Putin’s Final Dog and Pony Show
By Sean at 14 February, 2008, 4:55 pm
Four hours and forty minutes. Two hours and six minutes of which were broadcast live on Russian TV. One thousand three hundred and sixty-four journalists. Over 100 questions from fifty-two reporters. Those are some heady stats. When the vozhd’ speaks, the media listens.
Putin appeared loose in his final showcase. Reuters described his performance as “mixed flirtatious banter with metaphors about snot and showed a gift for sarcastic brush-offs worthy of a stand-up comedian.” The snot references were to questions about his alleged hidden wealth and the hard man hours he put in as Prez. To the former he said that reports about his wealth were “rubbish . . . excavated from someone’s nose and then spread on those bits of paper”. To the latter, he said “Heads of state have no right to whine, or drool for any reason… If they are going to slobber and blow snot and say things are bad, bad, then that’s how it will be.”
One of my favorites was his response to Hillary Clinton saying he had no soul. “A state official must at least have brains,” he stuck back. Given how her Presidential bid is going, Putin might be on to something. He even gave a shout out to his “American partner” George W. Bush. “You have to make decisions that nobody else is in a position to make. They are not always pleasant decisions. It isn’t easy. Is it easy for George Bush? This is where the buck stops.” To questions asking him to guarantee the ruble’s stability he said, “What do you want? Do you want me to eat soil from a flower pot? Take a blood oath?” Jesus people, just because the man’s visage is hung all over Russia, doesn’t mean he’s God. Naive monarchism is so 19th century.
Indeed, Putin was not without humor or wit. Kommersant was even kind enough to pick out some of the his sure to be memorable aphorisms. Here’s the list.
“All these eight years I worked like a slave in a galley from morning to night.” (On his work as President)
“I don’t think that we need to sprinkle ashes on our heads and beat ourselves with chains to prove that everything is fine with us.” (On relations with Poland).
“Let them teach their own wives how to cook shchi!” (On international election monitors on the Russian presidential elections.)
“As we said during Soviet times: If you want to “bury” a person, you appoint him to agricultural work.” (On Dmitri Medvedev’s resolve and national projects)
“Don’t whine and blubber about every subject” (On the character of a president.)
“It’s not over until the fat lady sings.” (“Не говори гоп, пока не перепрыгнешь”) (On being named to the post of Prime Minister)
“What can a person without a visa say about Tchaikovsky’s music?” (On relations between Russia and the West)
“Everybody must hoe their area like Saint Francis, boom, boom, everyday.” (On the activities of ministers)
And if anyone can translate and explain the following to me, I’d appreciate it: “Как у нас в некоторых местах говорили, “шило в стенку и на боковую залечь”" (о возможности покинуть политику).
Putin wasn’t all just shits and giggles. He seemed annoyed at the repeated “third term” questions. Just take a look at the photo above. He looks like he’s reaching to rip someone’s heart from their chest.
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если шило – то это может быть поговорка сапожника.
Шило is the main tool and must be kept sharp. If you drive it into wall (wooden) and go to sleep (лечь на бок) – this might mean you don’t want to work anymore.
Do you know what шило is?
http://www.homeplumber.ru/instr/img/4_1.gif
You know, in print, the Putin swagger always just seems dismal. But he does have a way of delivering these little lines with that steady voice and increasingly shimmering scalp.
On the translation question, this is definitely a moment when mab is missed, no?
On the translation question, this is definitely a moment when mab is missed, no?
Indeed. Yeah, if I had the time, inserting video clips of him saying these would have been great.
I’m sure these are words of сапожник.
My father joked many times
“Мне бы срук свалить, а с ног они сами свалятся”.
A slogan of boot makers guild of his time.
Шило was a must tool for every man at least in the villages. I had one from my father and can подшивать валенки.
Any thoughts on the FT piece that Robert Amsterdam put up yesterday?
http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/02/the_west_is_no_enemy_of_the_ru.htm
It was unabashedly hostile to Putin, but to a non-economist like myself the figures and graphs in the article were persuasive in showing that Russia’s vaunted economic performance during the Putin years, when compared to other former communist countries of the area, are not that impressive at all. Russia’s followed a trajectory similar to those other countries, a substantial dip and then a sustained upswing. Russia reached its lowest point in 1998 and it started to go up since then–the growth started before Putin’s presidency. Compared to most of those neighboring post-communist countries, however, Russia’s economic expansion was fairly mediocre.
from my personal experience – Russia reached the deepest point in asshole in 1999-2000. From the point of stateless and economyless perspectives.
Maybe in terms of formal statistics the deepest hole was in 1998. BUT!
Who counted all this? There were NO statistics, NO real figures available. Black and dark grey markets are not easy to count… But easy to feel by you own ass.
Well 90-92 were the worst by any account. I have AmEx but could not buy milk for my son.
“Compared to most of those neighboring post-communist countries, however, Russia’s economic expansion was fairly mediocre.”
Who does Russia subsidize? Most of those neighboring post-communist countries, including the Baltic States. Who subsidized Russia? Nobody.
Throw in Nordic banks loaning the Baltics vast sums to sustain their collossal current account deficits (Estonia ~20% of GNP, Latvia ~31% of GNP, Lithuania ~19% of GNP), and it should come as no suprise that growth there is high.
Russia on the other hand, can pay her bills, and is putting money away for a rainy day.
“It was unabashedly hostile to Putin, but to a non-economist like myself the figures and graphs in the article were persuasive in showing that Russia’s vaunted economic performance during the Putin years, when compared to other former communist countries of the area, are not that impressive at all. ”
Given that Russia is full of illegal immigrants from Ukraine, Moldova, Uzbekistan, etc., I don’t believe this at all. Maybe if you compare it to Poland.
I think Poland should be also included in the list with Ukraina, Uzbekistsn etc. At least I see more Poles around me than ANY other less lucky guys.
In regard to the FT piece, what an embarrassing article for an otherwise good financial paper that tends not to whine. Wolf isn’t going to curry much favor with me by citing McFaul, Aslund “the distinguished scholar” and Lucas as authorities. It’s hard to get beyond the rhetoric of this piece to find the substance. “Proto-fascism”? Yawn.
