thank you very much.”
Ah, no. You arent clucking sense at all. You’ve wasted about 10 minutes of your life explaining that dyev isnt a word to someone who already knew that and having a coniption over it at the same time. And its very amusing I have to say:-)
And here’s some Irish classics you can learn;
‘pog mo thon”
‘titim gan eiri leat’
‘don Dibhail duit’
I am not going to po your thon.
”I am not going to po your thon.”
I wouldnt blame you:-)
“Hodehodehodehodehodehodeho ”
This is going to be my slang word for Irishwomen.
“Man, check out that fiiiine hodehodehodehodehodehodeho!”
“Oh, no, my hodehodehodehodehodehodeho left me for Mike Averko! How will I ever endure the shame?”
“Oh, no, my hodehodehodehodehodehodeho left me for Mike Averko! How will I ever endure the shame?”
Would simply ‘ho’ do just fine?:-)
Don’t be vulgar.
Kolya,
I have no idea what those Indians are singing, but the gestures are quite suggestive.
Actually, scat lines can be quite suggestive too. Just remember “Lasha Tumbai”.
Irishman,
You are right, I spent too much time trying to explain that “dyev-” is not a word, but a syllable. I shall cease my efforts now.
If you like to express yourself in mono-syllables, go right ahead, I will not say another word.
”You are right, I spent too much time trying to explain that “dyev-” is not a word, but a syllable. I shall cease my efforts now.”
And I’ve spent too much time replying that I know that dyev is not a word. What part of ”I know that dyev is not a word” dont you understand? Are you normally this irritating and obnoxious or is this just a summer thing?
”… sometimes strange characters climbing over the wall and knocking on the door at night.”
Ahem. You might ask your wife about that. Sounds like somebody thinks Candide is away on business
“strange characters climbing over the wall and knocking on the door at night.”
Averko?
”“strange characters climbing over the wall and knocking on the door at night.”
Averko?”
I doubt it. Unless Candide has a Russocentric, pro-Slobodan Milosevic garden and a Serbocentric house:-)
Like I said, not another word.
A whop bop a-loo
Whop A whop Bam…
Squawk(?)
Candide, Ger and Chris,
For some idiotic reason I sent the wrong link. So when with pompous facetiousness I wrote, “Ah, but nothing beats the lovely lyrics of this beautiful Indian song”, I meant the link below. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA1NoOOoaNw&feature=related
A brilliantly funny idea. Watch the whole song.
Boom boom boom(?)
Better get a higher fence from Home Depot
”A brilliantly funny idea. Watch the whole song.”
I just watched it. Its hilarious!:-) Not just the words, but the moves and haircuts.
Dare I ask, is this actually a cool video in India, or is it satire or a piss-take? Surely the latter?
Ger, the video in itself is the real thing. An honest-to-goodness music video from India. The “value added” part is what makes it so funny. An English speaking dude (I assume an American, but I could be wrong) added the lyrics according to “how they sound.” It’s amusing that once you start reading the words the singers indeed seem to be saying those words in English. Now I’m curious as to what the real song lyrics say in Hindi (or Bengali? or another language?). And I also wonder whether the “transcriber” has done the same with any Russian videos…
“Boom boom boom(?)
Better get a higher fence from Home Depot”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EHWujXubNM&feature=related
Glad to see that Irishman has learned a new word (Boom). Who said this exchange was useless?
And oh, by the way, people who insinuate about their opponents personal lives, to buttress a losing argument, are the lowest kind of pond scam life and the only answer they really deserve is a fist in the face, hard (Boom).
”And oh, by the way, people who insinuate about their opponents personal lives, to buttress a losing argument, are the lowest kind of pond scam life and the only answer they really deserve is a fist in the face, hard (Boom).”
As are people who treat others like retards for using the word ‘dyev’
Boom, boom!
Running out of ideas, Candide? No Plan ‘B’?
You werent winning any argument, you knob-end. You were being a first class asshole and I responded appropriately. If you dont like being shot at, then dont fire on anyone. And apart from anything else, you threw the ’strangers jumping over my fence’ thing out there. It begged to be ripped at, much less so than using ‘dyev’ once. And no-one actually insinuated anything about your personal life.
What a total wanker.
And gimme a break with the fist bullshit. You’re starting to sound like Mike Averko, throwing transatlantic shapes:-)
“Boom boom boom(?)
Better get a higher fence from Home Depot”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EHWujXubNM&feature=related”
The reason I thought of it is that it did actually happen to a guy from our village, an electrician. A number of building contractors I had the pleasure of preparing mortar for as a student confirmed it:-) (so it must be true?)
Anyway the legend goes he came home from work an hour early and literally saw a guy pulling up his pants and jumping out over the back wall. In fairness the wife did and does ‘have form’ and its actually quite sad. Stuff like that is common in Ireland. Well, not the wall jumping bit, but anyway…
Chris, so we were neighbors! We lived about a ten minutes walk from the Takoma metro station and about a seven minute walk from Takoma Park’s tiny downtown area (farmers market, Mark’s Kitchen, etc).
