“Avoiding this heap of memes”

not impressed
at all

I’m with ivanov – same old russophobia with a post-modern, hipster face.

When did Russophobia become an ‘old’ phenomenon? I think it’s much younger than Islamophobia, which was coined sometime after 9.11.2001.

When mockery and hatred of all things Islamic started reaching insane levels, some liberal intellectuals took it upon themselves to defend the best of Islamic heritage and leveled a countercharge against the most unhinged critics of Islam, branding them Islamophobes.

Assorted Putin-lovers saw this and decided, “Hey, neat, we can do it too!” So they started calling Russophobes anyone they didn’t like. Now Idov became a Russophobe for who knows what obscure offense.

Personally, I know exactly one person I could call a real Russophobe and I still think she’s got to be a plant.

Candide, you’re an assorted-Putin-lover-ophobe!

Seriously, I hate the word “Russophobia,” but in my mind it is connected with a set of essentialist preconceptions and recycled stereotypes about Russia. Analogously, somebody who couched discussion of German foreign policy in Eastern Europe in terms of “the historic German question for Lebensraum” would be a Germanophobe (and they do exist)

I have a 1919 copy of the US philosopher Josiah Royce’s Lectures on the Philosophy of Idealism (originally given in I think 1883). The preface spends much justifying why we should read these German philosophers like Kant, since as everybody knows the Huns exclusively started the war because they are evil Huns. It’s sort of like that.

Hey, Jesse, you may not like him but what exactly was Russophobic about what Idov said in the clip? In my view, nothing. I would like to know why you so easily accused him of Russophobia.

Candide, the term Russophobia probably predated Igor Shafarevich, but he was the one (as far as I know) who popularized it. He wrote an essay titled “Russophobia” either in the late 1970s or early 1980s. From what I remember, he’s an anti-communist nationalist who detects Russophobia in all sorts of places. Although I don’t like the word because it’s all too often used as an easy excuse as well as to unfairly denigrate someone, there is no denying that some people can be, in all fairness, labeled as Russophobes.

Kolya,
I war referring to the opinions expressed in his article. In the interview he seems to be claiming that he’s rising above or moving beyond old prejudices and stereotypes. I don’t think he is. Rather, it’s the same old shtick with a young hipster spin:

“Economically booming, politically resurgent, today’s Russia is also culturally stagnant in the widest sense. Its only identifiable passion is to be taken seriously abroad.”

‘Only identifiable passion’? What about starting families (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23972762/) or building careers? These are things we take for granted but which Russians had to put on hold for more than a decade. What sorts of ‘identifiable passions’ does Idov consider worthy anyway? Creating Orange revolutions just for the sake of revolution? Idov’s post-materialist value-set just doesn’t fit in today’s Russia – and that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

All right, Jesse, you disagree with him. But does that make him a Russophobe? Isn’t that similar to accusing someone who criticizes Israel of being an anti-Semite?

Promoting and making light of anti-Russian bigotry should be seen as repugnant.

Regarding the Israel reference, many would be understandably offended if the USSR was perceived as something benefitting the Jews at the expense of others.

This is the bigoted legacy of the Captive Nations Committee and the anonymously bigoted crank, who is propped by some. Substitute Russian for Jew and such bigotry gets rationalized, as within the realm of acceptability.

This relates to the recent discussion elsewhere about “Russophobia” (a passively inaccurate term). It had been introduced in a not so perfect way. This was followed by some Russia unfriendly folks disingenuously suggesting an attempt to mute criticism of Russia.

Lost in all this are the great anti-Russian biases that have existed for quite some time.

Those not thinking much of Idov’s material should note who is promoting it.

Kolya,
If, in making a sweeping conclusion about the stagnation of Russia, Idov introduced at least some objective evidence – statistics, opinion polls, anything – to substantiate his point, then I would focus on the facts. But instead he chose a series of anecdotes that support his point.

He also drops assertions that just aren’t true – for example, he talks about how Duma members pursue their own business ‘in the absence of any real legislative work.’ Actually, this has been the most active Duma in Russian history and many major legislative projects have been passed. Anyone who has researched the legislative history of a Russian law knows that, even with the UR majority, it is often a painstaking process with hearings, proposed amendments, etc. But never mind that, we’ll just accept that the Duma is the subordinate rubber stamp based on a single picture of two female duma members.

“economically booming, politically resurgent, today’s Russia is also culturally stagnant in the widest sense.”

Yeah, what the hell is he talking about? What the hell does it mean to be culturally stagnant? Bad popsa?

“Igor Shafarevich”

Is a nutcase. Has he written anything lately?

Jesse, although one can point to a lot of activity on the part of the US Congress (and I apologize for the implicit comparison to the Duma, which is laughable), some people – including some published commentators – still talk a lot of smack, and not without justification, about how Members pursue their own interests as the US stagnates – are such people “Americaphobes”? Or are they just people who may not focus on the workings of the legislative process and are trying (successfully or not) to capture the bigger picture?

I totally agree with your points about the positives – people are confident enough to have children (though you act as though the government’s promotion of this is somehow _not_ connected with its passion to “be taken seriously abroad”); people are focused on and able to achieve success in their careers, which is a wonderful thing to see. Without a doubt, there are positives. But journalists don’t write about the planes that land safely, after all (that’s what Russia Today is for!), and is someone really a “Russophobe” because he criticizes the Duma or fails to take account of its level of activity?

I’m sure there is plenty of documented Duma legislative history for one to sink one’s teeth into, but you focus on the high volume of legislation passed and “proposed amendments” – since (as far as I know, though you may know better) much legislation is introduced by or on behalf of the executive, query how much of it is actually amended in a substantive way before being passed.

The Duma does a lot of posturing on foreign policy issues of interest to me, but – other than to create excellent quotations for people to cite when complaining about Russia’s aggressive approach to the “near abroad” – it doesn’t really accomplish much (not that the US Congress is exactly a font of intelligent approaches to foreign policy either). Indeed, in the absence of any opposition within the Duma, naturally the esteemed Deputies have to look for other enemies, foreign and domestic, to condemn and do rhetorical battle with. Perhaps they’ll be on to “saboteurs and wreckers” soon (oops, just kidding, that would probably be considered a “Russophobic cliche” in some circles), by which of course I mean NGOs.

You seem to focus on Idov’s mention of the Khorkina/Kabaeva photos, but it’s not as though one needed those photos to reach the same conclusion – he just used them as what they are: a good illustration for the joke which the Duma has become. Lots of Russians commenting on Kommersant’s website and at drugoi’s amazingly heavily trafficked blog expressed the same thoughts about those hilarious photos. One supposes they are not all “Russophobes.” I guess my point is that it’s kind of a loaded term to throw around just because someone writes an article critical about Russia.

Candide (and all may be interested), a search on AbeBooks shows there have been a couple of books about “Russophobia” going back a long way. I have no idea what’s in those books, though I’ve thought about buying the one on Britain if I can find it for a reasonable price. So it seems like the ura-patrioty (with the assistance of the blogger or kollektiv that you identified) have dusted off an old term which is perhaps a relic of the Great Game or somesuch.

By the way, the discussion of “Russophobia” to which I believe Mr. Averko is referring can be seen here this one (in the post and comments), for those of you who are not JRL subscribers.

Chris, I have no idea if Shafarevich is still writing. Yes, from what I had heard, he was a brilliant mathematician who became a crank. I never read his stuff. He was instrumental, though, in making “Russophobia” a more commonly used word.

Jesse, I know you didn’t like Idov’s article. You were very good in articulating why you didn’t. For the most part I did like it, but have no problems with the fact that you didn’t. However, just like I was bothered by Idov’s “gaydar” reference (after you made me aware of what it meant), I was bothered by you labeling Idov a Russophobe. Perhaps I’m being a pedant and such a label is not as loaded for you. For me, though, the word Russophobe belongs to the same category as the words anti-Semite, racist, homophobe, and so on.

This magazine/website http://www.readrussia.com/ of which Idov is the editor, doesn’t seem very russophobic to me. In fact, quite the opposite. I suppose his article on Black PR could be considered russophobic in the same way Steven Colbert is americaphobic, if one wanted to be obtuse.

Perhaps some effort should be made in defining what a Russophobe is, as it generates so much debate. For a critical observer of Russia, Putin’s administration has made bad policy choices (e.g., raising the threshold to get into the Duma, making governorships into appointed positions). To a Russophobe, these are indications are far more nefarious trends – Russia’s led by evil people, Russia will inevitably collapse, Russia is dead inside.

It’s one thing to say that Russia’s exports are heavily concentrated in oil & gas, they should diversify their economy to ensure long-term growth. It’s entirely different to say that Russia’s ‘oil-fueled’ prosperity has caused it to stagnate ‘in the widest sense’. Again, it’s one thing to say that by raising the threshold for Duma representation from 5% to 7%, Putin has hindered the development of a strong multiparty system. It’s another to refer to this as ‘corrupting older institutions.’

There’s a huge difference between arguing on the merits of various policies implemented under Putin, and making conclusory statements about how horrible they are. This is irrational. Finally, I guess in Idov’s narrative I detect a little fear of a Russia that is doing well and feels good about itself – perhaps this fear is what provokes the irrational response. And that – an irrational fear of Russia – is Russophobia.

Ehh, I should have read through all the comments on the other thread. My sincere apologies for covering old ground.

Jesse, you wrote:

“Perhaps some effort should be made in defining what a Russophobe is, as it generates so much debate.”

A good idea. As I wrote, for me Russophobe belongs in the same category of other highly negative words indicative of bigotry (e.g., antisemitism, racism), but I suspect that for you it has a more innocuous meaning. Am I right?

In your comment, though, your definition (if it was indeed one) seemed both vague and wide. You ended with:

“I guess in Idov’s narrative I detect a little fear of a Russia that is doing well and feels good about itself – perhaps this fear is what provokes the irrational response. And that – an irrational fear of Russia – is Russophobia.”

According to you, Russophobia is simply irrational fear of Russia. Is that correct?

And you accuse Idov of being a Russophobe because in his TNR piece you detected “a little fear of Russia that is doing well and feels good about itself.” I did not detect any such fear, but, frankly, if all it takes is for someone to “detect a little fear,” then that’s an awfully easy (and subjective) threshold to cross. It just about renders the term meaningless, in my opinion.

Lyndon, wow, Russophobia as a word does go way back. I don’t know whether it’s correct, but this is from Wikipedia in Russian:

“Впервые термин «Русофобия» был применён Фёдором Тютчевым в связи с появлением в Европе враждебности к России после подавления русскими войсками венгерской революции 1848 года в Австро-Венгрии, после чего Российская империя получила кличку “жандарм Европы”. Русофобии Тютчев противопоставлял панславизм.”

