MI6 Bitch

By Sean at 29 October, 2007, 4:39 pm

So there you have it. Sounds like Andrei Lugovoi was right after all. The London Daily Mail revealed today that Alexandr Litvinenko was indeed a paid MI6 agent. Says the Mail:

Alexander Litvinenko was receiving a retainer of around £2,000 a month from the British security services at the time he was murdered.

The disclosure, by diplomatic and intelligence sources, is the latest twist in the Litvinenko affair, which has plunged relations between London and Moscow to their lowest point since the Cold War.

Sources also say that Litvinenko was recruited by Sir John Scarlett. Scarlett now heads the Crown’s secret service. Before that he was stationed in Moscow. It’s also said that Litvinenko was working for MI6 at the time of his murder.

Litvinenko’s wife Marina denies that her husband ever worked for MI6. But why would she know? I’ve seen enough Hollywood spy movies to know that wives being clueless about their husbands spy work has some grain of truth in reality. Marina Litvinenko is in Portugual trying to lobby European leaders to put pressure on Russia to extradite Andrei Lugovoi. It’s no wonder she would want to deny the MI6 story even if she did know it. I doubt this revelation will garner any sympathy. Regular murders are one thing. But spy vs. spy killings involving radioactive materials. Well that is another . . .

One thing, however, is clear. Mrs. Litvinenko is indeed worried about her husband’s legacy. So much so that she’s bankrolled it into a Hollywood film. It was announced last week that Hollywood blockbuster veteran Michael Mann has bought rights from the Litvinenko Justice Foundation to make a film about Litvinenko’s murder. I don’t know how much the rights were sold for, but I’m sure it can buy a lot of “justice.” Mann’s version (Johnny Depp is said to making a similar film) is based on, you guessed it, Marina Litvinenko’s book (co-written with Alexander Goldfarb) Death Of A Dissident: The Poisoning Of Alexander Litvinenko And The Return Of The KGB. The film deal news coincides with the book’s release in Portugal. What a coincidence! Marina Litvinenko is in Portugal to “lobby” European leaders at the same time her book comes out there, and news about a movie based on said book is announced. Here in Tinsel Town that’s called a publicity tour. Whichever PR firm handling all this gets a gold star!

This is not to sound like I think Marina Litvinenko and her colleagues at the Litvinenko Justice Foundation (whose founders incidentally include Boris Berezovsky, Goldfarb, and their lawyer Louise Christian) are not interested in finding the killer. After all, you can’t make a good film without an evil villain. And spinning the murder into some elaborate Kremlin plot might be too ephemeral for audiences to follow. Just think of the celluloid confusion Syriana induced. For Alexandr Litvinenko to be fully canonized as an anti-Kremlin dissident (that is if his canonization isn’t complete already) , the evildoer needs to be caught. Because if left in the hands of Hollywood scriptmeisters who knows what kind of elaborate tale will be wrought.

Popularity: 11% [?]

Categories : Litvinenko | Lugovoi


Trackbacks & Pingbacks

Comments
Chrisius Maximus October 29, 2007

2000 pounds? Man, MI6 is cheap.

W. Sparticus October 29, 2007

I’m guessing that was £2,000 for a part-time effort.

Even so, I bet the FSB throws around much more serious “quan”. After all, it isn’t as if they have to justify it to Russian tax-payers.

Everything in this case is some mixture of truth and lies, so I’m not about to 100% buy into Lugovoi’s “who me?” defense and story. It does all point towards some further justification of Russian “paranoia” over Western governments spying and interfering in their domestic affairs.

Maybe that whole absurd rock/spy scandal was for real. I thought spies engaged in high-tech, encrypted information transfer these days, but if the UK is only paying spies £24,000 a year, maybe they can only afford cheap-ass looking plastic rocks with easily detected transmitters. You can get the same rocks at Home Depot for hiding your spare key to the house or garage.

Chrisius Maximus October 29, 2007

“Maybe that whole absurd rock/spy scandal was for real.”

I think it probably was.

Sean October 29, 2007

It is also possible that Litvinenko sold himself cheap. Many reports say that he had money problems and its possible that when MI6 approached him (or he approached them) he didn’t ask for much.

Or it is also possible that from MI6’s perspective, Litvinenko just wasn’t worth that much. He’d been out of the FSB since 1998, so how helpful could he have been except as a possible go between with current FSB agents willing to flip.