Candide, you should move to Takoma Park. It’s the real America. During the last two presidential elections in the Takoma Park ward were I lived (Ward 1) Bush came in THIRD both times–in the single digits, I believe.
Kolya, were you there in 1999-2000? If so, we really were neighbors.
I lived in College Park too.
Technically, I didn’t live in TP — I worked for a small (really small) law firm located about 5-6 blocks from the metro.
“Kolya, were you there in 1999-2000?”
Chris, I lived on Valley View Avenue–a tiny curvy street between Willow and Maple with only about 12 houses. The metro, downtown TP, food coop, library, and municipal building were all a short walk away.
Was the law firm in the MD side? Did you know George LaRoche?
I’m pretty sure it was on the DC side, though my memory is fuzzy. It was a very small (read: 2 lawyers) intellectual property law firm. I wrote patent applications. It was a grad school gig. I never heard of this LaRoche guy.
Hey, I googled around and found the firm: http://www.aplegal.com/
Looks like Steve and Mike have gotten a lot bigger!
Well, I don’t know them, Chris. I mentioned George LaRoche because he was good friend and a Valley View neighbor (three houses down from me). He was an all around great guy, excellent woodworker and carpenter, who made a living as a civil rights lawyer. He practiced from his home. I thought there was a small chance it was him you worked for. Five years ago George died of cancer in his own home. Sadly, only two months ago, Mark Flory, a friend and neighbor of both George and I, also died of cancer. When we lived in TP, Mark lived on Valley View three houses up from us. Mark was fifty. George and Mark, two genuine good guys with a great sense of humor, no vices or bad habits, killed by cancer at their prime.
In any event, they enjoyed a good laugh and occasionally we would send each other humorous stuff.
“During the last two presidential elections in the Takoma Park ward were I lived (Ward 1) Bush came in THIRD both times–in the single digits, I believe.”
Behind who?
In 2000 behind Gore and Nader and in 2004 behind Kerry and Nader. Gore and Kerry got the overwhelming number of votes. Nader and Bush didn’t get much.
And as long we are talking gibberish,
‘Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
(from Jabberwocky)
“borogoves”
YES! I have found my term for Irishwomen! Eureka!
”“borogoves”
YES! I have found my term for Irishwomen! Eureka!”
Bollocks to that:-) No, treble bollocks. We have the best women in the world here! Thats it. No Bloomsday for you. I’m telling the Dubliners what you’ve said. And no coddle either!
”What need you, being come to sense,
But fumble in a greasy till
And add halfpence to the pence
And prayer to shivering prayer, until
You have dried the marrow from the bone”?
Yeats, September 1913
It is a little-known fact of literacy history that Joyce originally titled a short story in Dubliners “The Borogove.” It was about a young Dublin lass, sort of like Bernice Bobs Her Hair but with potatoes.
It’s true. I’m not making this up.
”It is a little-known fact of literacy history that Joyce originally titled a short story in Dubliners “The Borogove.” It was about a young Dublin lass, sort of like Bernice Bobs Her Hair but with potatoes.
It’s true. I’m not making this up.”
Sorry Chris, I’m going to have to refer this matter, which is now beyond serious, to an Roinn Gnothi Earachta na hEireann for consideration. Mentioning potatoes in such a demeaning manner, the very lifeblood of our great nation, is a new low.
Arent you half German? Any issues with hairy armpits/moustaches/massive arses on the women, or are those just stereotypes?
Ahem. You are refering to North German women. Those in the south are far more fetching.
”Ahem. You are refering to North German women. Those in the south are far more fetching.”
In fairness what I said above was wrong – what few German ladies I knew had none of those traits. But whats the story – are the Northern women actually like that or is it just shite?
I’ve heard the women of Munich are a sight to behold, rivalling even Moskva, which is a serious claim to be making. I nearly ended up in Munich earlier this year with a company up the country, but at the last minute I got a job at home and took it. Several people have asked me if I needed my head examined for that decision but home is home.
Speaking of potatoes me and my best mate both have big gardens and are seriously thinking of growing some! Ireland is in deep economic trouble, lots of people are facing the dole and prices going through the roof. It wouldnt be an exaggeration for me to say that if I went to Moscow I’d be an economic migrant. Reminds me of years ago, 1987, my sister went to NY for a month to visit relatives. We were putting her on the plane at Shannon and the airport was full of balling parents saying long goodbyes to migrant kids. I hope those days arent back. Jobs lost everywhere, factories closing, full dole office. Celtic Tiger totally dead.
That’s really depressing.
About the economy, I mean.
Well, people in SW Germany have a different genetic makeup, given that the area is right by France and all.
OK, I know I’ve mentioned this before, but I’m watching old episodes of Bottom on youtube, and holy crap the Rik Mayall character really reminds me of Averko. It’s uncanny.
”That’s really depressing. About the economy, I mean.”