I also love how he places their neoliberal policy–devaluation–as the origin of economic expansion. Yet another attempt to say the Washington Consensus worked. Good try.
This statement is also revealing:
“On the contrary, nothing would be more desirable than for a vibrant and self-confident Russian democracy to take its place in the world of western values. And, yes, that must include membership of Nato.”
Translated: We want Russia under American hegemony.
Personally, I don’t know what Wolf is complaining about. Capitalism in Russia seems to doing what it does best. A lot of wealth has been generated and most of it has been concentrated into a few hands. If I would read between the lines, I would say that Wolf is just jealous that those hands are mostly Russian.
I also love (at the same time as I am becoming more intolerant) to these marco discussions of economics where there aren’t any people. It’s as if the economy is a person in and of itself. Mystification at its highest form.
Wolf’s interpretation of those charts is highly manipulative
So in the first figure he compares Russia’s economic performance between 89-07 to some
EE countries, all were better than Russia with the exception of Ukraine, if he would have taken 99-07, only Estonia
has performed better than Russia and Estonia has been the best performing EE country out there
In the second figure Russia is compared with former SU republics. To
me it is highly questionable whether you can compare Russia’s real growth, whose GDP per capita is two, three or
even four times larger, with real growth of mostly tiny republics, some of them subsidized by the EU.
What stings me is the fact, that Armenia(large parts of Armenia’s economy is controlled by Russian state-owned firms) and Belarus, has
performed better than pro-western “democratic champions”, like Lithuania Latvia, Georgia and Ukraine, this seems to be inconsistent with
Wolf’s rant about democratic deficits in Russia and their impact on economic growth.
I suggest you read the comments on Wolf’s comment, though some are negligible, others are very insightful(dealing with Russia’s debt and fiscal policy and a comparison to Saudi Arabia) http://blogs.ft.com/wolfforum/2008/02/why-putins-rule.html#comments
eh I meant of course two three or four times smaller GDP per capita in former SU republics than in Russia
As I wrote, the piece was unabashedly hostile to Putin. I was wondering, though, about the economic data the article used. It clearly indicated that compared to other post-communist countries in the area Russia’s economic performance is not at all that impressive. Although not a Putin fan, even I was surprised.
On the other hand, I’m not surprised when public perceptions lag behind the data–that’s quite common. For example (and I wrote about this before), in the 1990s Americans were still complaining about rising crime rates at a time when data showed that crime was already on its way down for a couple of years or more.
“I suggest you read the comments on Wolf’s comment, though some are negligible, others are very insightful(dealing with Russia’s debt and fiscal policy and a comparison to Saudi Arabia) http://blogs.ft.com/wolfforum/2008/02/why-putins-rule.html#comments”
Thanks for the info, Conformist. I only read the article as posted in Robert Amsterdarm’s blog, I didn’t go to the FT site. I’ll check it out.
I think one sort of obvious problem in these comparisons is sheer differences in size. Latvia is Riga, plus the area around Riga. A proper comparison would not be with Russia, but with Moscow oblast.
Anecdotally and therefore not wotth very much, I have never seen more panhandlers anywhere in the world than in Riga. I was really surprised.
about shilo (шило).
I read Putin’s words again – and I’m 100% sure he meant what I said in the first place.
About шило ivanov’s completely correct. since it is a pointed article with a round handle, the standard way of stowing it is to drive it into a piece of wood. Wooden wall is good.
As for the FT article, it is spot on. All the grandeur of economic statistics will fall down as soon as hydrocarbon revenues are taken out. There is an understandable desire to cloud things and compare Russia with oil/gas appendages while including other much more liberal spheres of economy that has done a great deal to move Russia; but when it is compared to the Ukraine that does not have much in terms of raw natural resources, then Russia’s oil and gas revenues are happily counted without making a distinction. What if we take Russia’s oil and gas industry and compare it to Qatar, Norway or Kuwait, and compare Poland’s agriculture with Russia’s.
By creating the super-industry monopolies Putin for all intends and purposes recreated late feudal state where these assets and not land are owned by Boyars. With all the inefficiencies and corruption to follow.
I also think that comparison with Mussolini is very appropriate. Russia is a fascist state (not Nazi, fascist in its initial Italian meaning: an off-shoot of socialism)
Translated: We want Russia under American hegemony.
This got to be one of the most ridiculous things I have heard you say, Sean. Are all NATO members under American hegemony? UK, Turkey? Spain? All that guy was saying is that capitalism makes people and nations freer and wealthier. That’s why it would be good for Russia. Your anti-capitalism just jumped out too fast.
Unfortunately over the last several years interests of Russia have been completely substituted with interests of Putin Inc. Is it in the interests of Russian people to have a society run by unrestrained and uncontrolled bunch of thugs, completely corrupt with lawlessness and bribery? Even Don Medvedev have been talking about legal nihilism lately. But, he has just as much or a clue as Putin does – his answer was according to RFE/RL a new state TV channel Law TV. Putin’s siloviki (and I still think that “thugs” is the best translation) made it to the top and are completely unrestrained. He can not control them anymore even if he wished.
I think one sort of obvious problem in these comparisons is sheer differences in size. Latvia is Riga, plus the area around Riga. A proper comparison would not be with Russia, but with Moscow oblast.
That would hardly be a proper comparison, considering that Moscow sucks in a huge chunk of wealth generated in the whole country. Moscow is the most expensive capital because most of the country is dirt poor by reasonable standards.
Are all NATO members under American hegemony? UK, Turkey? Spain?
You’re joking, right? Well, the US keeps military personnel in each of those countries. So yes.
I wonder. How many NATO members (or any other country) have permanent bases within US territory?
“Moscow is the most expensive capital ”
You’re funny. We’ve been through this before. Moscow is the most expensive capital for visiting Western businesspeople who want to stay in posh hotels. It is not for native Muscovites.
You’re funny. We’ve been through this before. Moscow is the most expensive capital for visiting Western businesspeople who want to stay in posh hotels. It is not for native Muscovites.