Plus if the Cold War provided any lesson, its that emigres and turncoats tended to be full of lies, rumor, and fantasies themselves. Its certainly possible that whatever bullshit Litvinenko was dishing them was only worth 2000 quid a month.

Lyndon October 29, 2007

Perhaps it’s neither here nor there, but if the idea was that Litvinenko was going to be paid that amount for his whole life (as some sort of life-pension reward for “defecting” and spilling what he knew when he came to the UK, rather than as payment for ongoing services), it was not really such a trivial amount.

Chrisius Maximus October 29, 2007

Did Litvinenko get Bond girls?

W. Sparticus October 29, 2007

Perhaps it’s neither here nor there, but if the idea was that Litvinenko was going to be paid that amount for his whole life (as some sort of life-pension reward for “defecting” and spilling what he knew when he came to the UK, rather than as payment for ongoing services), it was not really such a trivial amount.

I wonder if Litvinenko gets some sort of signed contract with MI6? Was it a lifetime contract or a 5-year deal?

If there is a contract, then future wannabe spies would do well to hire an agent during the negotiations. Consider Scott Boras, for example.

Spies could then have very productive years just as their contracts were due to expire, or when they had the option to waive their deals (see J.D. Drew or A-Rod).

Really, there is probably a whole untapped market in contract negotiations there.

Buster October 29, 2007

I’m pretty excited about the Michael Mann part of this story. Do you think it will be more like a Al Pacino-Bobby DeNiro pairing, or Tom Cruise-Jamie Foxx? And imagine the great panoramic shots of Moscow and London. It’s bound to be a beautiful farce, at least. Which is more than I could say for what I imagine Depp will do with it.

Chrisius Maximus October 29, 2007

So, what were they paying him for? What information could he have had that would have justfied his salary? What services could he have provided?

Sean October 29, 2007

Like I said, and I don’t have any evidence of this, he was a go between. He knew people that MI6 perhaps wanted to get information or flip. Litvinenko could probably get networks of FSB types and other important people (i.e. within the Russian emigre community) going based on his connections with people in London and back in Russia.

Come to think of it. There have been a lot of assumptions that the Kremlin killed him. Perhaps Litvinenko was a Brit spy against BAB. That would make sense.

I’m totally into the movie despite my derision. I’ll be there just for those amazing shots of Moscow. Plus I love the cheesy action-drama. I did like Collateral.

Lyndon October 29, 2007

I have no idea if this is applicable to Litvinenko’s move to the UK (I have never felt like reading up on the background or details of this case was worth much time), but I think the way it works in classic “defection” cases is that a deal or a vague deal is struck before the country the defector is going to knows the full extent of his knowledge. If the guy is at all mercenary, he has to realize that he loses his leverage as soon as they know what he knows, especially if it’s not very useful info. Of course, making secret deals with scoundrels doesn’t always make for an enforceable bargain, as shows.

[New versiia: Litvinenko was whacked by MI6 to avoid paying him his little stipend, due to "budgetary constraints."]

And if the defector is doing it out of political convictions (which was believable during the Cold War, but not so much anymore), then the people who take him in may want to express their gratitude by guaranteeing him a source of income. For example, one of the things the Jamestown Foundation was set up to do was to help publish and market books by defectors from east of the Iron Curtain.

We can also consider whether people like Illarionov (actually, he may be the only high-profile one) who go from positions on Putin’s team to think-tanks in DC (though Cato is not usually alleged to be part of the imagined “not-so-Russia-friendly axis” of Brookings, Carnegie, et al. :) ) are sort of like modern-day defectors, with the difference that they are actually able to go back to Russia and not get shot.

Lyndon October 29, 2007

I think I’m going to just start pasting in the links, since it looks like I’ve botched the “” tag again.

Last line of the first para should read “…as this litigation shows.”

Just in case (because it’s an interesting story):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61694-2005Jan9.html

And the link to the background on Jamestown looks like it works.

Damn inflated comment count…

Sean October 29, 2007

Interesting. This throws more light on the publisher of Litvinenko’s book, Encounter Books. Encounter publishes most books by American conservatives and neo-cons. David Horowitz is a particular beast. So either Litvinenko or someone in his camp, probably his co-author Yuri Felshinsky. Felshinsky is an emigre defector. He left the USSR in 1978. I don’t know if this qualifies for what Lyndon states above.

Chrisius Maximus October 30, 2007

“Perhaps Litvinenko was a Brit spy against BAB. That would make sense.”