Yeah, Ireland is toast. The old days are coming back I fear. And everyone is up to their neck in debt to boot, all buying shit none of us needed. TV full of bullshit shows about holidays, restaurants/chefs, rich lists and property development. It had to end in tears. For example you’d never see a program on tv about Joyce or Beckett or Flann O’Brien, or only very rarely, yet all this other shite fills our screens here. I think you’d be disappointed to come here and find pride in our literature only in pockets like universities.
Sometimes I think everyone should have roughly the same things and no-one should be super-wealthy. Does that make me a Communist? I’ve just never had any interest in money or cars or anything like that and always wondered at people’s desire for them. Drives my family mad, always has, especially my capitalist brother.
”Well, people in SW Germany have a different genetic makeup, given that the area is right by France and all.”
The French have quality women it has to be said. Audrey Tatou – enough said. Then again, what about Heidi Klum, Claudia Schiffer etc?
”OK, I know I’ve mentioned this before, but I’m watching old episodes of Bottom on youtube, and holy crap the Rik Mayall character really reminds me of Averko. It’s uncanny.”
He is very like him – gosh I havent seen Bottom for a long time, but he reminds me especially of the mad prophets in Life of Brian! What still amazes me though is that inspite of everything that is said to him, everywhere, not just by us here -he never changes. He says ‘no-one puts a dent in me’ – and I believe him now. Its just breathtaking that in the face of so much criticism he motors on and changes nothing. I really find that incredible.
Averko plays chess: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hA0WjUTR2c
Who cares if you’re a communist or not? It’s a philosophical/ethical position, not a moral failing.
”Averko plays chess: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hA0WjUTR2c”
Yup. Thats him alright. Bottom is still hilarious years later:-) Its just a pity my internet connection is so slow.
”Who cares if you’re a communist or not? It’s a philosophical/ethical position, not a moral failing.’
I’m starting to think I am one. Watching the economy go shite here, and so many people in massive debt and going to lose their homes, one wonders is there a better way than boom-bust-boom-bust, whilst huge parts of the population are broke all the time anyway…I know that the more you put in the more you get out, but people in poor areas of Ireland really have little or no way out from day one.
And I love the uniforms and ‘CCCP’ written on the football jerseys. Its just a million times cooler than the radioactive eagle.
Actually my impression is that life in the late USSR was pretty sweet if you didn’t mind having shitty consumer goods, especially if you didn’t like to work.
”Actually my impression is that life in the late USSR was pretty sweet if you didn’t mind having shitty consumer goods, especially if you didn’t like to work. ”
I have yet to actually meet someone who complained about life in the Soviet Union. ‘Happy’ ‘innocent’ ‘chilled out’ and ‘nothing to worry about’ are things I’ve heard people say about it.One wonders would the USSR have survived if there had been an Arbat Prestizh shop in every city at the time:-)
And they produced brilliant technical footballers and had a championship and league competition up there with the best of them that was ferociously competitive. The Euro 2008 team are a pale shadow of those guys.
“I have yet to actually meet someone who complained about life in the Soviet Union.”
I have, but they have all been people who never actually lived in it as adults. Go figure.
”I have, but they have all been people who never actually lived in it as adults. Go figure.”
Its like people in their twenties here complaining about old Ireland when they never lived in it. The country was poor, but life wasnt that bad – we just never had any money. But we had football on tv and had the likes of the USSR, Brazil, Italy and Argentina thrilling us at Mexico ‘86 and Euro 88!
As a point of interest, what were the main reasons people took to the streets in the USSR in 1991? I mean in the Russian SSR anyway?
“As a point of interest, what were the main reasons people took to the streets in the USSR in 1991?”
Good question. I dunno. I don’t have a clue what public opinion was at that time.
I am guessing that it was shortages of food, seemingly there had been some for a while. If that was the case, what would have happened if there were no food shortages? Would the USSR or Russia anyway still be a Communist country?
Who knows? It’s my understanding that the shortages really increased under Gorbachev and by the time 1989 rolled around most people were opposed to Perestroika. but I really don’t know.
Just fell into this blog via links about the eXile’s demise (and now-subsequent rebirth in Panama). So, now this yankee-come-lately (uh, me) feels like chiming in on this talk of capitalist and communist.
Those who call themselves either “capitalist” or “communist” always label the other as the supreme evil, responsible for most if not all mass suffering in the world. Funny thing is, each side can put up legitimate arguments to make the case against the other. Namely, the deaths of millions of people “in the name of” or “because of policies guided by” said villainous philosophy. They both are rife with potential to cause great misery – from here the question of who’s worse than the other becomes a matter of who’s being oppressed, and by how great a magnitude.