Sure. Of course. There is an abundance of regular inexpensive hotels for modest regular business travelers. And retail prices aren’t higher then those in Europe, not to mention US, on almost everything from food to cars. After all, only posh foreigners visit department stores and supermarkets in Moscow. And that does not even account for the price vs GDP per capita ratio.
Capitalism in Russia seems to doing what it does best.
Which is: improving the lives of ordinary Russians year after year and creating a genuine middle class.
Which is: improving the lives of ordinary Russians year after year and creating a genuine middle class.
Agreed. The question is: What is the Russian middle class?
You’re joking, right? Well, the US keeps military personnel in each of those countries. So yes.
NATO was a European construct, created specifically to ensure that the US committed military and personnel to Europe. They were invited in. An odd definition of hegemony, one which probably isn’t found on the pages of any decent history book.
The question is: What is the Russian middle class?
I’m not sure I could define the whole lot very well. But I could easily point out hundreds upon hundreds of Russians who could be described as middle class. My wife is probably one of them.
Hegemony is always exercised through a calculation of force and consent. Rule only through dominance is not hegemony.
Even conservatives like Niall Ferguson recognize that America is hegemonic. He just thinks its a good thing. At least he’s honest. See this article from 2004 in the Wall Street Journal. He provides an interesting analysis of US hegemony’s decline.
My ex-girlfriend defined middle-class Muscovites as people who didn’t take the metro. When means I’m lumpen, I suppose.
Personally off the cuff I would define middle class as having “reasonable” amounts of disposable income. I don’t think that’s very complicated!
In general Tim is right, I think. That Russia is experiencing rapid growth of a fairly sizeable “middle class” is undeniable, this underpinning the consumption boom, though ideological unpleasane to some people. It is also true that the living standards of the entire population are increasing, with the exception (if memory serves) of the bottom 20% stratum.
“after all, only posh foreigners visit department stores and supermarkets in Moscow.”
Muscovites without means shop at street markets. They do not go to department stores and supermarkets. Those are middle-class venues, like the ones in Volgograd, Kazan, and elsewhere.
Not to mention that most Muscovites (probably a decreasing number) have never paid rent in their lives.
Hegemony is always exercised through a calculation of force and consent. Rule only through dominance is not hegemony.
Even conservatives like Niall Ferguson recognize that America is hegemonic.
You’ve shifted the argument. America could be described as hegemonic with its enormous financial and cultural dominance. But that’s not what you said.
You initially cited the US stationing troops in NATO countries as being an example of American hegemony. This betrays a complete lack of knowledge of the beginnings, development, and overall history of NATO.
”My ex-girlfriend defined middle-class Muscovites as people who didn’t take the metro. When means I’m lumpen, I suppose.”
Its a funny thing, inspite of having the best public transport system on the planet, the minute Muscovites make enough money they either buy a car or hire a driver. I’ve always been baffled at how Russians would prefer to sit in traffic than use the metro. God knows how many PAs and office birds I’ve met who have drivers bringing them to work. I LOVE the metro, and am amazed at the Russian’s bad attitude towards it. Yes I know crowds, hangover smells etc, but what about the talent? There’s more hot ass in a metro car at rush hour than in the whole of Paris Fashion Week.
As for hegemony, I’ll take American before Russian any day of the week. I refer you to the article in the current eXile about those murders in the Urals. Good grief, the Russian mentality towards human life is firmly rooted in the middle ages, and whatever America’s sins, I’d rather a US world to a Russian one any day.
Man, Ger, you need to spend some time in Southeast DC — or not. The States are rife with Death Porn.
Actually, you don’t even have to go to Southeast DC. A friend of mine in northeast got shot at through his window while he was exercising in his bikini briefs in broad daylight. His theory is that some passing gangbangers thought he was gay.
”Man, Ger, you need to spend some time in Southeast DC — or not. The States are rife with Death Porn”
That is genuinely distressing. Years ago I saw a documentary about snuff on Channel 4, which was once a great station in Britain(before Jamie fucking Oliver and middle class dinner-parties took over). It was mind-numbing and I was disturbed for a long time afterward(I am a pussy, absolutely).
Fair enough -maybe lets have an IRISH world instead)!
Well, I didn’t mean snuff films, I meant the eXile Death Porn column.
If I was going to pick a country that epitomized law, order, and respect for life, it would not be the gun-happy, high-murder-rate United States with its well-armed gangs. Maybe Iceland. 
Before somebody gets in after me on this, yes the US cops are much better than the Russian ones. Then again, Russia doesn’t have much of a gang problem in the US sense. Which is interesting now that I think of it.
”Well, I didn’t mean snuff films, I meant the eXile Death Porn column.”
Phew! Bad and all as that column is, its not as bad I guess as snuff. BRRRR!
”If I was going to pick a country that epitomized law, order, and respect for life”
Actually Ireland is not bad at all in this respect. That said its easy for Ireland and Iceland, small countries, easier to manage.
Some Irish language for your linguitic enjoyment:
http://www.learnirish.ie/doctuir-ghra/
Doctuir ghra is ‘doctor love’.
The murder rate in the US is much too high. One of the reasons there are so many murders is that guns are fairly easily available and Americans, in general, are stupidly enamored with them. Having said that, Russia’s murder rate is much higher than the American one–over five times higher. In other words, on a per capita basis, for every person who is murdered in the US, five people are murdered in Russia.
You’ve shifted the argument. America could be described as hegemonic with its enormous financial and cultural dominance. But that’s not what you said.
Why should I waste my time elaborating on my views of hegemony, class or Marxism for you, Tim? Especially when it’s clear all I’m going to get in return are insults and told I don’t know anything anyway.
Sure. Those are overwhelmingly domestic violence cases though, overwhelmingly involving alcohol, and points to a serious alcohol problem rather than “lack of respect for human life.”