Kolya,
You’re right – I don’t see Russophobes in the same light as anti-semites. Most people don’t go out and say, ‘i am afraid of Russia.’ It seems like there are two lines of thought of Russophobes:

1) Strength = Stength: the Russian bear has awoken from hibernation, is made strong on high oil prices, and now bullies its neighbors with the ‘gas weapon;’ also, Putin seemingly has the ability to cause anyone pain anywhere anytime. Russia is moving towards dictatorship. It’s like a bear on steroids. Anne Applebaum’s column ‘trickle down lawlessness’ reflects this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/23/AR2007072301362.html)

2) Strength = weakness: Russia’s political and economic resurgence is really a facade, a potemkin village that masks a decaying and stagnant society. The country’s unsustainable political system will inevitably lead to a horrible downfall. Russia is moving towards anarchy. This makes Russia dangerous and unpredictable because it is near the end – like a bear with rabies. I guess Idov’s article more fits this profile though it has elements of both.

These are the two ‘memes’ – to use Idov’s phrase – for which Russophobes instinctively reach. These memes eschew facts and nuance and that’s why they are irrational. One good example: the demographic crisis. A Russophobe following the second meme would argue that evidence of Russia’s decline is its falling population. But birth and death rates are lagging indicators that follow economic fluctuations and social changes. Thus, the current demographic crisis resulted from the Yeltsin era, which most Russophobes glorify, and is just now beginning to reverse as a result of the stability from the Putin era. Finally, a demographic crisis is simply that – a pressing challenge for the Russian government. An Americaphobe might argue that our ‘obesity epidemic’ is indicative of America’s impending collapse – if the average American’s weight continues to increase then we will soon not be able to leave our houses and all productive activity will halt!

“(oops, just kidding, that would probably be considered a “Russophobic cliche” in some circles),”

No, just really, really, really bad rhetoric.

“These are the two ‘memes’ – to use Idov’s phrase – for which Russophobes instinctively reach.”

They are also what Eco referred to “facist discourse” — the enemy is portrayed as simultaneously overwhelmingly powerful and threatening and weak and crumbling.

Sean,
I like the analogy to Orientalism, that’s what I had in mind

“I’ve been trying to think of something that would capture Edward Said’s notion of Orientialism but make it more Russia specific.”

I think Russia is conceptualized as a subclass of the Orient. It is “Asia.”

Русофобии Тютчев противопоставлял панславизм.

The more things change… Tyutchev, of course, penned the Russo(or, as they called it then, Slavo)philic version of Churchill’s Orientalizing “enigma” line almost a century earlier:

Умом Россию не понять,
Аршином общим не измерить:
У ней особенная стать -
В Россию можно только верить.

I guess today he would perhaps be a Eurasianist.

The problem is Russophobia and Russophilia because each creates a binary predicated on a fetishism of Russia as mysterious, unknowable, and just plain weird.

Yes, both are Orientalist in some sense of the word.

On the other hand, I can’t really speak about Moscow, but from my own memories I can say that SPB in fact was a bit more gray during the Cold War – all those soot-generating factories and none of the neon lights & advertisements.

I guess my problem with all of the discussion of ‘phobes and ‘philes is that it serves as a way to grossly oversimplify things. For example, I doubt Applebaum fabricated the anecdotes about her friends in the column Jesse linked to above. Is it wrong to extrapolate based on a couple of friends and to draw overblown conclusions? Of course. But in dismissing the whole column as “Russophobic” you are implicitly dismissing the problems experienced by the Russians Applebaum discusses. Do you believe them to be made-up, or just irrelevant, unfortunate “broken eggs”?

It does seem hard to believe that she doesn’t seem to have any friends to write about who have been successful in the new Russia, but then again taking a tiny, unrepresentative sample and puffing it up into a preconceived grand conclusion is something that newspaper columnists do every day about pretty much any place in the world. Some, like Tom Friedman, even puff their anecdotal stuff up into whole books. Though I’ll grant you that with respect to e.g. China the grand conclusion is at least sometimes a positive one; with respect to Russia this is much less common.

I guess in Idov’s narrative I detect a little fear of a Russia that is doing well and feels good about itself – perhaps this fear is what provokes the irrational response.

Where exactly in the article did you detect that? Again, I’m sorry to keep going round and round about this, it just seems strange to diagnose someone so conclusively based on one piece of writing. Now I’ll shut up and await my own diagnosis. Please try not to be too harsh.

Gah! Italics run amok. And all I wanted to do was italicize “any…

Should make the diagnosis easier

Thanks for the reply, Jesse. I guess I’ll bow out now on the Russophobia discussion since the conversation turned from common usage to the more scholarly/social science angle (I’m out of of my depth on this).

Jesse, on demographics, you wrote:

“birth and death rates are lagging indicators that follow economic fluctuations and social changes. Thus, the current demographic crisis resulted from the Yeltsin era, which most Russophobes glorify, and is just now beginning to reverse as a result of the stability from the Putin era.”

Well, you blame Idov of exaggerations, isn’t an exaggeration to say that Russophobes glorify the Yeltsin era?

Also, if you say that birth and death rates are lagging indicators then, it seems, that Yeltsin should also be absolved from much of the blame. The birth rate in Russia started to go sharply down in 1989, it stabilized around 1994 and it only started to go up in the last few years. The death rate was increasing very slowly for more than two decades prior to 1992, then it took a sharp upswing until 1995, and then it stayed pretty stable until today. That’s according to the graph I saw in Da Russophile, a pro-Putin blog. Here is a link to the graph itself:

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii139/tolsdogg_photo/demo1.jpg

I am very happy that the demographic situation is improving in Russia, but if you are correct about lagging indicators we certainly cannot blame the downturn on Putin’s immediate predecessor.

“I am very happy that the demographic situation is improving in Russia, but if you are correct about lagging indicators we certainly cannot blame the downturn on Putin’s immediate predecessor.”

Just simply by looking at dates, the obvious person to blame would be Gorbachev, but people don’t want to go there.

What an exhausting subject…

-Lyndon: Idov seized on a series of anecdotes that he knew or should have known were not representative of the entire country. He used them to paint a gestalt of Russia’s inevitable collapse. Why would he do this? I can’t get inside his head, but I would assume he is motivated by something – perhaps a strong dislike, perhaps fear. Also, his article was a feature, not an editorial column. He could have done a really in-depth investigative report on Nashi that would have been far more damning without any of the editorializing.

-Kolya: see, we can have a discussion about the demographic situation without using stark terms about the apocalypse coming to Russia. Idov would be wise to learn from that…

Lyndon, whenever you’re ready to get help:

“The expert phobia team at The CTRN Phobia Clinic is board-certified to help with Russophobia and a variety of related problems. The success rate of our 24 hour program is close to 100%.”

http://www.changethatsrightnow.com/shortdescriptionlist.asp?phobiaid=1821

BTW, found this on google books:

“To the great army of russophobes who mislead others, and russophiles whom others mislead I dedicate this book which will be found equally disrespectful to the ignoble terrors of the one and the perverse complacency of the others”

-George Curzon, Russia in Central Asia in 1889
http://books.google.com/books?id=c9ANAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=russia+in+central+asia&ei=fvP7R52lD4PUzASSi5HjDQ#PPR3,M1

Exhausting indeed. I completely agree that he lined up all of the era’s negative aspects being bemoaned by many among the chattering classes in Moscow. I don’t know if he turned on his TV while in Moscow (he mentions NTV coverage, so probably he did), but perhaps he was driven to exclude anything positive by the relentless positivity of that pervasive medium. Or perhaps he does not regard materialism/consumerism as positive at all, as you suggested before, in which case – also as you suggested – he’s probably not on the same page with many Russians. Then again, he’s writing his impressions, not taking an opinion poll – plenty of those exist already.

You say Idov has “paint[ed] a gestalt [I confess I had to look that up] of Russia’s inevitable collapse.” I re-read the article (for like the third time) and honestly did not see anything that hinted at a collapse. He doesn’t deny the country’s wealth and the sustainability of the current system; he even hints at the possibility that Medved might forge a new path of his own. He laments the current state of affairs but does not even hint at a “collapse.” Really, I sort of wonder if we’re talking about the same article.

You’ll also note that he does not engage in condemnation of the “Russian people” – a staple of true Russophobia – he simply, accurately in my opinion, describes many of them as indifferent to or disgusted with politics.

Why did he not do an old-school bit of investigative journalism? Who knows? It could be that it just isn’t as much fun, and he wanted to have fun. Or it could be that he realizes that readers of an American magazine do not want to read a down-in-the-weeds investigation of how Vasya Pupkin skimmed $10m from the Nashi coffers, since they have no idea what Nashi (not to mention Pupkin) is, nor do they particularly care? One of the aspects of journalism that wasn’t really mentioned in the other thread discussing the profession’s difficulties in covering Russia is that journalists (especially if they’re not writing wire reports) have to write for their audience.

Plus it seems that foreign journos are well-advised not to do hard investigative reporting nowadays. Apparently that is now considered “activity inconsistent with the status of a journalist.” Maybe he wants to get through passport control the next time he travels to Moscow. I’ll admit that’s a bit of a reach, but I’m just saying…

OK, now I need to go call that clinic. I know I’ll be a tough case for them, but hopefully they can help. Thanks for looking out for my mental health. And that book dedication is sweet.

I didn’t know there was a “great army of russophobes” in late XIX century England. I thought they were called ‘jingoists’. I knew that the original ‘jingos’ wanted to fight not just any country, but Russia specifically.

Anyway, I’m not surprised that the term ‘Russophobe’ goes back for quite awhile, however I still think that it was revived and went viral just recently. I don’t remember it being used much in the period from late 80-s thru early 2000-s.

Here’s a comprehensive list of phobias.

http://www.typesofphobias.com/Types_of_Fears/Phobia_Fears_E-F.html

It doesn’t include Russo- or Anglo-, or Islamo-phobias. They all must be subtypes of Xenophobia. So first we must have an unbalanced psyche, then this psyche must fall to Xenophobia out of the great number of other fascinating phobias, and only then it must perverse satisfaction in hatred of all things Russian. So it’s not so easy to become a Russophobe, the journey is quite arduous and full of diversions. Congrats to those who made it to the end, all I can say.

Bravo Lyndon. The dissection Idov’s piece has attracted here is amazing. For folks who (they say) seem to think most journalism is crap, expectations are astonishingly high.

Journos aren’t social scientists or philosophers. They grab interesting stuff — okay, “memes” if you have to be trendy — and turn it into narratives that their audience wants to read. They’re story-tellers. Idov tells a good story. I doubt very much that he regarded it as following either a phobe or phile agenda. It was whatever his editor would buy, based on the editor’s reading of the audience.

Don’t like it? By all means, stop reading and move on.

Meanwhile, I’ve also read the piece several times looking for the leanings adduced here. What I’ve found is a few sharp edges which make the story more readable.

As a consequence, a few more people will have gained a bit more understanding about what’s happening in a place they otherwise wouldn’t spend much time thinking about. That’s a good thing.

I actually haven’t read it.

I actually haven’t read it.

That’s a given.

OUCH!

Go to sleep Chris. It’s bloody 4 am!

I’m nocturnal. Don’t wake up until 10:30.