Seems to me that the main argument for a communist regime’s existence is economic equality (i.e. everybody’s a peasant except elite party leadership). Being the sole guiding principle, it is in itself cause sufficient to justify killing/imprisoning anyone within the country’s borders who begs to differ. In contrast, a capitalist regime will usually be a little kinder to those within it’s own borders, choosing instead to export the misery and exploitation to third-world countries – so as to sustain the consumerist lifestyle enjoyed by the mindless bourgeois sheep of the capitalist state. No matter what the intended consequence of either system, it seems in practice, that someone’s likely to get screwed either way. Coming from the middle class in a wealthy economy, my political concerns tend to be more about my personal freedom and lifestyle maintenance rather than where my next meal comes from, so I’m not as likely to feel where the communists’ message. That is, unless I were to feel sufficiently guilty about my luxuriant lifestyle coming at the expense of others elsewhere in the world. Conversely, were I from a place where the majority is impoverished (undoubtedly because of evil imperial capitalist policies from abroad), personal freedom wouldn’t mean squat to me. Therefore if some dude in fatigues says he’s going to feed me under the guiding principles of Simon Bolivar (or Mao Zedong or whoever), me and my fellow filthy impoverished masses are gonna be all about it. Never mind the fact that he and his cronies will live like gods while most of the population lives at subsistence-level, at least I don’t have to suffer the indignities of that upper-middle class asshole up the street who used to have a house that wasn’t made of aluminum siding. Now he’s in a shanty-town like the rest of us. Or dead.
No matter the *stated* idealogical slant of a regime, you can bet that it will be run by an ownership class that will do whatever it deems necessary retain its status (such as stabbing fellow-turned-rival oligarchs in the back).
At least in the age of mass media, you can sort of count on some semblance of “freedom”, “justice”, or “accountability” existing – at least until all world media is owned by Disney*. I should also qualify that this is true only in places where there is an educated middle class that has something to do besides scratch for food.
I get the feeling that the least oppressive regimes in the world today employ guiding principles from both left and right ends of the spectrum and also have a somewhat culturally (not necessarily racially) homogenous population. Would that be democratic socialism, or would that be too charitable a characterization?
*apologies for the arrogant assumption that an American corporation will be the one to gobble up the world’s media. Who’s to say it won’t be Vivendi? Also, my apologies for intruding on this blog. This has ventured off-topic, and gotten highly self-indulgent in the process. Of course, if I were really sorry, I wouldn’t be posting this, now, would I?
eesh. that was a good lot of rabble. sorry bout that.
no problem at all
A propos of nothing — Ivanov, can you tell me why the USSR never made any horror movies? I’m guessing they would have been considered insufficiently wholesome. But the vampire legend just begs for a Marxist interpretation.
Yeah the eXile’s closing is a pretty shady thing. I don’t think they deserve to get closed no matter what they write about but I think it’s weird that investors pull their support so quickly after a what should be routine check on Lemonov. If you sponsor a paper where Lemonov writes, you should be prepared to get hassled!
Here’s my blog on Russia. I’m doing a journalism project in my home city of St. Petersburg thie summer. Enjoy!
http://www.newspblife.blogspot.com
“If you sponsor a paper where Lemonov writes, you should be prepared to get hassled!”
He’s in Rolling Stone.
But Rolling Stone probably has more stable financial backing and won’t fold at the first hint of an audit.
Their new tag line is, “Banned in Russia.” I think maybe they could be banned in Russia under the extremism laws, but it seems they’re not so much “banned” as “put out of business by a series of unfortunate events, some of which were of the ‘already in serious debt’ variety.” Which is not to say someone in the government didn’t light a match. Just that they were pretty thoroughly soaked in gasoline to begin with. Is there any actual evidence that they are *banned*? I know they were fined, but Mark posted pics of himself paying the fine. lol. Is the very existence of the paper illegal, or is it just financially untenable?
I feel bad, because I think I would be every bit as freaked out and pissed off if I were in their position (though perhaps less surprised). But not having enough money for something is not the same as being banned, which normally implies some official decree. Or maybe it is the same, and I’ve been banned from owning a Mercedes. Gah!
Thanks for the link to your blog, Maya.
“A propos of nothing — Ivanov, can you tell me why the USSR never made any horror movies?”
When you have соцреализм – why the heck you need horror movies!
“Or maybe it is the same, and I’ve been banned from owning a Mercedes.”
I totally agree! Where is my freedom to drive Porshe 911?
Some hippy wrote:
“”But Rolling Stone probably has more stable financial backing and won’t fold at the first hint of an audit.”
Yeah, but they’re also somewhat more, well, reputable.
They had a cool interview with my man Johnny Lydon a couple of months ago.
Personally, I suspect that whoever phoned the inspectorate people in the first place was probably offended not by Limonov but by the racist and misogynist language.
“When you have соцреализм – why the heck you need horror movies!”
Sotsrealism worked well in war movies. I have a theory about this I’m not going to get into here.
I mean real sotsrealizm
But if we are talking about art – this is also true. It’s hard to imagine “В бой идут одни старики” and comics made in same place in same time….
I kind of get the idea that you have an implicit definition of SotsRealizm as being bad, so if it’s good, it’s automatically not SR.
While we’re at it, I hear all the time how the USSR supposedly banned jazz music. However, on the soundtracks to Soviet movies I hear something that sounds suspiciously identical to jazz, Igor Buttman has been around for decades (I think), and Glenn Miller toured the USSR back in the 50s. What’s going on here?