I really don’t like these kind of sweeping, flippant (no offense Ger) explanations for things. One, you’re not going to find much respect for human life among the Crips and Bloods or in Mississippi in 1950. Two, I hate to sound like someone I won’t mention, but this comment only seems to occur in the cases of Slavic peoples and (more rarely) China. Try using “Africans have no respect for human life” as an explanation for genocide in Rwanda and see what happens to your career. For that matter, “Germans have no respect for human life” wouldn’t even go over well. Three, this supposed respect tends to vanish rapidly when the supposedly more civilized society is under stress (cf. interwar Germany, or any country during wartime. I don’t think anybody was showing respect for human life on the fields of France in 1916.).
”I really don’t like these kind of sweeping, flippant (no offense Ger) explanations ”
None taken) But I still think you’re wrong. The Russians DO NOT CARE what happens when they are not themselves immediately or personally affected. The crux of that eXile article – and they hit the nail on the head -is that nobody cares in Russia. And nobody does. In the piece the girl who escaped and her mother had no notion whatsover of trying to help the cops. And yes, I know the cops are crap there anyway, but thats not the point. Dubrovka, Beslan, the fighter-bombing of Grozny – these incidents would simply NOT BE ACCEPTABLE in any sort of decent society, and I include the US in that, for all its problems. Using Kolya’s maths alone, Russia has five times the murder rate – its not all down to booze. Its down to a public disregard for the lives of their own citizens that allows that to happen. The Russians can be barbarians at times, like something from the middle ages, and if you cant see that, and feel fit to use WWI(!) as a counter example, then I think maybe you’ve been in Moscow too long)
Ger, the US bombs places all the time, with little negative domestic reaction. What exactly do you think the US reaction would be to a perceived terrorist state on its border? It would quickly be inhabited by melted glass.
The eXile piece is on one event, as spun by the eXile.
Now that I think of it, I think WWI is a very good example about how quickly people dump their supposed values when they perceive a threat. And it was so interpreted by large numbers of European intellectuals at the time.
The Russians can be barbarians at times, like something from the middle ages…
Jesus! “The Russians?” All Russians? Did someone do some ground-breaking research I haven’t heard about?
Everyone anywhere CAN be a barbarian at times. If they’re scared or (as you acknowledge) the cops aren’t people you would normally go to for help or … all sorts of reasons.
People get mugged in the street in NY, London, Paris AND Moscow, and bypassers avert their eyes. And Dublin too.
”People get mugged in the street in NY, London, Paris AND Moscow, and bypassers avert their eyes. And Dublin too”
Yes, they can. But not 20 people, and not be raped/disembowelled and ditched in a field, and then for there to be NO public outcry. Thats what I’m on about. The Russians dont care. It is their attitude, and the amazing failure of this kind of story to even raise eyebrows nationally in the press, that makes me compare them to something from the middle ages. No, Russians would rather read about or watch on tv Putin putting it up to the Yanks about the missile shield, the great hero of Russia, ura! then shrug their shoulders when upwards of 20 young girls lose their lives in horrid fashion. If one girl went missing in Ireland or Britain, the whole country would be asking where she is and it would be all over the papers, at least at the start. In Russia? No. A fucking meat grinder is what the place is.
FH,
I know what I’m saying is hardcore. But I believe it to be true. Nobody is saying all Russians would carry out such heineous crimes, not at all, but their attitude – its outside my apartment so it doesnt affect me – is like something from the middle ages. If a fuck-up like the end of the Dubrovka siege happened in this part of the world, people would be fired and a public enquiry launched. In Russia? No. And before anyone calls me a Russophobe, I’m not.
“But not 20 people, and not be raped/disembowelled and ditched in a field, and then for there to be NO public outcry.”
If there was NO public outcry, then how come I heard about it in all the main newspapers? It was Ogonyok’s main story. This is like saying there was no public outcry about the last dozen or so US school shootings. Of course there was, and no amount of a shock journalism newspaper declaring there wasn’t makes it true.
“If a fuck-up like the end of the Dubrovka siege happened in this part of the world, people would be fired and a public enquiry launched.”
I’m still waiting for the people to be fired who ignored those “Al-Qaeda plans to attack the US with planes” reports.
”If there was NO public outcry, then how come I heard about it in all the main newspapers? It was Ogonyok’s main story.”
I stand corrected – i believed the eXile version of events, which didnt mention that – it led one to believe the story was hardly carried at all. But apart from that, it would be front page news, the main story in ALL the papers anywhere civilised, and ran for ages. Not in Russia. Again, life is cheap there.
”I’m still waiting for the people to be fired who ignored those “Al-Qaeda plans to attack the US with planes” reports.”
If it happened here, or in Britain, people would be fired, or rather, there would have been proper medical care outside the theatre in the first place. The Russians were more concerned about killing the Chechens than looking after their citizens afterward. Which is the behaviour of country in which human life is of little regard.
Damn. Gotta go to a meeting. But this is just plain wrong, a total misreading of ordinary human beings in Russia. I don’t care much about Marxist theory or US hegemony or US=bad. The morning after Dubrovka I went to a meeting at a major company, and I swear the whole office — management down to PAs — were in tears. The CEO gently asked if we could postpone for a couple of days. During Beslan I was on Skype with friends — Russians — throughout and we were reacting in exactly the same ways as I. In total shock.
Have to go. More later.
Kolya, I doubt you can proove your words
“Having said that, Russia’s murder rate is much higher than the American one–over five times higher. In other words, on a per capita basis, for every person who is murdered in the US, five people are murdered in Russia.”
Also not clear why so happy humans like US citizens are shooting each other in such a barbaric manner?
“If it happened here, or in Britain, people would be fired, or rather, there would have been proper medical care outside the theatre in the first place.”
I doubt it. The people who fucked up would have covered their asses. The Brits are good at that. Just look at Blair.
”I doubt it. The people who fucked up would have covered their asses. The Brits are good at that. Just look at Blair. ”
No, I doubt that – if so many Brits had been killed because of a fucked up medical operation afterwards, heads would role, possibly even Blair’s. No doubt about it.
”Damn. Gotta go to a meeting. But this is just plain wrong, a total misreading of ordinary human beings in Russia.”