My bed is looking appealing though. Mmmm…. bed….

g’nite then. Have you clicked on these anti-spam words? Is that Sean talking? You think he spent an evening recording them? And still the video poker people persist.

How many video poker players do you figure are up for grabs on Sean’s blog? Pretty shabby marketing plan I think.

“By the way, the discussion of “Russophobia” to which I believe Mr. Averko is referring can be seen here this one (in the post and comments), for those of you who are not JRL subscribers.”

****

Mr. Averko has a detailed reply to what wasn’t mentioned by the involved folks. It should be released in a few hours time.

That above mentioned discussion included suggestion of the “Russophobia” claim attempting to deflect legitimate criticism away from Russia. That suggestion can be seen as an attempt to belittle the clearcut anti-Rusian biases out there.

BTW, criticism of Russia should also include constructive criticism of it, in the form of in depth analysis; on whether Russia is pursuing its stated objectives in the best possible manner. More often than not, the propped criticism of Russia typically critiques Russia’s stated objectives; as opposed to agreeing with them, while disagreeing with some of the methods.

OK, back to the previously above mentioned cited earlier spoken of notion of cultural stagnation. One, why is it supposed to be good for cultures to be dynamic? Panta rhei kai ouden menei (sorry, have to show off)? Two, what the heck does it mean? Is it even possible? Three, with the invective against “materialism,” isn’t a rejection of (ethical) idealism precisely what the collapse of the USSR was all about to some extent?

Note that I haven’t read the article, so I’m speaking broadly.

“criticism of Russia should also include constructive criticism of it”

Why?

Why not?

Should the criticism be exclusively based on perceptions that are coming from a way of thinking which isn’t in sync with most Russians?

One can agree with a set of policies, while disagreeing with some of the methodology.

Thanks, Jesse, for that Curzon book. I downloaded the whole thing.

Chris, maybe we should not even blame Gorbachev. I’m 53, older than most of you, and besides the exciting generated by Gorbachev in the mid-1980s, I remember reading back then plenty of articles warning that Gorbachev was in an unenviable position because of what he inherited–weak economy and infrastructure, declining health system and troubling demographic trends (all those were, of course, interrelated).

Yes, the numbers got worse, but what I find interesting is that the Soviet Union’s life expectancy trend during the pre-perestroika period was nothing to brag about. As we all know, US life expectancy lags behind other developed countries. Nonetheless, like in those other countries, US life expectancy has been rising slowly through the years (with no dips). For example, in 1959 it was 69.98 years and by 1985 it was 74.79 years. Compared that to the Soviet Union: in 1959 it was 67.65 years, and in 1985 it was 68.33 years (and this insignificant rise was not steady, there were some slight dips in the process–the 1979 figure is lower than the one for 1959.)

(I can give links, if anyone is interested.)

“Chris, maybe we should not even blame Gorbachev.”

Oh yeah, I know all that stuff, and am not sure we should _blame_ anybody. I was just pointing out that Gorby is the guy under whom the stark collapse started, so if someonw wanted to point to a direct causal correlation between the state of affairs and the one guy in power, he’s the obvious choice. But Westerners don’t do this (except for a handful of leftover Communists) for ideological reasons.

So it seems like the ura-patrioty (with the assistance of the blogger or kollektiv that you identified) have dusted off an old term which is perhaps a relic of the Great Game or somesuch.

I have heard the term Russophobia used in relation to the attitudes of certain contemporary British parliamentarians and commentators at the time of the Great Game in at least two separate sources written in the early 90s, although whether this term was used at the time or not I don’t know.

It’s entirely different to say that Russia’s ‘oil-fueled’ prosperity has caused it to stagnate ‘in the widest sense’.

If what is meant by this is that Russia’s oil wealth has led to a reluctance to overhaul and reform its state institutions, then they are probably correct. Look to any Persian Gulf state to see that whilst the government coffers are nicely filled with oil money, the governmental institutions remain too weak with power concentrated in one or two of them, corrupt, subject to the whims of those in power, overstaffed, and inefficient. In terms of the development of Russia’s state institutions, they have indeed stagnated. Just spend a couple of hours a week dealing with the immigration or tax authorities to see evidence of that.

I wonder how this article, “US Lawmakers Invested in Iraq, Afghanistan Wars” would be presented if the title was “Russian Lawmakers Invested in [Insert war here].”

It was P.J. O’Rourke who said that if legislators can rule on what can be bought and sold, the first thing to be bought and sold is legislators. The one universal constant running across the globe is that politicians will use their position to line their own pockets at every available opportunity. Whether Russia is any worse than the US or UK in this regard is a matter of degree, and a fine one at that.

“If what is meant by this is that Russia’s oil wealth has led to a reluctance to overhaul and reform its state institutions, then they are probably correct.”

-Again, that’s a policy choice the government has made and it will have to live with the consequences if it is indeed so stagnant. The distinction is between Russia making poor policy decisions because of oil wealth and Russia’s cultural stagnation and impending doom due to oil wealth. To me, it’s the sensationalization of relatively mundane issues that makes the argument Russophobic. I’m not claiming that oil wealth has made everything awesome…

BTW, have you ever had to deal with the IRS? Try waiting 4 months for them to get a copy of your 1040 while they charge you interest on ‘back taxes’ at a rate that they won’t disclose – not. cool.

The distinction is between Russia making poor policy decisions because of oil wealth and Russia’s cultural stagnation and impending doom due to oil wealth.

I have yet to see anyone, Idov included, claim the latter.

BTW, have you ever had to deal with the IRS?

Fortunately not, but I am quite ready to believe the IRS, like the UK’s HMRC, is as slow, oppressive, and incompetent as their Russian counterpart.

The one universal constant running across the globe is that politicians will use their position to line their own pockets at every available opportunity. Whether Russia is any worse than the US or UK in this regard is a matter of degree, and a fine one at that.

Very true. And the only way a country can be better or worse on this scale is actual power of politicians realized via the power of the state to regulate and basically run a racket. Russia is worse on this scale only because more people are dependent on the state then in the US in general.

I did not see “impending collapse” in the article either. I saw critical look at the current environment and some of it goes righ along Medvedev’s own laments about Russia’s legal nihilism. It sure is good for the goose.

I am afraid that some here are exhibiting the old phenomenon of “Russians can bemoan Russia freely but when someone else comes and repeats the same – hands off, Russophobe!” Sort of similar with the use of the N-word that is now reserved for black only in the US.

Since the article’s reference to zastoi/stagnation is such a bone of contention, for those who have not read Idov’s piece, let me quote the relevant part along with what was immediately before and after.

/////… Coupled with economic hardships, this bureaucratic cronyism would undoubtedly fuel dissent, and perhaps even a popular revolt on par with Ukraine’s “Orange Revolution.” With oil prices where they are, wages rising across the board, and the new middle class getting its first taste of bank credit, however, all it breeds is utter indifference to the very concept of democracy.

Unlike Gorbachev’s perestroika, the key word of the Brezhnev era–zastoi, or stagnation–never gained currency in English, but it describes late-Putinist Russia fairly well. Economically booming, politically resurgent, today’s Russia is also culturally stagnant in the widest sense. Its only identifiable passion is to be taken seriously abroad. The depth of the Russian humiliation cannot be overstated. When a man named Vitaly Kaloyev, whose wife and child died in a Swiss plane crash, went to Switzerland and knifed the culpable air-traffic controller to death, he came back a national hero. A group of Nashi members met his flight with signs reading “You’re A Real Man,” and the North Ossetia Region honored Kaloev as its Man of the Year. He was soon offered a high government post.”/////

Okay, some readers may object to his line that Russia’s “only identifiable passion is to be taken seriously abroad” and I certainly hope Idov is wrong about Russia’s cultural stagnation (or hope that it’s short-lived phenomenon). In any event, FH has it totally right:

“Journos aren’t social scientists or philosophers. They grab interesting stuff — okay, “memes” if you have to be trendy — and turn it into narratives that their audience wants to read. They’re story-tellers. Idov tells a good story. I doubt very much that he regarded it as following either a phobe or phile agenda. It was whatever his editor would buy, based on the editor’s reading of the audience.

Don’t like it? By all means, stop reading and move on.

Meanwhile, I’ve also read the piece several times looking for the leanings adduced here. What I’ve found is a few sharp edges which make the story more readable.

As a consequence, a few more people will have gained a bit more understanding about what’s happening in a place they otherwise wouldn’t spend much time thinking about. That’s a good thing.”

All right, now I have to do some real work!

“When a man named Vitaly Kaloyev, whose wife and child died in a Swiss plane crash, went to Switzerland and knifed the culpable air-traffic controller to death, he came back a national hero.”

I think something similar would happen in pretty much any country. God knows I sympathized with the poor father.

Anyway, countries don’t have aspirations, except to some extent for ideologically fueled ones like totalitarianisms and/or theocracies. In my experience that they SHOULD is usually a province of the young — which perhaps not coincidentally the author or the piece appears to be.

Actually he looks like David Schwimmer. I keep expecting him to cry out “we were on a break!”

I think something similar would happen in pretty much any country.

I can assure you that Brits would not think this chap a national hero.

He would get a government job for extrajudicially murdering someone? In “pretty much any country”? Chris, you’ve been in Moscow too long.

There is a big difference between some popular support for this kind of vigilantism and the government rewarding it. And it’s funny how the Russian government didn’t do much to help the victims of this tragedy, which was why this guy felt compelled to take matters into his own hands; yet then when he became a sensation for having taken things into his own hands, groups like Nashi were quick to jump on the “stick it to the evil foreigners” bandwagon for a free ride. Disgusting.

“Tim Newman on April 9, 2008 8:03 am So it seems like the ura-patrioty (with the assistance of the blogger or kollektiv that you identified) have dusted off an old term which is perhaps a relic of the Great Game or somesuch.

I have heard the term Russophobia used in relation to the attitudes of certain contemporary British parliamentarians and commentators at the time of the Great Game in at least two separate sources written in the early 90s, although whether this term was used at the time or not I don’t know.”

****

For sure. Some Brits feared Russia making advances into parts of their empire. India being one example.

Edgar Rice Burroughs was a kind of early day Ian Fleming. In his Tarzan series, there’re two Russian bad guys in India. At that time in history (late 19th/early 20th century), Russia showed no reasonable push in Africa.

For sure, there has been a fear of Russia. What’s greater among the so-called “Russophobes”: fearing or disliking Russia? In a number of instances both seem evident. Overall, which of the two is more prevalent?

”Disgusting.”

I thought the whole thing was the pits as well. A lot of Russians I spoke to had the attitude that nothing would be done against the air-traffic controller because ”Russians were killed and Russians dont matter to westerners”. What a stinking crock of shit. This kind of crap is just loved by Nashi and their ilk. I can assure you readers that such action would most certainly not be condoned in Ireland either. Russians I guess are just used to having a crap police force and authorities with absolutely no interest in serving the public, and the only way to get ”justice” was to murder in revenge, and think that it must be the same in the west. Thankfully thats not the case here.