“But if we are talking about art – this is also true. It’s hard to imagine “В бой идут одни старики” and comics made in same place in same time….”
There was lots of Soviet science fiction…
Where “there”?
“There” in the USSR. Strugatsky Brothers and all that. Lem (OK he was a Pole).
Strugatsky Brothers and all that
And all what else?
Umm, do you want me to list every Soviet science-fiction novel and/or story ever written?
Chris, I don’t think they banned “jazz music” per se – a rather broad category – but rather there were, as in all other art forms, officially approved practitioners and sub-genres and those which were not allowed by official-dom (e.g., although I’m not an expert on the stratification of the jazzosphere, I think a conventional “big band” style was officially accepted but anything avant-garde or “modern,” or at times, simply anything “foreign,” was not). As with other art forms, these categories changed over time – there was not one policy during the entirety of the Soviet period.
After all, the Soviet state didn’t ban “oil painting” either, but it certainly did control who got into the Union of Artists and who had access to exhibition space and was able to make a living as a painter, and that control was exercised with various degrees of harshness during different periods. So it was with musicians as well.
We might ask ourselves to what extent this resembles the situation faced by unconventional artists in “the West” – perhaps the market and the need to find a paying job provides some degree of “censorship.” Certainly unconventional musicians get kicked out of conservatories and are not welcomed into conventional professional associations all over the world. In the USSR, however, the denial of such professional affiliations meant that you were essentially denied an “official identity” as an artist – no ability to perform in public, no ability to have your recordings produced, to be “discovered,” etc.
Even a titan like Vysotsky was troubled by this state of affairs, by his “unofficial” position in the world of Soviet music. If I’m not mistaken, his official releases during his lifetime were limited to songs for movie soundtracks (though even in this context his work was tightly controlled) and a musical version of “Alice in Wonderland.” Not that this prevented people from hearing his music through underground dubs.
There’s a recent book out by a family friend who describes the contemporary music scene in Leningrad in the late Soviet era (you can read a review of it here), it should be available in Moscow if you’re interested.
It also seems that one should separate the 1980s (the era, for example, when Butman came of age – and emigrated to the US) from earlier decades when the state was able and willing to exercise more restrictions. A tiny section of Ru.Wikipedia on Soviet music describes this in brief, and the entry on “jazz” describes it in greater detail:
Отношение советских властей к джазу было неоднозначным: отечественных джаз-исполнителей, как правило, не запрещали, но была распространена жёсткая критика джаза как такового, в контексте критики западной культуры в целом. В конце 40-х гг. во время борьбы с космополитизмом в СССР джаз переживал особо сложный период, когда коллективы, исполняющие «западную» музыку, подвергались гонениям. С началом «оттепели» репрессии в отношении музыкантов были прекращены, но критика продолжилась. [citations omitted]
There was a book by an American – regarded as definitive at the time, I think, but I’m not sure how it’s aged (though I think revised editions have been published), especially given that its author has done some credibility-eroding things in the post-Soviet era – that came out about the Soviet jazz world in the 1980s.
Another touchstone of the Soviet image of jazz can probably be found in the 1983 movie “My iz Dzhaza,” although I’ve never seen more than parts of it.
In any event, I am sure that the stories about budding jazz musicians only having access to certain recordings through the VOA are true, simply because the musicians themselves tell these stories and they have no reason to lie about it. It’s another matter, of course, that everyone always wants to romanticize their youth and reminisce about being engaged in a “banned” art form, which may explain why one hears such stories so frequently. But presumably you are realistic enough to understand that the USSR was not exactly a zone of cultural and artistic freedom.
Incidentally, the tours of American jazz artists were mostly (if not entirely) sponsored by US public diplomacy initiatives and were allowed periodically as the bilateral relationship thawed as part of larger “cultural exchange” programs – so viewing them as evidence of Soviet “openness” seems a bit off to me, unless you have a very low bar for “openness.”
Thank you Lyndon!
It is my understanding that little was actually banned (in the late USSR, anyway). But the state would not import it, and the state was the only official importer, so…
“Umm, do you want me to list every Soviet science-fiction novel and/or story ever written?”
Don’t be such a slacker, the task is a very simple one. There are about a hundred titles, by handful of authors.
Soviet artistic output was extremely meager. Soviet cinema produced about 10-20 movies a year, when Hollywood produced about 600. The same ratio applies to all other artistic output from Soviet times.
“It is my understanding that little was actually banned…”
Harrumph!
Lyndon, come to think of it, I suppose in a sense I am looking for signs of Soviet openness, but probably not in the way you would expect. I’m not that much older than you, but I am sufficiently different for it to make a difference in this context. When Gorbachev came to power, I was 14, whereas you were (I think) 7. So you missed out on most of the craziness of the anti-Soviet propaganda, according to which, for instance, the Soviets had invaded Afghanistan in order to further advance into the Middle East, seizing the Saudi oil fields to hold the Free World ransom (seriously). Accordingly, I am always interested in anything that contradicts my childhood-inculcated image of the USSR as a Land of Foulest Evil, the population of which was composed of 50% pro-Western dissidents and 50% diabolic KGB operatives.