FH, take your time, I’ll respond to what you say whenever you comment. I’m sorry, but that’s my reading of what happened. I saw no tears except on tv outside the hospitals. A few people were a bit shocked alright, but my point isnt even that – it was forgotten days later and no public enquiry happened, nobody paid for the fuck-ups, tiny compensation for the victims. Nobody cared. That is a society that doesnt care. Like I said, middle-ages. And I’m not anti-Russian. I’m calling it as I see it.
First, I want to say that I disagree with GER’s generalization about Russian disregard of human life. We should not confuse the state’s indiference for such things with the individual people themselves.
Ivanov, as I said, the murder rate in the US is much too high. I certainly think it’s a disgrace. For example, on a per capita basis, for every 43 murders in the US, there are 17 murders in France, 15 in Canada, 9 in Ireland and 5 in Japan.
But I’m not saying anything controversial in stating that Russia’s murder rate is much higher than in the US. I did erroneously say that the Russian murder rate is over five times higher. I just checked my calculator. It is is 4.67 times higher. Once again, on a per capita basis, for every 43 murders in the US, there are 201 murders in Russia (and 324 murders in Jamaica and 618 murders in Colombia).
Russia also has a fairly high suicide rate. Per capita, for every American male that commits suicide, four Russian males commit suicice. For every American woman who commits suicide, three Russian women commit suicide.
There are many sources in which you can find this sort of info. A site with plenty of interesting statistical information is NationMaster. Here is their link for the murder rates:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
You can check this link World Health Organization link for suicide info:
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/
I must say that it is quite a coincidence that murder and suicide have come up just as I’m going over documents on Komsomol gangs and suicides in the 1920s for my current diss chapter. I just thought I would share.
”First, I want to say that I disagree with GER’s generalization about Russian disregard of human life. We should not confuse the state’s indiference for such things with the individual people themselves.”
Fair enough Kolya. I am letting my disdain for the behaviour of the government carry into anger against the Russians in general, which is a bit unfair and innacurate.
For the curious, here is Wikipedia’s entry on suicide rates by nation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rates
According to those figures, only Lithuania (Gold) and Belarus (Silver) were ahead of Russia (Bronze) in this competition. I wonder if there are any reliable (well, sort of reliable) statistics that go back one hundred as well as fifty years to see whether those figures shifted a lot. Was suicide a problem in the 1920s, Sean?
After a quick glance, it is interesting that places like GER’s Ireland, the UK, Canada, Australia, Iceland and Greece have BOTH low murder rates and fairly low suicide rates. Happy countries?
Why should I waste my time elaborating on my views of hegemony, class or Marxism for you, Tim? Especially when it’s clear all I’m going to get in return are insults and told I don’t know anything anyway.
You are making statements of fact which are simply not true, which can be a result of either deliberate lying or ignorance. I charitably assumed it was the latter. If you don’t want to waste your time justifying your erronous statements, then don’t.
Kolya,
I’m not being a smartass, but Ireland is definitely a fairly happy country(I live here), and I have been to Australia and they seem to be quite happy too) The quality of life there is very high indeed.
I believe you, Irishman! I have never been to Ireland, but would love to visit. I almost went there when during my hippie days–long time ago–I lived in England (primarily as a squatter in London) for a few months.
As to Australia, my brother-in-law and his family have been living right in the middle of it (Alice Springs) for about ten years now. They love it. He was going to try it for two years. But then, after living in Maryland (one of the states with the highest population density in the US) and working long hours in the heavily urbanized DC area, he (and his family) fell in love with the lifestyle of Alice Springs as well as with Australia in general. One day we’ll visit them.
Fair enough Kolya. I am letting my disdain for the behaviour of the government carry into anger against the Russians in general, which is a bit unfair and innacurate.
First, an apology for having responded to your generalization with my own, which was from the particulars of individuals I happen to have encountered and who, for all I know, may be my friends because we think alike. Whatever you or I may have experienced proves nothing about Russians generally. (Thanks Kolya.)
Nonetheless, I think it’s pretty obviously unlikely that Russians are less sensitive than “we” are to the fate of others. I understand how one could be misled into believing so. The existence of eXile’s venerable Death Porn column neatly illustrates one of them. Originally the column represented a kind of ex-pat shock/horror reaction to mid-90s Russian TV’s love of police film footage, the bloodier the better. Horrible stuff, but you can still see lots of it recycled today on cable TV in the west. There was an audience in Russia and there’s an audience here. Go figure.
As for the behaviour of the state – well, yes, that is a different matter. But it always leads to tit for tat historiography matching every alleged instance of Russian state tolerance for human tragedy with an example of US or western brutality. They bombed Grozny to bits and we bombed Baghdad. They gassed innocents in the theatre and failed to treat them afterwards, but we’ve left live ordinance and depleted uranium munitions littered across Afghanistan and Iraq for 8-year-olds to play with. Russians are killing themselves and each other in quantity. So are Americans. Their chess killer vs our high school massacres. Their Yukos. Our Enron. Etc. Etc.
No, in fairness FH and Kolya, I went too far, and I shouldnt have let that article get to me, but I did. I was just numb, and in the provinces of Ireland, such scale of murder is just incomprehensible. The papers would be on about for 100 years. I tied that in with Dubrovka and Beslan and Grozny, and in fairness ordinary Russians didnt cause that. But I do wish they would at least grumble a bit more about this stuff, and tie in incompetence at the top with the deaths that have occurred. In fact I shouldnt have read the article at all – I’m very sqeamish and never read it while in Moscow.
Indeed Kolya you’d be most welcome -and FH or CD or anyone else -to visit our fine country. Let me know if you’re coming and you’ll have a roof over your head here besplatno. Funny, I knew a girl from Dublin – filthy rich unlike me -who squated for more than a year in London and had the time of her life. Seems there’s loads of unused old houses full to the brim with Paddies, Brits, Yanks and every kind of foreigner. People get up and actually go to work from these squats! I thought it was very interesting.