The Genesis of Russophobia in Great Britain
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22The+Genesis+of+Russophobia+in+Great+Britain%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f

I agree with Lyndon and Tim. I cannot imagine such a guy becoming a hero or being officially honored. One thing is to empathize with him up to a certain extent, quite another is to condone or even call his act honorable. Yes, I can understand that he was distraught, but he killed a man who never intended any harm to his or anyone else’s family.

Did not see your comment, Ger….

The paradox seems to be there are very few actual Russophobes nowadays, but great many people considering themselves victims of Russophobia.

“Candide on April 9, 2008 11:45 am The paradox seems to be there are very few actual Russophobes nowadays, but great many people considering themselves victims of Russophobia.”

****

The “very few actual Russophobes” play relatively influential roles, when compared to their opposites.

The kind of tolerated commentary about Russia and Russians would be considered more unacceptable if some other groups were targeted.

I didn’t think of the government job part. That’s true. He would be a popular hero though in the States anyway. The Free Republic people would go apeshit.

Actually the people who accidentally shot down the Iranian airliner were given honors. Whoops!

“Chris, you’ve been in Moscow too long.”

Could you be any more self-righteous, sonsidering that you live in the First World’s squallid Murder Capital, with a 70% poverty rate? Maybe you should be looking a little closer to home when talking about government callousness.

* In Switzerland, it’s a whopping one-year suspended sentence or a $12,000 fine: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/09/04/swiss-crash.html

“A lot of Russians I spoke to had the attitude that nothing would be done against the air-traffic controller because ”Russians were killed and Russians dont matter to westerners”. What a stinking crock of shit.”

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/09/04/swiss-crash.html

“Three of those convicted Tuesday — all middle managers — received one-year suspended prison sentences. The fourth was ordered to pay an $11,800 US fine for his role in the collision, on July 1, 2002, of a Bashkirian Airlines Tupolev 154 plane and a DHL cargo jet near the south German town of Ueberlingen, killing the two cargo pilots and everyone on the passenger plane.”

One-year suspended sentences and $12,000. In other words, they were punished with nothing.

Wait a second — just out of curiosity, was he greeted as a Russian national hero a North Ossetian hero? He’s not Russian you know.

Actually the people who accidentally shot down the Iranian airliner were given honors. Whoops!

Sorry, what does this have to do with the Kaloyev case exactly?

Could you be any more self-righteous, sonsidering that you live in the First World’s squallid Murder Capital, with a 70% poverty rate? Maybe you should be looking a little closer to home when talking about government callousness.

Could you be any more divorced from reality? You’re operating with old info, Chris. DC hasn’t been the “murder capital” for a while, and you may want to check current poverty stats. Google “DC gentrification” (and yes, sadly some of the poverty has just been pushed out of the city – almost Luzhkovian).

Anyway, the knock on DC gov’t has never been that they are “callous” or indifferent – just incompetent/inefficient – e.g., among the highest per capita per-pupil expenditures in the public schools, but with horrible results. I’ve been known to compare the level of corruption and gov’t inefficiency in my hometown to that in my vtoraia rodina.

One-year suspended sentences and $12,000. In other words, they were punished with nothing.

What do you think would happen in a similar situation in Russia? What exact law would you charge them under? Look up the case of the guards at Domodedovo who let the shakhidki bribe their way onto those planes. I could be wrong, and I don’t have time to look it up, but I doubt they were int he dock for murder.

Um, yes, I know he’s not russkii. But IIRC he was feted upon arrival in Moscow by a number of federal-level groups.

”One-year suspended sentences and $12,000. In other words, they were punished with nothing.”

In fairness, it was hard for the Swiss to jail the air-traffic control for manslaughter because he was….you know, dead? Murdered? At the end of the day the air-traffic controller was at fault, not middle management. There are no doubt the systems in place were shambolic but jailing middle management would have been ridiculous. So I still think the Russian view of the whole thing, that westerners could get away with manslaughter because it was Russians who died, is a pile of bullshit. This from the same people who hardly batted an eyelid when thousands of their own people were killed in Grozny 1994-1996. Hilarious. Just hilarious. And whilst we’re at it, I’m pretty sure if it were western planes that had collided on account of Russian negligence, no-one would be jailed in Russia. Not a hope. Why? Because everything is the fault of the west, after all:-)

Kolya -d’accord.

Chris – the man was Ossetian, and according to one anecdote I heard, this kind of revenge killing is not unusual in those parts. Did it bring his wife and kids back? No. Did it make him happy that he did it? Unlikely. Would the air-traffic controller have slept a night in peace had he lived? Definitely not. Are a family grieving in Switzerland because of a young man’s death? Absolutely. Yeah, he sure did the right thing. Maladyets.

“Chris – the man was Ossetian, and according to one anecdote I heard, this kind of revenge killing is not unusual in those parts.”

Yeah, that’s exactly what I was thinking. It’s a vigilante culture.

Lyndon, unless a miracle has happened since I lived in DC (which can happen — it has in Moscow, but then the US has not been experiencing an economic boom), it is divided into areas of squallor full of violence and largely affluent areas, these suspiciously usually correlating to the skin color of their inhabitants. When I was working in an AIDS policy advisory center in Silver Spring in 1999, the HIV infection rate in DC prisons was something like 50% and the average number of abortions per woman in Southeast DC something like 8. However, the point is not to engage in Averkian tu quoqueisms. The point is that you should maybe be a little less gratingly self-righteous about other people’s countries. It’s really irritating. Just imagine what Lyndon Allin’s reaction would be if Medvedev had advocated use of torture in the run-up to the election.

“Would the air-traffic controller have slept a night in peace had he lived?”

Assuming this is true, which is likely, I think the same is true for most people who commit negligent homicide, such as practically every drunk driver who has ever plowed into somebody. Let alone negligent mass murder. In fact it’s likely true for most people who commit homicide in general. Call me an advocate of retributionist justice if you will, but that is not enough.

”Call me an advocate of retributionist justice if you will, but that is not enough.”

But he would have been jailed had he lived Chris, of that there is no doubt. And he was already dead, when you think about it. His heart was still beating, but his life was over. And retributionism is not justice -he did not deserve to die. He did not murder anyone. I’m actually in favour of capital punishment for violent rape and murder, but he murdered no-one, and should not have died. The only murderer in all this was the Ossetian.

“However, the point is not to engage in Averkian tu quoqueisms.”

****

More like Doss absurdly thinking that he’s a more knowledgeable and intelligent source on a number of issues.

Could you be any more self-righteous, sonsidering that you live in the First World’s squallid Murder Capital, with a 70% poverty rate?

Relative poverty, probably calculated without considering non-cash governmental aid. That’s a bullshit statistic if ever I’ve seen one.

“Relative poverty, probably calculated without considering non-cash governmental aid. That’s a bullshit statistic if ever I’ve seen one.”

You’ve never been in DC, have you? Please do not try to tell me what the city I lived in for 6 years is like. If you do, I will begin lecturing you on living conditions in Wales.

By the way, ALL poverty is relative.

“And he was already dead, when you think about it. His heart was still beating, but his life was over.”

You’re such a softy! Neither you or I know what was going through the guy’s head.

“But he would have been jailed had he lived Chris, of that there is no doubt.”

How do you know this?

”How do you know this?”

First of all, the middle boys got suspended sentences inspite of only indirect involvement, and seemingly criminal negligence causing death is a custodial offence in Switzerland. I saw it on a BBC documentary about the whole thing. He was going down by all accounts, as he was explicitly responsible. 10 years as I recall was what was thought of.

”You’re such a softy!”

Ya znayu, znayu:-) But in fairness it would be a rare person indeed who could put that much death behind them.

You’ve never been in DC, have you? Please do not try to tell me what the city I lived in for 6 years is like.

I will if you’re going to tell me that 70% of the population live in poverty. Yes, I have been in DC, and no, it wasn’t twice as bad as Victorian London.

By the way, ALL poverty is relative.

Not true. There is absolute poverty, which has been defined in numerous ways, which is not relative. However, absolute poverty does not allow scary stastics to be bandied about quite so easily.

Chris, I don’t see any self-righteousness in Lyndon. He’s more than willing to slam the US when it deserves it. The impression I get from you, though, is that all too often you respond with typical knee-jerk anti-West/US reactions. Ironically, such reactions are not too uncommon among Americans.

Dzhesus kraist!
I just said that Idov didn’t impressed me!
It’s much more fun and interesting to read this blog’s “writers”, indeed, than the person who pretends to be smart and knowledgeable but …

PS. It also shows how effective Cold War propaganda was. WAS? I think – IS.

“Yes, I have been in DC, and no, it wasn’t twice as bad as Victorian London.”

Comparing a city in 21st century America to one in Victorian Britain is fucking ridiculous as you well know.

And no, you cannot be absolutely poor, because the concept of “poor,” like “rich,” only makes sense with respect to an average, which only exists in a given time and place.

“Chris, I don’t see any self-righteousness in Lyndon. He’s more than willing to slam the US when it deserves it. The impression I get from you, though, is that all too often you respond with typical knee-jerk anti-West/US reactions.”

There is some truth in this. However, Lyndon’s flag of righteousness is seen to wave whenever he accuses people he doesn’t agree with of being inheritors of the NKVD or whatever, which is frequent. He seems incapable of believing that people can disagree with him without being either evil or stupid.

Comparing a city in 21st century America to one in Victorian Britain is fucking ridiculous as you well know.

No more ridiculous than claiming a 21st century American city has 70% poverty.

And no, you cannot be absolutely poor, because the concept of “poor,” like “rich,” only makes sense with respect to an average, which only exists in a given time and place.

Who said anything about rich or poor? I am talking about the concept of poverty, which can be defined in absolute or relative terms. I find the former much more useful when addressing the problem of poverty (which certainly exists) because absolute poverty is something all societies need to eliminate, whereas eliminating relative poverty is an exercise in making everybody of equal wealth. And we’ve all seen the ultimate conclusions of these type of plans.

Wow, step away for a few hours and look what happens…

Lyndon, unless a miracle has happened since I lived in DC (which can happen — it has in Moscow, but then the US has not been experiencing an economic boom),

Actually, DC property values basically doubled from about 2000-2005. They’re not growing anymore, that’s for sure, but they aren’t plummeting, either. I’m sure you think I’m bullshitting, but the change has been amazing. Yes, the areas across the Anacostia are still in bad shape, and (as I mentioned above) some people have simply been priced out of the city and moved to PG County, but there are far fewer such places than there were 10 or 15 years ago.

it is divided into areas of squallor full of violence and largely affluent areas, these suspiciously usually correlating to the skin color of their inhabitants.

Chris, please read my earlier comment again and spare me the “Chelovek s Pyatogo Avenyu” bit (the article at that link is priceless). Believe it or not, it is no longer the 1990s, DC is no longer the “murder capital,” and I doubt the poverty rate has ever been 70% (see, e.g., here for income and poverty figures, and here for crime stats, although I know you’re sometimes averse to reading things that interfere with your worldview).