“There are about a hundred titles, by handful of authors.”
Name them.
“Soviet cinema produced about 10-20 movies a year, when Hollywood produced about 600.”
Candid, it’s not a fair play. Please deduct James Bond, Spider Man and other such “art”…
…O! Almost forgot – “Enemy at the gates”…
BTW do you know that CCCP at one time was producing more agricultural tractors than US? But ….
PS. Question for everyone! Who saw “Операция Ы” movie? It’s everything – horror, action, science fiction, western and Bolshoy Theater of course.
It is my understanding that little was actually banned (in the late USSR, anyway).
Considering that the state had discretion to identify just about anything as “anti-Soviet” and that possession of such materials (or being accused of their possession) could create problems for people’s career advancement (yes, even in the mid-1980s) and in extreme cases physical freedom, I think this depends on your definition of “banned.” Considering that the state had discretion to enforce vague laws about anti-Soviet activities or materials (whether they enforced them in all cases or not) and that the average citizen had absolutely no ability to defend himself legally against such charges, one might say that just about any foreign printed matter or video or audio media was at risk of being banned.
For example, I know the gentleman who translated the first edition of Jefferson’s collected writings to be published in the USSR, and – though you may find this hard to believe – it seemed like quite a big deal when the book was published in 1990.
Lyndon, come to think of it, I suppose in a sense I am looking for signs of Soviet openness, but probably not in the way you would expect. I’m not that much older than you, but I am sufficiently different for it to make a difference in this context. When Gorbachev came to power, I was 14, whereas you were (I think) 7.
I was born in May of ‘76, which I think would have made me about to turn 9 when Gorby came into power, and I was living in Leningrad at the time. So yes, our perspectives are substantially different, given that I was exposed for several years to the full array of anti-American propaganda being employed in the USSR at the time – and also to the friendliness and curiosity of just about every single “unofficial” Russian I encountered at school or in our apartment building. The people were quite open, it was the government which feared that openness (perhaps less so under Gorby, but inertia is a powerful thing).
Since I went back to the US for the summers, I can affirm that official negative propaganda of “the other” was far more pervasive in the USSR and had no unofficial counter-propaganda (I’m referring to the sorts of peace, friendship and engagement movements which were present in the US in the mid-1980s) – on the other hand, Soviet propaganda was also not believed by much of the population, whereas in the US people probably took what the government had to say a bit more seriously (perhaps because they elected that government and because, say what you will about the US media, they generally don’t let the government lie with impunity (with some exceptions I’m sure we could all think of)).
So you missed out on most of the craziness of the anti-Soviet propaganda, according to which, for instance, the Soviets had invaded Afghanistan in order to further advance into the Middle East, seizing the Saudi oil fields to hold the Free World ransom (seriously).
No, I didn’t miss out on it, and it was probably even crazier way back in the 1950s. And of course within the US government and to a lesser extent within US society, people who supported engagement and openness toward the USSR were sometimes regarded with suspicion, so of course I recognize that Americans did not approach the Cold War rationally. Some of my school friends asked me if I had become a “commie” when we moved back to DC in 1987. Whatever.
However ridiculous some of the more extreme strains of American propaganda may have been (and it’s important to point out that those sorts of statements tended not to emanate from official government sources), I can assure you that they were outdone by Soviet propaganda vilifying the West and the US in particular. I’m sure you’ve seen some of the posters.
Also, as I mentioned before, a rather important distinction is that citizens in the US were free to undertake friendly initiatives (things like this) toward the USSR, which was not really the case in the Soviet environment (where any interaction with foreigners was tightly controlled by officials).
By the way, why do you think the Soviets invaded Afghanistan? To protect a brotherly socialist government? To secure their southern border? Or were they ahead of the curve in fighting Islamic militants? (n.b., this book appears to be an interesting account at first glance but may not be quite objective)
Accordingly, I am always interested in anything that contradicts my childhood-inculcated image of the USSR as a Land of Foulest Evil, the population of which was composed of 50% pro-Western dissidents and 50% diabolic KGB operatives.
Well, of course it wasn’t quite like that
Probably more like 5% of each and a vast group in the middle, most of whom during the 1980s were as fascinated by the West as we all might be today if we received visitors from another planet. On the other hand, then as now, that 50-50 ratio might represent the breakdown of people with whom foreign journalists interacted 
And there was a lot that was sinister but easily forgotten about the Soviet Union in the 1980s – aside from the crazy official suspicion of foreigners and anyone who associated with them, the practice of denying people exit visas comes to mind. The latter is easily forgotten within Russia today because the refuseniks were all eventually able to leave and so aren’t around to talk about it any more.