Australia is amazing. I only spent a few days in Sydney, which Aussies consider their most difficult city, and it left London, Dublin and Moscow in the dust. Brilliant place. The big difference I think is that you dont have to put yourself into massive, life-long debt to have good life there (that is if you’re a poor chemist like me) In Ireland, you have to. I spent a year in NZ as well, and though a good country, I couldnt have stayed – its just too far and complicated to get home from, much worse than Australia.
Actually – I’m an Irishman, Irishman. Well, sort of. Brit-born but a proud Irish passport holder, courtesy of a Dublin mum (and a persistent devotion to the place). I’d move in a minute but my Russian wife — also an Eire passport holder of course — insists I tough it out in London for the cash to get the kid through Oxford (despite my own preference for Trinity). Six months to go.
We must stop this Irish invasion in the bud!
Hey, every time the IRA decided to blow up a pub, did the entirety of the Irish race don sackcloth and ashes, cradle their heads in the hands and call out, “we are vile! vile! human life had been trodden underfoot by our wretched seed! Woe! Woe!”?
Well Chris I’m afraid after that comment I wont be supporting your application for an Irish passport:-) But the vast majority of Paddies did not support what happened in the 70s and 80s, and are actually ashamed of it. Dark times indeed. And most certainly our state did not fighter-bomb parts of here or Britain, nor would not have had proper medical care outside something like Dubrovka. I dont think I’m wrong when I say that both our state and the Brits have a regard for human life that is light years ahead of that of the Russian government, and maybe the Yanks too. I re-qualify my statement; the Russian state are brutes, animals, like something from the middle ages. And I sincerely believe our governments here would not behave in such a brutal manner, faced with the same grief.
FH – funny that!) My missus(tozhe Russkaya) wants ours to go to TCD in Dublin. I’ve tried to explain to her not to expect too much from my side of the gene pool, but she reckons her input alone should be enough for them to get into TCD)In fairness you are a Paddy, do you come over often? I’ve often thought about heading back to Moscow, and its a quandry facing quite a few Russians who live here – is it worth going back. Its hard to know. I’m not sure I could live without hurling(the sport, not puking!)
Does Ireland even have fighter-bombers to bomb things with?
In addition to the IRA, I would like to note that Ireland has yet to make a public apology for the existence of Bono; in fact, Ireland has yet to do anything to even try to rein him in. Sinead O’Connor is no compensation. I rest my case.
”Does Ireland even have fighter-bombers to bomb things with?”
Details, Chris, details:-)
‘Tis not a detail! Ireland has no fighter-bombers to bomb things with because Ireland is an island with no enemies. (Unless you count Britain.) There are no external threats to the integrity of Ireland.
Wait and see what happens once an external threat arises.
I did not even know Boyzone was Irish. The list of crimes climbs ever higher! Joyce was right — Ireland truly is a forsaken land!
Several years ago I met a young woman (Irish mother, Russian father) whose mother had had Irish-Soviet citizenship. I didn’t know that was even possible.
”Tis not a detail! Ireland has no fighter-bombers to bomb things with because Ireland is an island with no enemies. (Unless you count Britain.) There are no external threats to the integrity of Ireland.
Wait and see what happens once an external threat arises.”
No Chris. We are neither the USA nor Russia, and I dont believe for a second, even if we had the gear, that we would act with such brutality, especially to our own people. We would have informed the medical staff outside if we’d had a Dubrovka, for example. And the Yanks would have as well. No, the Russian goverment are brutes, have scant regard for the safety of their own citizens, and nothing will convince me otherwise. And Britain isnt our foe anymore – we beat them in 1921:-)
”Several years ago I met a young woman (Irish mother, Russian father) whose mother had had Irish-Soviet citizenship. I didn’t know that was even possible”
I didnt either! I see an episode of zhdi menya years ago where an Irish communist who lived in Moscow was reunited with a Russian woman he’d fell in love with during WWII. He’d spent all his adult life in the USSR/Russia and still had our accent. I dont think Ireland had any special relationship with the Soviets, though they allegedly wanted to supply guns and weapons to the IRA in the 70s/80s. I dont think it ever happened though. Of course our Labour party did spend plenty of time in Moscow, which was well publicised here.
More Irish crimes: Colin Farrell. The Corrs. Riverdance. The list goes on!
“We are neither the USA nor Russia, and I dont believe for a second, even if we had the gear, that we would act with such brutality, especially to our own people.”
That’s what everybody says, until they do. Cf. a certain country that was the center of world intellectual civilization, science, philosophy, art, and culture before a certain Austrian guy with a moustache showed up.
The girl’s father had been some kind of correspondent with the Soviet press, Pravda I think, in Dublin.
Re Ireland’s air force — it’s so small they call it an air corps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Defence_Forces#Air_Corps
The budget could get lost under Misc. in what Deripaska declares for tax purposes.
I’m liking the place more and more.
But this list of “artistes” you’re compiling together poses strategic risks. One more boy band and intelligent people world-wide might define them as WMD.
I try to get at least to Dublin once or twice a year, but I’m well overdue on that at the moment. My dad (a Welshman alas) went to TCD and I’ve spent a lot of time there and at his old haunts (ie, I didn’t get to know him very well when he was alive). I’ll drop a note into a future thread when I’m planning another trip.
Regarding the IRA I’ve never fully understood the attitude in the south. We lived in Belfast for some time when I was a kid, before things started blowing up and before the Old IRA split into the officials and the provos, etc. But even then my mother’s family in the South never talked about this stuff, and still don’t. My grandfather was involved at some vague level in the Twenties, and you can guess how much an 8-year-old would want to hear about that! But they never talked.
Re Russian re-pats: We go back to Russia a lot, but my wife would never want to return permanently. I love the place. She doesn’t.
One more thing — could we NOT say anything unkind here about Andrea Corr please? Or Sinead for that matter? (Saying she’s loony probably doesn’t count, right?)
Ger, thanks for the kind invite! This weekend my cousin (who is really torn on the question whether to go back to Russia or settle in the US) and his teenage son are driving up from Long Island to our place in Vermont. There is some good skiing not far from our home. After their visit we are free, so, Ger, my wife, daughter and I will hop on the plane and stay with you in Ireland for a few days. Thanks!