There is great disparity in incomes, to be sure, but is that not the case in Moscow as well (the triumph of capitalism!)? Although arguably many of its problems stem from too much government money spent badly as opposed to the sort of inhumanity you imply, DC is definitely a fucked up and perhaps even an unjust place in many ways (for example, see here, though I wonder where DC would fall in a ranking of Russian regions – and I realize that trying to make the comparison is absurd, but it seems to be what you’re doing). And the situation in US prisons is appalling, I couldn’t agree more – but I fail to see your point. I should focus my attention on local problems in DC or systemic issues in America instead of commenting about Russia? Is that it? I guess I should find another blog to comment on that focuses more on those issues.

When I was working in an AIDS policy advisory center in Silver Spring in 1999, the HIV infection rate in DC prisons was something like 50% and the average number of abortions per woman in Southeast DC something like 8. However, the point is not to engage in Averkian tu quoqueisms.

Isn’t it though? To quote you, “weak rhetorical trick.” And again, 1999 was a while ago. Try visiting sometime.

The point is that you should maybe be a little less gratingly self-righteous about other people’s countries. It’s really irritating.

Chris, I’m not sure what you found so grating and irritating. I’d love to hear one other person explain to me what exactly was so self-righteous about my comments above. This is a blog about Russia, therefore my comments here generally address Russia, not the US or other countries. It’s not as though I am spouting off about some place I’ve never been and know nothing about.

Russia is not your country any more than it is my country. I’ve lived 20% of my life there, and I think I’ve earned the right to criticize it if I please – not that one should have to earn the right to express an opinion, and not I think anyone (except, apparently, you) attaches great import to my comments here. Based on your logic, only Americans should be able to criticize the US.

Just imagine what Lyndon Allin’s reaction would be if Medvedev had advocated use of torture in the run-up to the election.

Comical. Medvedev hardly has to advocate it, as it’s already practiced in otdelenies and barracks across the land. But I guess it’s OK since Russians only do it to their own (oh, except when they blew that guy up in Qatar).

However, Lyndon’s flag of righteousness is seen to wave whenever he accuses people he doesn’t agree with of being inheritors of the NKVD or whatever, which is frequent.

Examples? The tongue-in-cheek comment about “wreckers” earlier in the thread? Sorry, I’ll try not to be so “Russophobic” in the future.

He seems incapable of believing that people can disagree with him without being either evil or stupid.

Chris, I don’t think you’re evil or stupid, and it’s really strange to hear you say this, given that you’re a damn sight more dismissive of those who disagree with you in your comments here than I ever am (e.g., your immediate comment about the Idov article and your approach to “Misha” – at least I tried to engage the guy in a debate at great length, fruitless though it was).

My comment that seemed to get your knickers so in a twist was simply based on the fact that in your remarks about DC you are working with old data. As such, living in Moscow and writing about DC based on your experiences of nearly a decade ago, you are – on that particular issue – divorced from reality. That was my only point, I’m sorry you took it so personally.

PS – It’s probably a waste of time for me to respond to your “А у вас негров линчуют”-type critique with actual figures, but …studies of the felon population at the DC Jail have shown HIV infection rates of 8-10 percent…

Not the 50% you “remembered.”

And (just for the sake of comparison):

HIV infection rates are high in many European prisons. One study carried out in 25 European prisons reported particularly high rates in Portuguese (20 percent) and Spanish prisons (13 percent); rates are also high in other countries, including Switzerland (4 to 12 percent) and Italy (7 percent). In Eastern Europe, 6 percent of prisoners in the Ukraine are HIV-positive.

А у “вас” таджиков линчуют.

“PS – It’s probably a waste of time for me to respond to your “А у вас негров линчуют”-type critique”

You missed the point.

Good to hear DC is doing well. I haven’t visited since 2002.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/viewByAuthor?authorID=2713

“e.g., your immediate comment about the Idov article and your approach to ‘Misha’ – at least I tried to engage the guy in a debate at great length, fruitless though it was).”

****

“Fruitless” on account of Lyndon choosing to get away from the specifics.

BTW, I recently engaged Chris on the SRB Vlasov thread in what can be reasonably considered an earnest dialogue on my part.

As for Lyndon: suggesting that Zlobin is one of the better informed Russians because of his DC location can be seen another way. Like some other (not all) Russian media/academia folks, they might become more accepting of the predominating American political culture; upon an extended stay in the US. A reverse trend can be seen with some Americans in Russia. Granted, in both instances, such folks might’ve already been leaning that way. Zlobin is agreeable to Lyndon and hence gets labeled reasonable. Fine. It’d be nice to see other Russians with a take different from Zlobin at Hudson Institute like gatherings. It happens, but not as often.

Another example pertains to Lyndon’s stated desire to see a reunited Moldavian SSR in the EU, as opposed to an independent Pridnestrovie becoming a “Russian puppet state”. Lyndon’s opinion, but one that’s open to honest debate. There’s not enough of that. Rather, digressions onto other matter that get off topic.

That propped JRL discussion on Russophobia was bullshit. Loose criticisms of the way some in the West view Russia was followed by the suggestion that the “Russophobia” claim is an attempt to quash criticism of Russia. Oh really? There isn’t enough criticism of it (much of it absurd) in English language mass media circles? Meantime, that JRL discussion didn’t come near to dealing with the permeating anti-Russian biases out there.

This leads to Lyndon’s use of “Russian anti-Semitism”. Has Lyndon, who shows tendenices that can be called Romanianphile/Moldavianphile express any indignation at Romanian/Moldovan anti-Semitism? Antonescu has a noticeable enough positive following among a minority of extremists in Moldova and Romania. Another Lyndon slant is how he downplays discriminatory attitudes against the Gagauz in Moldova, while making a bigger issue over Latin language rights in Pridnestrovie. I happen to know a Ukrainian of part Gagauz origin who was in Chisinau and the Gagauz region around the time of the Soviet breakup. He said there was clear discrimination of the Gagauz, which included a big sign in front of the parliament building which read something like all Gagauz out. That sign remained up for several days.

We all have a slant. Some more well founded than others. Lyndon’s blog says the view from Washington. That’s his slant and one that is often not challenged enough at some of the higher profile venues.

“Who said anything about rich or poor? I am talking about the concept of poverty, which can be defined in absolute or relative terms.”

Tim, you are using the term as economists use it. I am using it as normal people use it, as in, “state of having very little.”

If you think no American city has 70% poor people, you are very misinformed.

PS. Lyndon, are the DC changes due to some kind of deeper socioeconomic shift, or the result of e.g. demographic changes, such as migration patterns?

Don’t the Gagauz have some kind of broad autonomy inside Moldova?

Yes.

The reference pertained to about the time of the Soviet breakup.

During that period, the Latin language rights issue was brought up relative to Pridnestrovie. That situation has since improved. Pridnestrovie having a more progressive language rights policy than Latvia and Estonia.

If you think no American city has 70% poor people, you are very misinformed.

Without defining “poor” in advance, I wouldn’t think this. But I am pretty certain that there is no American city which has a 70% population without: access to clean, running water, a reliable electricity supply, a reliable food supply of consistent quality, clothing and shoes, adequate if at times pretty crap accommodation, access to a pharmacy, a doctor in reasonably close proximity, and education services within a reasonable distance.

Sure, there are some pretty subjective terms in there, but whilst somebody has all of the above I – personally – cannot describe them as living in poverty.

Yes, I know it’s possible to have all the above and by some definition or other still live in poverty, but using that criteria I really couldn’t give a toss. I have seen too many TV reports about child poverty in the UK where we see footage of a kid who is far from undernourished living in what can only be described as perfectly reasonable accommodation playing sat in front of a TV to believe that poverty as is commonly discussed (usually by politicans, and those on the left) is anything more than an excuse to redistribute income for idealogical reasons to do with “fairness” and “equality” rather than tackling what has traditionally been known as poverty.

Tim, you are using the term as economists use it. I am using it as normal people use it, as in, “state of having very little.”

Actually, on this point I think you have it the wrong way around. You are claiming that 70% of DC live in poverty, a claim which can only be supported by referring to various economic calculations. Most normal people would not consider 70% of DC to be living in poverty.

In some circles, it seems like there’s added pleasure to note how poorer Russia is to others.

Is anyone denying that Russia is poorer than America?

On the matters of poor and Moldova, it’s shocking to see how Moldova is rated the poorest country in Europe (including Albania).

“Most normal people would not consider 70% of DC to be living in poverty.”

When I lived in DC, most people considered 70% (or 60% or 80%, a very large number) of the population to be living in poverty. God knows it was very stark to me coming from San Diego. Actually it was stark to a friend of mine from Yaroslavl when he visited DC, and Yaro is not known for its wealth. (Tam tolko nishie zhivut!) Not that this thread is meant to be on DC.

Being poor in DC is not like being poor in the UK, by the way. as your “nearby doctor” comment shows.

Mike, nobody has compared levels of poverty in Russia and the US.

When I lived in DC, most people considered 70% (or 60% or 80%, a very large number) of the population to be living in poverty

So over 50% of the DC population thinks that 70% of the population live in poverty? That leaves 20% of the population living in poverty, but too thick to realise it. Or maybe they are not actually living in poverty after all.

Regarding the DC area and poverty:

http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/was/ballpark/index.jsp

A few years ago, he MCI Center was built in DC. These new professional sports facilities have replaced structures that are 30-40 years old.

There’re crumbling schools twice as old.

I wonder how much government funding has gone into building these new professional sports facilities for privately owned teams?

Among economists familiar with this kind of issue, there seems to be a consensus that the revenue from these new facilities don’t do much help for the communities near them (with the exception of the eateries and such near them).

Other than that, it’s great having a pro team, so long as the tickets aren’t so pricey.

Ovechkin has to be the most popular Russian in DC.

”In some circles, it seems like there’s added pleasure to note how poorer Russia is to others.”

I think you might be referring to me Mike, but I dont get any pleasure at all from this -I am hopelessly mired into Russia and am not a Russophobe at all, but I call it as I see it. You want to put everyone who disagrees with you in the Russophobe box; if that suits you, good for you.

“The criminal bandit PMR regime” as opposed to a gentler stance on the repackaged KLA.

Sorry, but the former is more democratic and multi-ethnically tolerant than the latter.

The former also happens to be Russocentrically inclned unlike the latter.

You say you call it as you see it. I just did likewise.

I’m convinced that much of the bias is in the subconscious. A particular view permates in the mass media and becomes accepted with little challenge. Afterall, what would motivate disinformation? That’s Russian media.

Part of Operation Kick Ass 2008:

http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/240734.html

“So over 50% of the DC population thinks that 70% of the population live in poverty? That leaves 20% of the population living in poverty, but too thick to realise it. Or maybe they are not actually living in poverty after all.”

Well this would be true if you do not consider that the number of people who think so-and-so number of people live in poverty are, like, themselves in poverty. the population of DC is poor, or was anyway, whether you like it or not, or fits in with your idealized vision of the United States or not.