I could go on and on with personal observations about queues for anything other than food staples (and at times even for those) and about running to the department store (DLT) as soon as we heard they had caps (for cap guns), because we knew they would sell out that day, and the general inconveniences of Soviet life (which of course also had its unique charms and pleasures, such as a feeling of total safety from street crime), but I think I’m already too far off-topic (plus I think I’ve rambled about this stuff in the past in the comments section here) – and truth be told my family enjoyed a rather charmed existence there, since we had a large apartment (happily not in a diplomats-only building, although we did have a ment sitting in a booth in the courtyard watching our bedroom windows for a while; actually, our former apartment is now occupied by the Ukrainian consulate), the ability to shop at the Beriozka, and groceries delivered from Helsinki.
Anyway, overall, you’re right, I have a rather different perspective on those years which probably leads me to draw different conclusions about the quality and sustainability of the USSR as it existed in the mid-’80s; and I don’t really have a good firsthand memory of America’s early-’80s approach to the USSR, which I think is the time period to which you were referring.
Damn formatting tags. Sean, you have to get a “preview” feature on here.
For those who want to find out what was banned and what was filmed in CCCP (and show to friends and girlfriends in English, german, french etc.) – http://www.ruscico.com/
“Damn formatting tags. Sean, you have to get a “preview” feature on here.”
Totally agree.
PS. Question for everyone! Who saw “Операция Ы” movie? It’s everything – horror, action, science fiction, western and Bolshoy Theater of course.
Don’t forget light political commentary (”<a href=”Кто хочет сегодня поработать?!”Кто хочет сегодня поработать?!”). I tend to agree that Soviet cinema made up for its lack of quantity with quality, and the fact that commentary had to be smuggled into movies means that points had to be made (if at all, and I’m talking about a small portion of films here, of course) in ways much subtler than your typical Hollywood movie about an evil big corporation that just beats you over the head with its politics.
Но Бонда не трошь! Ранние выпуски – классика.
“By the way, why do you think the Soviets invaded Afghanistan? To protect a brotherly socialist government? To secure their southern border? Or were they ahead of the curve in fighting Islamic militants?”
I don’t really have much in the way of insider knowledge about this event to say the least.
However the version of events I have been told that makes most sense is that the Soviet military presence in Afghanistan mostly had to do with the Iranian Islamic Revolution and the fear that an Islamist Afghanistan could have destablizing effects on Soviet Central Asia.
IIRC most American agitprop was not really (at least directly, though I’m under the impression that there was some under the table government involvement) was not really government but rather came out of Hollywood and various think-tanks/lobby groups. Which is obviously a big difference from in the USSR — you don’t need to point it out.
“In the USSR, however, the denial of such professional affiliations meant that you were essentially denied an “official identity” as an artist – no ability to perform in public, no ability to have your recordings produced, to be “discovered,” etc.”
I used to hang out with a group of Muscovite artists (mostly in their 40s and 50s) and they all had fond memories of the USSR “art scene,” in which they would “exhibit” in their apartments. On the one hand, you couldn’t get official sponsorship or exhibition space; on the other, if all you cared about was producing art for its own sake, the Soviet system was very amenable for a bohemian existence in which you could devote as much time to painting etc. as you wanted (in your off hours from the boiler room job).
Right, we knew a few of the “unofficial” artists in SPB during the years we were there (and have stayed in touch with some of them), and they certainly had their own tusovka. They also did have, starting in the early 1980s, limited opportunities to be exhibited (this essay looks like a pretty good account of the era). Some of them have done quite well in the post-Soviet years, although I’ve certainly heard nostalgic tales of the boiler attendant job.
Although I could be wrong, I think any artist who is really serious about his/her work wants to share it with others (i.e., have it exhibited publicly), interact with artists from other cultures, and probably would prefer to have the chance to make a living doing what they love. Ultimately, a number of the people in the underground art world left the country, which in some cases was unfortunate for them as individuals and in all cases (I would argue) was unfortunate for the country.
…the Soviet system was very amenable for a bohemian existence…
Perhaps, as long as you were able to find one of those do-nothing jobs (in SPB the most coveted ones were as behind-the-scenes workers at the Hermitage) and didn’t try to stage large public exhibitions (one of which was rather famously bulldozed in the 1970s) or interact with foreigners. And it’s true that Soviet realities did provide the “unofficials” with pretty awesome fodder for their art, and in fact “nonconformist” art sort of died as a genre once there was nothing to “non-conform” to.
Thanks, Lyndon, for good observation.
But….
1. Бонд – сакс!
2. “I can assure you that they were outdone by Soviet propaganda vilifying the West and the US in particular. I’m sure you’ve seen some of the posters.”
As a person with better memory of that time I would say “Exactly! This is the trick!”
What did Soviet people think when saw these “official” posters and saw “official” horror stories on TV? Yes, right – most of normal people thought “Bullshit”. Who trusts the government? And it was mostly BS. This doesn’t mean that we knew what exactly was going on “za bugrom”. But we’ve heard a lot about. How do you think Medvedev knew about Deep Purple?