Joking, joking. Don’t worry. Some day we’ll visit Ireland. Well, that’s truly my hope. But it will not happen soon–at least not in 2008.
It’s interesting that so many non-Irish have genuine feelings of warm good will towards Ireland.
[Shouldn't Sean change the name of this blog to "Sean's Ireland (and occasionally Russia) Blog"?]
As for the IRA, the problem is people took sides in the civil war, and there are still families who dont talk to each other over it, and even within families themselves brothers/sisters not speaking to each other for years and years. Even in my own house, my old fella is pro De Valera, whilst I’m in favour of Collins. As for the modern IRA, people were just afraid of them – fuck with them and they’d get you, Irish or otherwise. They made the Chechens look like amateurs. There were safe houses all over the South, but if you spoke out, you could get a hiding yourself. I have always detested the IRA, indeed most people my age have, and our police now have astoundingly draconian powers to arrest any dissidents – possession of leaflets is even enough. It looks like the country has finally moved on. Thank God.
”Re Russian re-pats: We go back to Russia a lot, but my wife would never want to return permanently. I love the place. She doesn’t.”
Its the same for me. Mind you, I’m wondering now if I’d be able for Moscow anymore – life is much more relaxing here. Moscow wears down the soul, well mine anyway. Its probably cos I’m a villager here, big-city people probably arent upset by it.
I’m with you on Sinead – in fact on her day she’s one of the best looking women in the world I believe, and a match for any Russian. Sadly she doesnt have too many of those days! Andrea Corr I saw once – she was at our local HMV releasing a new album and spent all her time taking the piss out of her sisters in front of everyone -am not sure she’s the nicest in the world. But she IS easy on the eye!) I love TCD, even though I wasnt within an asses roar of getting the grades to attend there. The whole atmosphere there and the pubs around it are just cool. Its a special place.
Kolya, I said you’re more than welcome and you are:-) I’m not unique in that – the Irish always have open doors, its just something bred into us. I cant count the number of times when as a starving student in the Midlands I was fed by kind classmates mothers. During the summer last year, my sister and her husband picked up two German hitchikers, brought them home, fed them, gave them a bed and brought them to the train station next morning. This behaviour is totally normal in Ireland – not in the least bit unusual. And in fairness the Russians arent bad either. How many times I practically needed wheelchair assistance to leave Russian flats after stupendous meals. Russians would empty the flat of every morsel to feed guests. You live in Vermont? Very nice. Every time I hear it mentioned on tv or in film there’s usually a reference to its beauty.
”It’s interesting that so many non-Irish have genuine feelings of warm good will towards Ireland.”
I think its our relaxed attitude and ability to talk (too much?) to anyone. And culturally the country has punched far above its weight internationally. I’ve been to the Moscow Paddy’s Day parade several times and what amazed me is how the Russians bought into the whole thing. Drinking Guinness and having parties, just like us. Fantastic stuff. And bizarrely, I once heard on the radio in New Zealand, quite randomly, a presenter say in reference to some music he was playing ”The Russians, like the Irish, are prone to melancholy, and to partying”:-)
Even in my own house, my old fella is pro De Valera, whilst I’m in favour of Collins.
Yeah, I’ve a feeling there’s something like that going on amongst my relatives. Old divisions long suppresed and an eagerness to keep em that way.
Provos (and their Ulster counterparts) were just mobsters. When I lived in the states, I was forever being wierded out by ordinary folks who proudly gave money to them. Has anyone ever tried to do an accounting on how much American dosh wound up in Army hands (or Canadian dosh in UDA hands)?
Moscow really is stressful, I agree.
(That comment is intended to soothe Kolya’s worries about us running off at the mouth about Ireland too much.
We could consider adopting it as a permanent disclosure note for all non-Russia discussion. Like Slate with its “Disclosure: Slate is owned by the Washington Post Co.”)
Kolya, I knew that site and its “statistics”
It is as “accurate” as Soviet one. And I’m nut surprised at all that you mentioned it
“There are many sources in which you can find this sort of info. A site with plenty of interesting statistical information is NationMaster. Here is their link for the murder rates:”
In fact the very first comment to it – from Columbia – shows my point. 61 by NationMaster against 39 by Columbian criminal expert.
“Wilson Barón Calderón
27th March 2006
This figures are not updated, because Colombia has 18.111 homicides last year (2005), which means 39 per 100.000 inhabitants.
I`m the Head of Criminological Investigation Center of Judicial Police, the office in charge of prepare all about criminal reports in Colombia.
If you want, I can send the Colombian Crime report 2005, so you can update all your figures about my country.”
Ger, I know you mean it. Thanks again.
Although this is so often repeated that by now it’s a stereotype, it’s interesting how often visitors to Russia remark about the contrast between the severe and dour “street face” of Russians with their warm, cheerful and welcoming “home face”.
Unfortunately too many travelers don’t get to see Russians in the privacy of their homes, so they only experience the unfriendly “street face”. Well, I’m talking about pre-Putin Russia, maybe the streets are a warmer place now.
Ivanov, the whole point of my comment is that even though the murder rate in the US is much too high, the murder rate in Russia is substantially higher. If you don’t want to believe that, well, don’t believe it.
According to a Russian government agency (Федеральная служба государственной статистики), in 2006 the murder rate in Russia was 20.2 (because of rounding this is actually a tiny bit higher than the NationaMasters figure). The 2006 US rate is 4.3, and the rate for Ireland is a low 0.95 (all this figures are for 100,000 people per year).
I guess you don’t trust the numbers of this agency, but here is the link just in case (very last line of the table):
http://www.gks.ru/bgd/regl/b07_13/IssWWW.exe/Stg/d01/04-27.htm
Their numbers say that in 1995 the rate was 30.8. Didn’t find any numbers between 96 and 99, but by 2,000 the rate went down to 28.2, it started to rise again and it was 30.7 in 2002, then it started to go down and it was 20.2 in 2006.
Once again, though, the main point is that the murder rate in Russia is considerably higher than the American one, and the American murder rate is much higher than the Irish one.