”Part of Operation Kick Ass 2008:

http://www.inosmi.ru/translation/240734.html”

We can take it as given that you didnt translate it into Russian yourself, da?:-)

Yeah Mike, there must be some sort of screw-up. They completely mistranslated your essay; they changed the whole point around.

Sometimes intentional and sometimes subconsciously not. The latter having to do with people reading into what they want to believe versus what was actually said.

You’re no doubt aware that Anglo-American Russian to English translators have been known to do the same.

This is allowed because quite frankly it’s often not really paid much attention to. I’ve been told that Anglo-American translators are often not desired because it’s thought they require a greater salary. This can result in some not so great translation. There’re of course the very linguistically gifted.

I can probably pick it up in no time, seeing that my pronunciation is above average. The old man spoke fluent, unaccented Russian.

As for the wiseass quip, there’re analysts and translators, as well as people who can essentially do both. Those doing both don’t necessarily do one or the other as well as those proficient in just one.

Have a problem with my analysis? Challenge it directly, rather than getting off topic with matter not related to it.

You can believe and-or say what the **** you want. I’ve accumulated a nice support base. Especially for someone who doesn’t suck up to the BS out there.

On that point, someone recently designed a double headed mule on a white, blue and orange tricolor relating to Nassau County’s colors.

I am sure somebody butchered the translation on purpose, most likely one of your many enemies. Maybe it was David Johnson.

He doesn’t know Russian.

Could’ve been one of his Indy Media friends, or any number of folks there.

In some ways, it’s easier to be pro-Russian in the US.

To be followed up on.

I also have many friends in Russia

”I can probably pick it up in no time, seeing that my pronunciation is above average. The old man spoke fluent, unaccented Russian.”

No, you cant. You obviously havent ‘picked it up in no time’ up to now. Russian is heavily inflected and is an almost mathematical language. You have to get out the books Mike, something you obviously are too lazy to do. The rest of us great unwashed, so ignorant of FSU matters, had the basic manners to try and learn their lingo. My old man is fluent in Irish -does it mean I can magically speak it without study? No way. Do you even know what a genitive case is Mike? Or the instrumental case?

”Have a problem with my analysis? Challenge it directly, rather than getting off topic with matter not related to it.”

Yes, i do, a very fundamental one -you speak no Russian and are therefore reliant entirely in translations. Its a bit like a duck who cant say ‘quack’. Time to give Berlitz a call Mike:-)!

”I also have many friends in Russia”

we all do. Some of us have even managed to knock off a few birds there gratis. And?

Speaking of Indy Media, checkout this April 6 critique:

http://dc.tengre.net/

Putting aside his extreme libertarian economics, I like that kooky German.

“Or the instrumental case?”

That’s something you put a tuba into, isn’t it?

“To be followed up on.”

No need. I made it up.

“No, you cant. You obviously havent ‘picked it up in no time’ up to now. Russian is heavily inflected and is an almost mathematical language. You have to get out the books Mike, something you obviously are too lazy to do. The rest of us great unwashed, so ignorant of FSU matters, had the basic manners to try and learn their lingo. My old man is fluent in Irish -does it mean I can magically speak it without study? No way. Do you even know what a genitive case is Mike? Or the instrumental case?

”’Have a problem with my analysis? Challenge it directly, rather than getting off topic with matter not related to it.’

Yes, i do, a very fundamental one -you speak no Russian and are therefore reliant entirely in translations. Its a bit like a duck who cant say ‘quack’. Time to give Berlitz a call Mike:-)!”

***

He comes back with a troll like barb going off topic in a hypocritically flawed manner.

Many knowledgeable of a given language aren’t proficient when it comes to a knowledge of the history and politics of the country in question.

A lenghty list can be compiled of some not so intelligent analysis from multi-lingual folks and more superior variants minus the multi-lingualism.

The recent troll like barb here serves as an example.

Time for that idiot to get a life.

“Many knowledgeable of a given language aren’t proficient when it comes to a knowledge of the history and politics of the country in question.”

Knowledge of a language certainly is helpful when someone is fucking with you about the quality of a translation.

”That’s something you put a tuba into, isn’t it?”

Oh, I wish it was. I sure do:-) Russian fucking grammar!!!

”He comes back with a troll like barb going off topic in a hypocritically flawed manner.”

Means: ”I have no answer really to the charge put before me that inspite of claiming to be a Russia analyst I actually speak no Russian”:-)

“Chrisius Maximus on April 10, 2008 4:49 am “To be followed up on.”

No need. I made it up.”

****

I was wondering about that, given how it was forwarded to me by a well educated Russian friend, who you probably know.

He thinks the world of me as do others.

I had a fluent Russian speaker take a quick glance at it as well. Upon that quick glance, she said it seemed on par.

Always willing to play along up to a point.

“IRISHMAN on April 10, 2008 4:53 am ”That’s something you put a tuba into, isn’t it?”

Oh, I wish it was. I sure do:-) Russian fucking grammar!!!

‘He comes back with a troll like barb going off topic in a hypocritically flawed manner.’

Means: ‘I have no answer really to the charge put before me that inspite of claiming to be a Russia analyst I actually speak no Russian’:-)”

****

Means that the above quoted is a troll, who intentionally goes off topic.

”He thinks the world of me as do others.”

Averko, you’re just full of shit. Please provide links to this praise, or we can safely assume it is indeed self adoration rather than validation from third parties.

“Chrisius Maximus on April 10, 2008 4:50 am ‘Many knowledgeable of a given language aren’t proficient when it comes to a knowledge of the history and politics of the country in question.’

Knowledge of a language certainly is helpful when someone is fucking with you about the quality of a translation.”

****

Has more to do with some people who are insecure with their own abilities.

“IRISHMAN on April 10, 2008 4:58 am ”He thinks the world of me as do others.”

Averko, you’re just full of shit. Please provide links to this praise, or we can safely assume it is indeed self adoration rather than validation from third parties.”

****

Get a life troll. Anyone encouraging your manner can’t be much better than your pathetic very low life self.

”Has more to do with some people who are insecure with their own abilities.”

more like your own disability to speak Russian:-)

Not at all troll. It has to do with your own limited knowledge of what I discuss.

”Get a life troll. Anyone encouraging your manner can’t be much better than your pathetic very low life self.”

Go learn Russian troll!:-)

I actually think I will look at the translation and see if they managed to reproduce the various Averkoisms in Russian, or if instead they reworked it into a readable text.

He trolls on and on, showing very limited ability to deal with the specfics raised.

He might just be a ringer for the Stuart character on MAD TV

And I was really hoping that Averko, as he said before, is indeed to good to waste his time on this forum.

Doss, the historically challenged nitwit, who spends his time blabbing on blogs, while not showing much else (his poor English language skills aren’t something to brag about).

The Kolya freak chimes in as well.

”And I was really hoping that Averko, as he said before, is indeed to good to waste his time on this forum.”

I know, I know, I’ll drop it Kolya. He’s such a massive arrogant dumbass its hard to resist sometimes. But, sure enough, he is here trolling again, like at so many other venues he’s been booted out of.

Let the losers babble on among themselves. This is the closest they come to any kind of substantive attention.

“Doss, the historically challenged nitwit, who spends his time blabbing on blogs, while not showing much else”

The subject of this sentence has no corresponding verb.

“IRISHMAN on April 10, 2008 5:10 am ”And I was really hoping that Averko, as he said before, is indeed to good to waste his time on this forum.”

I know, I know, I’ll drop it Kolya. He’s such a massive arrogant dumbass its hard to resist sometimes. But, sure enough, he is here trolling again, like at so many other venues he’s been booted out of.”

****U

He lies again, while glorying in being part of troll patrol.

A truly gutless, no talent wonder for sure.

“I know, I know, I’ll drop it Kolya.”

Me too. Sorry — it’s entertaining as hell for Ger and me, but must be agony for others.

With some exceptions — I know someone who regularly reads this blog just for the Averko wars.

“troll patrol”

Great name for a comic book!

Russian is heavily inflected and is an almost mathematical language.

Also, good pronounciation does not necessarily mean you will be any good a learning the language, and vice versa. My Welsh pronounciation is pretty good as I learned Welsh from age 7 to 13, when sounds are easily formed, hence I can say words like Llanelli and Pwllhelli without any problem at all. But I would struggle like hell to learn Welsh. Somebody may quite possibly have learned the Russian pronounciation as a kid and be better than normal, but it does not follow that they would be able to learn Russian any more easily than normal, and it is given that somebody claiming they would be able to pick up Russian in no time – especially someone living outside of Russia – clearly hasn’t the first idea about what it takes to learn the language.

My wife happens to be one of those geniuses who picks up languages incredibly easy, her being trilingual in Russian, English, and German and almost fluent in Korean, yet she worked her arse off to learn her languages. Talent alone is simply not enough, all talent can do is supplement the hours upon hours of work you must put in.

“Chrisius Maximus on April 10, 2008 5:10 am ‘Doss, the historically challenged nitwit, who spends his time blabbing on blogs, while not showing much else’

The subject of this sentence has no corresponding verb.”

***

The above quoted made himself look like a bigger idiot than he is, in an extended on-line conversation here yesterday.

“Chrisius Maximus on April 10, 2008 5:12 am “I know, I know, I’ll drop it Kolya.”

Me too. Sorry — it’s entertaining as hell for Ger and me, but must be agony for others.

With some exceptions — I know someone who regularly reads this blog just for the Averko wars.

Chrisius Maximus on April 10, 2008 5:12 am “troll patrol”

Great name for a comic book!”

****

It reveals how pathetic the two of you are.

Oh, I should have asked this a long time ago. Tim and Newman, I’ve heard that Russian actually shares many features with the Celtic languages (more than with Indo-European languages as a whole, I mean). I’ve heard it claimed that this is particularly the case with respect to vocabulary, for example, “lapa” for “pa” (an animal’s foot, not my dad). Is this true?

My Russian pronunciation bites. I can’t make my mouth express the difference between “vklyuchit” and “vyklyuchit.”

Doh, Tim and Ger, I mean.

”A truly gutless, no talent wonder for sure.”

Said by a man who is the only one of us who wont admit what he does for a living. Care to fill us now, a full year later?

”.. it’s entertaining as hell for Ger and me, but must be agony for others.”

Chris, its absolutely hilarious, and so easy too. Shooting fish in a barrel. He seems to be a real New Yorker, angry and crank and easy to drive nuts. Some of the stuff he has said is just priceless. A Russia analyst and blatant Russophile who speaks NO RUSSIAN. It just begs for ridicule. But nobody would even mind all that if he didnt love himself so much.

”Talent alone is simply not enough, all talent can do is supplement the hours upon hours of work you must put in.”

I couldnt agree more. Irish doesnt even come easy to us here, never mind Russian. Grammar is all about getting books out, especially when inflection is heavy. You cant ‘just pick it up’. To be honest, I dont think Averko has ever even scoped out the study of Russian and as such has hilariously naive views on the work involved.

I’ve heard it claimed that this is particularly the case with respect to vocabulary, for example, “lapa” for “pa” (an animal’s foot, not my dad). Is this true?