What did American people think when they saw films, news, comics, posters from “free press” and “free artists”? Yes, right – most of them thought “Poor russkie. They have to dig frozen stones for twelve hours a day then play balalaika and watch Komrad General Secretary on TV”. And they had no reason not to believe – it was not propaganda. Not at all. Pure freedom of speech (and private one).
When I “encountered” West for the first time I was really surprised how much, big and good everything were over there. I knew about it – but didn’t realize the scale of it until I saw it by myself (US cars sucks anyway against Japs. Except Fleetwood Brougham!)
When I met Americans who first time met Soviets/came to CCCP – it was kind of surprise. Educated people, with free access to every book, movie etc. – but their questions and comments about us was so silly and very often sounds like made by people with brain damage. They were really surprised with lack of balalaikas around
)))
PS. So – who saw “Операция Ы”?
“Although I could be wrong, I think any artist who is really serious about his/her work wants to share it with others (i.e., have it exhibited publicly), interact with artists from other cultures, and probably would prefer to have the chance to make a living doing what they love.”
Lyndon, you’re in defiance of the whole romantic Bohemian ideal from Baudelaire to Bukowski!
By the way Lyndon, Primakov discusses the Afghanistan war in his recent book on Middle East politics, the name of which is something like Blizhnii Vostok: Na stsene i za zanaves. I only skimmed the book about a year ago
(which has a very interesting account of his last meeting with Saddam), but IIRC he talks about how Afghanistan, unable to get sufficient aid from Moscow, began to turn toward Teheran (this is still during the Shah). Teheran would only do so on the condition that Afghanistan adopt an anti-Soviet policy. Then this was all further complicated by the actions of the Afghan Communists and the Iranian Revolution.
Please keep in my mind that I only skimmed the relevant section and don’t really recollect it all that well.
As no one seems to saw “Операция Ы” – I see no point to talk about Russian affairs. What do people know about Russia if they haven’t seen “Ы”?
And I’ve been wasting my time with them! OMFG!…
I have seen Операция Ы, and I have pictures to prove it, which I am not going to show you. Are you calling me a liar?
(This Averko debating technique is brilliant!)
BTW, it’s my understanding that Sean Guillory, David Johnson, Ira Strauss and (until recently) Peter Lavelle haven’t seen Ы. As some others have proven, proficiency in Ы doesn’t make them expert on any number of fact based topics related to the country in question.
Pardon the misspell.
Chris, thanks, I’ll try to pick that up the next time I’m in Moscow. Politicans’ memoirs, though… well, you know they like to rewrite history. Although that versiia does make some sense.
Incidentally, perhaps my favorite bit of political graffiti in Moscow, which was faded even when I first saw it in 2001 and probably related to the 1999-2000 electoral campaign, read “Primakov – Moskva ne Irak!”
You’re right about the bohemian ideal, of course, although one wonders how Baudelaire and Bukowski would have fared in the USSR.
ivanov, I hope it was clear from my comment above that I’ve seen Операция Ы – a number of times, actually, since it’s one of the movies they show (or perhaps they’ve moved on in recent years) on certain trains in Russia (e.g., SPB-Moscow, Moscow-Kaluga). But I have no photographic evidence – damn!
“You’re right about the bohemian ideal, of course, although one wonders how Baudelaire and Bukowski would have fared in the USSR.”
Bukowski was an alcoholic. He would have done great.
Seriously, my understanding of Bohemian Soviet life is largely determined by Limonov’s autobiographical novels about being a young man in Kharkov (which are actually not at all bad). He casually mentions reading a book by Freud in a bookstore in one of them, which is another of those things that makes me think “hmmm…”, since I always thought Freud was banned.
“But I have no photographic evidence – damn!”
Okey, okey… I trust you
But let’s check anyway.
“Агласите вессписк пжалста” – from what part of Ы?
Ummm, isn’t that the part where they are handing out the “voluntary” work assignments?
Anyway, I’m looking at a photo of me watching “Ы” right now. Anyone who says I haven’t seen it is a trolling troll, cheerleading for the existing inadequacies and hypocritically propping the not-so-Shurik-friendlies
Ah, even in his absence he is with us…
Lyndon Allin’s applied double standards. Note how he hypocritically props the not so Shurik friendlies and doesnt critique Vladimir Socor. This was shown by my excellent skills in the exchange with Ethan Burger.
Then there’s the Iceland friendly troll ivanov, who along with Chris Doss is a flack for Peter Lavelle and the flaws in the Eng Lang mASS media.
Mr. A! ASSASSIN!!!!
mwahahahahaha!!
Litvinenko was too Russia unfriendly, and was a flack for BAB.
Am hiding out here at my Momz, so no one can find me, with Alexandra and Andrew Waller!
C’mon Ger. The real Averko left the building weeks ago. Why resurrect a faux version of his annoying soul?
”C’mon Ger. The real Averko left the building weeks ago. Why resurrect a faux version of his annoying soul?”
Doh! Caught again!:-)