Kolya: [Shouldn’t Sean change the name of this blog to “Sean’s Ireland (and occasionally Russia) Blog”?]
A joke, I know, but I have wondered at times. We are, some of us, stunningly insensitive to what our host here actually writes. Sean is — umm, flattery alert: the overly sensitive should look away now — without question one of the brightest observers of the Russia scene, and not just in the blogosphere. The piece way up there at the top of this thread is a fine bit of journalism. And here Ger and I are discussing the Republic of Ireland air corps — two planes and some choppers — and college pubs in Dublin. I’m half expecting Robert Harneis to segue to Kosovo any minute now. In fact, he’d have me well beat for relevance.
I’m going to reform. Moving to the Kagarlistky item as of now to discuss the Russian labor movement. My Welsh grandfather was a labor leader in coal pits. Oops.
Columbians have no respect for human life! Arrest the murderous monster Shakira!
“As for the IRA, the problem is people took sides in the civil war, and there are still families who dont talk to each other over it, and even within families themselves brothers/sisters not speaking to each other for years and years.”
You think just maybe something like this might be the reason for Russians’ conflicted views on Stalin?
You think just maybe something like this might be the reason for Russians’ conflicted views on Stalin?
Of course. Everyone WAS compromised. That’s why rule of law and an independent (and competent, an adjective seldom mentioned) judiciary are so important now.
What’s your reasoning as to cause and effect there, fh? I’m not sure what your line of thought is.
Indeed Chris you’re probably correct in the comparison of effect with Ireland and the USSR, but the causes were a bit different. Certainly nobody talks about this stuff really even now and I’ve had blazing rows with my old fella over it (De Valera sent condolences to Nazi Germany when Hitler died, a fact I and many Irish people simply cannot forgive him for). We also believe he caused Collins’ death. The causes were simply people on different sides in the Civil War. Like Stalin’s USSR though, this was used at a local level to sort out petty differences e.g. a cuckold killing his wife’s lover in the name of the War, or fighting over a bit of land. You might try and see ‘The Wind That Shakes The Barley’, a Pamme D’Or winning film that whilst over-the-top in its anti-Brit tone, does I think accurately reflect the kind of divisions in Ireland at the time.
FH -your comments about our, ahem, ‘air force’ are hilarious. I wish we’d buy a few MiGs and Sukhois on the cheap from Russia, not to attack Portadown, but just to feel good about ourselves)
Kolya -the ”face like a spanked arse” effect prevalent in many Muscovites is a function of ‘big city’ as much as anything else. But it is a great shame that many dont see the inside of a Russian flat and experience the warmth there, which is special.
Indeed, I’m still baffled at the Russian government attitude towards tourism. Yes, I know, its hard for Russians to come west too, but that’s not the point. Russia could make an absolute fortune from tourism if it scrapped even just the priglasheniye step. How many tourists have bypassed Moscow and went to Prague or Budapest instead cos of visa bullshit? I cant count the number of people who have said to me ‘I’d love to visit Russia’ and never do because they think visas, quite rightly, are just a pain in the arse. When Ireland had nothing it made a massive effort to get tourists here and still makes an absolute fortune from them. Russia could do the same but chooses not to. Baffling.
The German side of my family never talks about the Nazizeit, unless they’re drunk. You would think they were in a group coma from 1933-1945. I would barely know anything if it weren’t for my greataunt.
Ger, what I called the Russian “street face” (which includes a certain brusqueness of manner) is not only a result of big city life. I have not noticed this as much in, say, New York or London. And well traveled people visiting Russia for the first time often remark upon it. And it is not that Russians are unfriendly, as anyone who has experienced the warm hospitality of Russians at home can attest. It is as if they don a special defensive armor when they hit the streets. Yes, all city dwellers do that to a certain extent, but in Russia it is a much thicker armor. Well, maybe things are more relaxed now–I would certainly be pleased if that is the case.
What’s your reasoning as to cause and effect there, fh? I’m not sure what your line of thought is.
I’m thinking of those who pointed fingers at others for fear they’d be ratted out themselves.
I like the “spanked arse” simile.
It’s still visible in Moscow. It might be a big-city thing. But I don’t think so. It’s especially visible to Americans because they are the exact opposite — social smiling is the accepted norm. You find a range of postures in various places around the world. Brits adopt a neutral and non-committal look. Italians look straight at you with interest. The French avoid eye contact (but check out what you’re wearing). I find Russians and Americans at either extreme on the spectrum. Nothing to do with genuine feeling or emotion. It’s just customary behaviour.
The German side of my family never talks about the Nazizeit, unless they’re drunk.
That’s another forbidden conversational area amongst some of my older Irish relatives, maybe because they were on the wrong side. As Ger says, neutral Ireland didn’t act all that neutral sometimes. Come to think of it — and I really hadn’t considered it before — 1939 is when my mum and several of her relatives moved to the UK and it wasn’t until the 1950s that she started going back to Dublin again. She certainly never discussed it, but I wonder if there was a family ruckus over the whole thing.
Chris – re What’s your reasoning as to cause and effect there, fh? I’m not sure what your line of thought is.
I’m thinking of those who pointed fingers at others for fear they’d be ratted out themselves.
Sorry. On reflection I probably misunderstood you in the first place. You’re thinking was that the Troubles-generation Irish probably don’t talk about their divided past because they don’t want to revisit old squabbles, often amongst relatives. And you think that’s comparable to Russians’ conflicted views about Stalin.
My own reaction was that they were possibly comparable but only insofar as there is guilt and shame involved. Both in the earlier period and in the 70s and 80s, people were being manipulated, turned against one another and betraying friends and relatives, and killed if felt to be helping adversaries.
The Republican and Orange communities were being terrorized by these thugs, to maintain discipline, and each side had its informers and spies. Fear played a huge role. It wasn’t just a matter of eccentric Uncle Dermot being a little bit more radical than the rest of the family. They knee-capped and blew up and shot their own, and sat at the family dinner table afterwards. The terror was similar. I’m not sure much else was.
That’s what I was thinking about. Sorry I didn’t make that clear.