Oh Jesus, I haven’t a clue. Other than a few basic words, the only Welsh I remember is stuff you see on roadsigns. But I can pronounce it just by reading it, e.g. I know exactly how to say “ysbyty” (hospital). And there are a lot of “ch” sounds, such as “bach” (small) and “coch” (red). Having been able to say the “ch” sound since I was a kid makes it easy to say the “x” letter in Russian, e.g. “xorosho”.

The baby brat strikes again.

The comments sections at blogs are his version of a sandbox to play in.

“He seems to be a real New Yorker, angry and crank and easy to drive nuts.”

Neurotic, balding, unemployed, lives with his parents — by Jove, Mike is George Castanza!

Thanks Tim. I have actually heard Welsh spoken only twice in my life, once on the Web and once, believe it or not, in a bar in Moscow. What are the odds of coming across two people speaking Welsh in a bar in Novie Cheremushki?

The RIDICULOUS thing is how this troll repeats himself, while ignoring the counterpoints and failing to successfully defend his views.

Then again, an intelligent person would fail at that as well. It’s hard to coverup for idiotically held views.

“Chrisius Maximus on April 10, 2008 5:28 am ‘He seems to be a real New Yorker, angry and crank and easy to drive nuts.’

Neurotic, balding, unemployed, lives with his parents — by Jove, Mike is George Castanza!”

***

Chris is the David Spade character in that secretarial role he played.

Little, with little achievements and living in a big city.

Rather: Chris is the secretarial character in the role played by David Spade.

In any event, I’ve work to do.

You sissy boyz can carry on here. This is obviously the highlight of your lives.

Quite pathetic.

”I’ve heard it claimed that this is particularly the case with respect to vocabulary, for example, “lapa” for “pa” (an animal’s foot, not my dad). Is this true?”

Lapa IS paw in Irish! Amazing!

”Oh Jesus, I haven’t a clue”

Neither do I:-) I just looked it up in my Irish schoolkids dictionary, issued to all of us scruffy kids way back by the Irish Dept. of Education when the IMF were about to take over the country in the 1980s!

”What are the odds of coming across two people speaking Welsh in a bar in Novie Cheremushki?”

Truth is stranger than fiction. I was walking through Kitai Gorod pyani one night about 5 years ago and saw a sign on a wall near the Polytechnical Museum that said ‘Bealtaine’(‘may’, or ’summertime’) in Irish script. I was shocked and delighted. Underneath it in Irish and Russian was advertising for an Irish music festival. Amazing. I was so delighted to see our old script, so far from home! And you can study Irish at MGU apparently. There’s a huge drive here in Ireland at the moment to get us all speaking it as the language really is dying.

Mike, your days of faux-punditry are numbered. Troll Patrol has started its own Operation Kick Ass 2008, and it has your name written all over it. You’re going down baby. Troll Patrol, otherwise known as Team Troll, is ready to bring you to your knees (in the previously mentioned above cited aforesaid manner). There’s a new TT in town, and it ain’t the Tiraspol Times (which by the way has no print edition).

Troll Patrol Assemble!

“Truth is stranger than fiction. I was walking through Kitai Gorod pyani one night about 5 years ago and saw a sign on a wall near the Polytechnical Museum that said ‘Bealtaine’(‘may’, or ’summertime’) in Irish script.”

When my mom heard people speaking her native Low German dialect on the streets of San Diego, she almost fainted from shock. Small world.

I was told about the Celtic-Russian similarities by a young Russian-Irish (mother Irish, dad Russian) woman several years ago. Like I said I have no idea if it is true or not.

Troll Patrol Ireland Present and Correct!!:-)

whats the day job Mike?

”I was told about the Celtic-Russian similarities ”

Absolutely. As a Russian man I heard once said ”the Irish and Russians are very similar in many ways. Both are prone to melancholy, and yet both love partying”:-)

Troll Patrol Moscow Here and Ready for Battle!

Trolls, Roll Out!

Misha,

“The “very few actual Russophobes” play relatively influential roles, when compared to their opposites.”

This sounds vaguely scary. Who are you talking about, specifically?

Talking about vague feelings, I remain vaguely troubled by any manifestation of Russian nationalism. Because even if Putinists are right and Russia does need to go through a phase of ‘enforced national unity’ (which is a code word for Fascism as it was practiced in Portugal, for example), then the danger of Nationalistic outbreaks becomes very serious indeed. National Unity (i.e. Fascism) may only work with complete suppression of any ideological excesses. We know what National Unity coupled with Xenophobia leads to.

I don’t see Idov as a Russophobe at all, even under Jesse’s more benign undertanding of the word. However, if we are going to view Russophobia the way Jesse see’s it, then we have to say that Ameriphobia is more widespread and more of a problem than Russophobia.

In any event, I certainly dislike both terms (Russophobia and the thankfully little used Ameriphobia) and find that their use is unhelpful and distortive.

“Talking about vague feelings, I remain vaguely troubled by any manifestation of Russian nationalism. Because even if Putinists are right and Russia does need to go through a phase of ‘enforced national unity’ (which is a code word for Fascism as it was practiced in Portugal, for example),”

I dunno. It sounds to me like De Gaulle would count as a fascist according to this definition. It means more than just enforced national unity, IMO, although it is admittedly a vague concept.

Do you mean great power nationalism or ethnic nationalism?

There are several incredibly strange correlations that can hardly be coincident. Ukrainian word for minute is хвiлина (not sure of exact spelling). The English “while” used to be “hwile” – like the famous “hwan that April”.

There is also a tendency to substitute ф (and sometimes в )with хв in some parts of south-western Russia, Belarus and Ukraine (Хведор, хворобей. Keeping this in mind and consider “forest” and “хворост”.

I would suspect that some of these correlations come from the proto Urals tongue from where both Celts and Slavs come.

Chrisius Maximus,

I don’t know much about De Gaulle, but I’m fascinated by similarities between Salazar’s party of ‘União Nacional’ (National Unity) and Putin’s UR. Salazar was Prime Minister and now Putin is becoming PM too, which is almost uncanny.

Candide, I actually know practically nothing about that period in Portugese history (or any period in Portugese history). Could you point me to some sources?

This note has nothing to do with this thread. Just want to thank you Ivanov for recommending “Записки русского путешественника” at:

http://hitch-hiker.livejournal.com/

This livejournal contain the writings and photos of Artem, a young Russian hitchhiker. Although I didn’t rely on hitchhiking as much as him, when I was about Artem’s age I hitchhiked thousands of miles in three different continents. Perhaps that’s part of the reason I’m enjoying his site. But not only because of it. I’m sure many of you will find it interesting even if you did very little or no hithchiking in your lifetime.

After reading about some of Artem’s travels, I now hope to convince a friend of mine to publish online some of what she wrote during her travels in South America. She and another woman, both Americans in their twenties, hitchhiked on their own across Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Argentina and Chile.

Chrisius Maximus,

I admit, my research is rather limited.

Mainstream source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_de_Oliveira_Salazar

and one a bit off the beaten path:

http://www.cripo.com.ua/?sect_id=9&aid=23643

Just want to thank you Ivanov for recommending “Записки русского путешественника”

I second Kolya’s motion on this. Artem is brilliant. He ought to consider travel writing as a career. I’m totally hooked.

Thanks again Ivanov.

FH, I’m glad you like Artem’s travel writing. I hope he gets the readership he deserves.

And my apologies to readers for injecting my own ego into my recommendation by stupidly mentioning that once upon a time I did some hitchiking.

“And my apologies to readers for injecting my own ego into my recommendation by stupidly mentioning that once upon a time I did some hitchiking.”

You’re a monster. No one else here would ever do anything like that. Where did you hitchhike to? I’d be scared of being knifed.

…stupidly mentioning that once upon a time I did some hitchiking.

Kolya! Stop being so modest! You’ll embarrass the rest of us with our towering egos.

I used to love hitchhiking. I think I saw most parts of North America that way. (See? No modesty at all.) But that was, err, well, a very long time ago, and my guess is people don’t do it much any more. Is that correct?

I’d be scared of being knifed.

Yeah, my thought exactly.

Thanks, guys.

Well, it was a long time ago for me too, FH. In Venezuela, Western Europe and the US. I don’t know how typical my own experience was but at least back then Europe was a good place for hitchhikers. Not uniformly so, though. In Austria I had to wait for a long time between rides and in France it was even much harder. In Venezuela people readily gave rides. Not so in the US, though. The waits in the US were not as long as in France, but they were considerably longer than what I had experienced elsewhere.

Incidentally, I got really nervous when about four years ago the friend I mentioned earlier wrote about her plans to hitchhike around those Latin American countries (she was living in Ecuador). As it was, she and her companion (also a woman) had no problems. I admire them for doing that, but I certainly will not encourage my daughter to emulate them!

Was this one trip, or several, Kolya?

FH, if you are asking about the two gutsy American women in South American–that was one trip. If the question about my trips, they were several. I hitchhiked many times–I think you’re right that it was more common in the past. If I limit myself to trips that took several days to complete, I only had three such trips. One in Venezuela, one in Europe and one in the US. After a hitchhiking trip from the Rockies to the Pacific Coast and back to the Rockies, I decided that for my next trip in the US I might as well buy an old cheap clunker of a car.

Although (in my experience) the US is not the best country for hitchhikers, the people who did give me rides were usually great. I became good friends with one of them, and later I even visited and stayed in his cabin for several days (he was an outdoor survival instructor living by the Tetons in Wyoming).

How about your hitchhiking trips?

Although (in my experience) the US is not the best country for hitchhikers, the people who did give me rides were usually great.

I never hitched outside N. America, so I can’t compare. But I did like the overwhelming majority of people who picked me up. They were almost invariably kind and flatteringly curious about where I’d been, where I was going, what I was doing, etc. I say “almost” because of course some were just bored. Truckers were seldom good company because they wanted you to keep them awake. I liked farmers the most, though their rides were always short. Surprisingly often they’d offer food and a room for the night.

I travelled like that through my late teens and my early 20s, any chance I got, and even well after I bought a car.

Years later, doing a teaching gig in NYC, I used to commute home to DC on weekends, and for a time made it a practice to pick up hitchers. But they were generally a bit scarey and ultimately my wife persuaded me to stop.

I mustn’t romanticize all this. It was a cheap means of long-distance transport. But it was a lot more interesting than a discount airline today.

With regard to your American friends and their South American trip — my daughter sometimes threatens something similar. I well understand how you feel about it. Unfortunately, my kid’s old enough not to have to pay much attention to my misgivings.

Thanks for note, FH.

Yes, you often end up meeting very generous people when you are sort of roughing it when traveling. When I lived in Colorado in the early 1980s, I became good friends with a guy from Switzerland. He was driving an old Volvo across the US. He would stay and work (illegally) in a place he liked and then, after a few weeks or a couple of months, will continue on. Well, he left Colorado for California. On the way, though, his radiator died in a little town in Wyoming (forgot the name). He ended up staying at the home of the town’s mechanic and his family. After more than a week the radiator arrived and the mechanic installed it. The car was ready to go. There was one major hitch, though. My Swiss friend had no money left with him. It turned out that before leaving Colorado he arranged a wire transfer from Switzerland to San Francisco, which he thought he’ll reach in a couple of days. (Remember that in those days it was much more cumbersome to deal with money when traveling.) So he was stuck in Wyoming and had no funds, not even to pay for the radiator. No problem. The mechanic gave him a couple of hundred bucks so he could make it to San Francisco. As soon as he arrived, he sent the mechanic all the money he owed him–for the car repair and the borrowed money. The memory of such generosity stayed with him forever.

I also try to pick up hitchhikers if there is room in the vehicle. Once I had an odd experience–sort of funny and sad at the same time. I was driving through the Navajo Reservation and saw two hitchhiking teen-age Native Americans. I stopped the car and they ran with excitement toward the car. When they got in, though, I noticed that they looked at me with surprise. Their destination was about fifty miles away on the same route I was following. After a few words they clamped down. It’s not that they were quiet or shy. It was obvious that for some reason they were extremely uncomfortable or even scared. After only about twenty miles or so, at a lonely crossroad, they asked me to stop. They came up with some excuse. After a quick attempt to convince them to keep on going, I desisted and dropped them off. Frankly, I don’t know what that was all about. For some reason I scared them. Perhaps they never got a ride from a white guy before, especially one with a somewhat strange accent. Maybe it was something else. I don’t know.

All right. Time for dinner. Sorry about these non-Russia stories, Sean.

Perhaps they never got a ride from a white guy before, especially one with a somewhat strange accent.

Yes, I think fear, on both sides — some maybe justified, most not — is what’s killed off hitching in many parts of the world. Just like flagging down a private car is gradually dying out in Moscow, although the rise of the commercial taxi industry has probably played a role in that.

”Just like flagging down a private car is gradually dying out in Moscow..etc”

Is it? I havent been for two years. What a great pity if thats the case! Its great fun. I was always getting lifts from Tatars, Armenians, Georgians, Chechens etc…was always very funny, even with my bad Russian, to hear their take on Moscow and Russia. And almost invariably they liked the Russians, but considered them a bit dumb:-)

I see on bbc.co.uk/news that Smirnov and Voronin had talks.

Ger – The mayor and others have been trying to stop it. I’m not exactly sure whether they’ve actually had much impact. Seemed like business as usual to me last time, but friends say it’s getting harder to get drivers to stop.

Interesting re Trans-Dniester. Will it work?

Kolya – Apropos hitch-hiking: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7344381.stm

”Ger – The mayor and others have been trying to stop it. I’m not exactly sure whether… etc”
Thanks for that fh. Thats a pity. I’d like to think health and safety was the motivation for Luzhkovs intervention, but somehow I think there must be some vested interests involved. Time was I could put my hand out in Krylatskoe and get back to my gaff in Prospekt Vernadskogo 90R, that with my flaky Russian. Mind you, there are few enough foreigners out there who could actually pass for a Russian linguistically. FH/Doss -can ye do it? I paid the Russian price in to the Polytecnical Museum once, and whilst I like to think I conned him that I was Russian, I think the reality was the guy at the desk couldnt be bothered arguing with me.

The taxi situation reminds of one of Mike Averko’s arguments one time. He put down the delay in getting Dubrovka victims to hospital being due to phenomenal economic growth causing traffic problems:-) He managed to turn an utter disaster into an opportunity to plug Russia. You’ve got to hand it to him, hilarious.

When I was a student I hitchhiked everywhere cos we drank all our grants, but thats gone now in Ireland…you never see anyone hitching these days.(the drinking however has of course continued among our bright young hopes)

”Interesting re Trans-Dniester. Will it work?”

I was reading TTT afterwards and Smirnov seems as hell-bent as ever on independence. I also read a hilarious interview with him where he put Moscow’s cutting off of funds down to ”Russian governemnt economists believing we can manage ourselves”, something he was at pains to point out was not really the case. Sounds like Moscow couldnt give a shit anymore. So much for Slavic brotherhoods and Russocentric leanings. Looks like the Motherland would rather spend the money on useless bomber missions than help feed the PMR.

Yes, it’s really sad about the Italian woman. And more than likely some people will claim that she sort of asked for it or somehow deserved what she got for being too naive or idealistic.

Things obviously got better in Russia since I the last time I was there, which was during Yeltsin’s dark age. From what I recall, back then most of the gypsy taxi drivers were ethnic Russians. Times were obviously bad, though. I remember being driven by a medical doctor, a university professor, and by a jet fighter pilot. I ended up inviting the latter to my place and we had a long conversation. He was a young officer with very wide interests and great intellectual curiosity. He was also somewhat depressed and wanted to get out of the armed forces. He hoped to work as a pilot outside of Russia. His main complaints were first, that he could not afford to live on his pay, and second, that fighter pilots were getting very little flying time and all of them were noticing that their skills were deteriorating badly by lack of practice.

”He was also somewhat depressed and wanted to get out of the armed forces.”

Kolya this was a massive issue in the nineties. I knew one girl, whose father was a general, forcibly retired. He ended up in in ‘bezumnii don’ for a while, and he was one of thousands seemingly. Very sad. One minute heroes, next minute, nobodies with no job. Terrible.

“FH/Doss -can ye do it?”

If I pretended to be mute.

“Kolya this was a massive issue in the nineties. I knew one girl, whose father was a general, forcibly retired”

My ex-girlfriend’s dad was KGB (nothing high up) and according to her he wasn’t paid for months at a time in the early 90s.

Not paying your military and intelligence people = not smart.

Italian woman?

”If I pretended to be mute.”

Dont be modest. I’d say you can do it. Maybe not in an extended chat, but throwing out stock phrases in a short exchange perhaps? Mind you, thinking of the reverse case, I dont know of one Russian speaker friend here who could con us for a split second that he/she was Irish. It is hilarious how Russians pick up our accent and slang though:-)
Chris/Kolya/all you should have a look at TTT, very funny stuff. Blatant propoganda:-)

“FH/Doss -can ye do it?”

I’m told my accent is flawless but my vocab and grammar are disgraceful, as I never took formal lessons. So I can “pass” in a car or a shop or a restaurant situation, or over the phone. But if things move beyond chit chat I get to humiliate myself fairly swiftly.

Chris – the Italian woman Kolya refers to is a peacenik hitch-hiker found murdered in Turkey. From the BBC:

An Italian woman artist who was hitch-hiking to the Middle East dressed as a bride to promote world peace has been found murdered in Turkey.

She had said she wanted to show that she could put her trust in the kindness of local people.

“Chris/Kolya/all you should have a look at TTT, very funny stuff. Blatant propoganda:-)”

The Team Troll Tribune is not propaganda. It speaks truth to power!

“Maybe not in an extended chat, but throwing out stock phrases in a short exchange perhaps?”

Most salespeople in kiosks think I’m a Serb, so my accent is pretty obviously nonnative.

ivanov, I would like to join the chorus of thanks for the link to that hitchhiker’s guide to the post-Soviet galaxy (and beyond). His post on Transdniester is great, especially the photos (my favorite was this one).

As far as “passing” for Russian, I think the key to getting the accent down is learning the language before age 13-15 and using the language consistently. After that age it is very hard to get the accent down and be able to “pass” in any conversation involving more than a few phrases; and there are some re-pats who have issues with recognizable accents because, even though they learned Russian at an early age, they un-learned the accent at some point during their lives in a non-Russian environment.

By the way, it looks like Idov is not the only one for whom the zastoi comparison has contemporary resonance:

The gap between the rhetoric and real life is now so great that it even seems to me bigger than in the Brezhnev times, when speeches about the well-being of the Soviet people were delivered from the tribunes and people resentfully listened to all of this at empty refrigerators in Soviet kitchens.

Indeed, it is a cliche among radical liberals, like “Bush is a fascist” is among Western leftists.

Most Russians would consider equating the current period with the Brezhnev period to be a compliment to the former. It is widely considered to be a golden age.

Speaking of Leonid Ilych, I have a copy of his memoirs (actually Novaya Zemlya, Slovo o kommunistakh, and some other stuff). I wonder if he actually wrote them.

It’s ridiculous to speak of zastoi (stagnation) at a time when the Russian economy is growing faster than most in the West.

Speeches about the well-being of the Soviet people were delivered from the tribunes and people resentfully listened to all of this at empty refrigerators in Soviet kitchens.

Anyone who has been to Russia recently knows that this is an absurd comparison.

Owen and others, once again, Idov makes it perfectly clear in his article that he’s not writing about economic stagnation. He actually states that Russia’s economy is booming.

You’re right, that quote was from a Jamestown article. But what does “culturally stagnant” mean??

Russia has many vibrant cultural sectors:

Music – including their own version of American Idol, political rapper Ka4
Television – Nasha Russia; Dom 2, which is the longest running “reality” show in history; Soldaty, a kind-hearted, family series
Radio – Echo Moskvy, better than many of our stations
Internet – very active blogosphere
Film – good pop movies like Zhara, Piter FM

What makes this all the more laughable is that “culturally stagnant” was written by a person who heads a hip/edgy/cutting/whatever magazine about Russian culture!!!

As I have yet to read the article , I am speaking broadly than about this particular case, but I think that by “stagnation” what many people really mean is “the cultural consensus is not moving in the direction I want.”

Anyway I’m off to pack to catch a plane to LA in a few hours. Given that I am flying over the North Pole, if my life were an Edgar Rice Burroughs novel, I would wind up transported through the immense polar aperture in the Hollow Earth to do battle with Reptile Men.

I think Idov’s comparison with zastoi is not of substance but is more symbolic, more about the level of attitude. There is absolutely no question that both economically and culturally Russia is leaps and bounds beyond what zastoi was. Idov’s comments to reflected what I also have noticed in my 5 (about a month each) trips there in the last 4 years: political and social apathy. There is very little discussion of politics among people that have not made their opposition a job. And when I did encounter politics, a lot was repeating cliches from the media or rumour mills.

Another component that links current Russia to zastoi a bit is the cavalier attitude to community and social responsibility, including blatant disregard for rules (expressed or just implied socially) and even reason. On my first trip there an old friend picked me up in Pulkovo. We smoked in the car on the way and then I asked where the ashtray was. He told me to toss it out. Instead, I did find the ashtray (full of ash but no butts) and but out the cigarette there. Next thing he pulled the ashtray out and dumped it outside. Just a minor example I saw repeating over and over. Amount of trash surpasses even San Francisco’s Market Street.

No matter that lots of us were kitchen dissidents during zastoi, in general, even more advanced and critical never ventured beyond ideology of left leaning social democrats. The West used to think (and still does now) that unanimity was/is a product of ballot rigging and fraud. It was born off ideological homogeneity and to me that is the cultural zastoi I see in contemporary Russia. Pop-culture wise, Russia is so hip, Any Warhol отдыхает.