Or against Zakaev.

W. Sp - Sp - Sparticus October 30, 2007

I did like Collateral.

That’s why I downloaded “Hands of Time” by Groove Armada.

So what’s on this films soundtrack? “Stuck in the Middle with You” by Stealers Wheel is too obvious. Plus, Reservoir Dogs has been there, done that.

Lyndon October 30, 2007

Sean, you can exhaust yourself trying to figure out the reasoning behind why some of these books get published. For example, when Regnery, the US’s “leading conservative publisher” published Gen. Lebed’s 1996 campaign autobiography in English in 1997 (though they couldn’t figure out how to translate the title – “Za Derzhavu Obidno” became “My Life and Country”) – was it to show the threat that a military man in the Kremlin could present? To promote him as a tough but fair potential ruler of Russia? Just to sell books (doubtful)? Or perhaps Mr. Regnery just wanted the chance to have dinner with Lebed (see the second photo from the top on this page). Who knows. I miss Lebed, though. Is it possible that this was actually written about him, roughly ten years ago (note that the other figures mentioned are all still around, though none of them are considered “successor” candidates anymore!):

Among the handful of contenders to succeed Boris N. Yeltsin — Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin; the Mayor of Moscow, Yuri Luzhkov; the Communist Party leader, Gennadi Zhuganov [sic - whoops!]; the neo-fascist Vladimir Zhirinovsky and a few self-styled reformers more admired in the West than in Russia — Lebed is probably the most popular in Russia, and the most ambiguous.

Oh, and Regnery also published a book by Stanislav Lunev, who apparently defected in 1992 (one has to think it was rats off the ship at that point, but who knows).

I like the thought about Litvinenko perhaps having been MI6’s mole in BAB’s inner circle, or the man tasked with monitoring the Chechen “gov’t-in-exile.” This case clearly needs more creative speculation.

BTW, Wally, am I imagining things, or are you intentionally varying your comment name to avoid climbing higher in the “commentators” hall of shame?

Chrisius Maximus October 30, 2007

“the “commentators” hall of shame?”

Ahem. “Hall of pride.” :)

Chrisius Maximus October 30, 2007

“I like the thought about Litvinenko perhaps having been MI6’s mole in BAB’s inner circle, or the man tasked with monitoring the Chechen “gov’t-in-exile.” This case clearly needs more creative speculation.”

I hereby creatively speculate that the Brits would have a very good reason to get someone to monitor the Ichkerians-in-exile.

I am kind of surprised this link hasn’t been made more before. (Ichkerians — BAB — Litvinenko — Islamist terrorism — London bombs — radioactive materials from the former USSR — Basaev’s nuclear terrorism in 1995. Group those items in whatever way you see fit to make a theory to your liking!)

W. Shedd October 30, 2007

BTW, Wally, am I imagining things, or are you intentionally varying your comment name to avoid climbing higher in the “commentators” hall of shame?

Actually, I was disappointed that I was so low on the list. I remember the long ago days when my comments and questions might be the only remarks on Sean’s articles.

I play with the names and make such tongue-in-cheek comments lately simply because 2 weeks of pneumonia will make a man stir crazy. I need to finish some articles of my own as I crawl back to good health.

As for the BAB being monitored by MI6 – I thought the rumor was that BAB was also working for MI6? Lugovoi’s original comments about Litvinenko supposedly trying to recruit him to recruit more “dissidents” makes the most sense to me.

Chrisius Maximus October 30, 2007

“As for the BAB being monitored by MI6 – I thought the rumor was that BAB was also working for MI6?”

I don’t think BAB works for anybody — he makes deals with them.

Sean October 30, 2007

I remember the long ago days when my comments and questions might be the only remarks on Sean’s articles.

Very true. But I think your name changing is the problem. I tried to look into the widget to add up the comments from your other names, but the options are quite limited.

I think that the possibility that Litvinenko was hired to provide information on the Chechen exiles then that also raises the idea that they were the ones (with BAB) that offed him. Something that I think Chris has been saying for a while now. With the MI6 revelation, its starting to make more sense.

And what ever happened to Dmitri Kovtun?

Chrisius Maximus October 30, 2007

Way back when, my mind was playing with the idea that he accidentally poisoned himself trying to hawk the stuff. Who in Britain would be interested in acquiring this sort of substance? Hmmm. Couple this with his conversion to Islam and his having been declared a martyr by the jihadis (just how did he earn this honor?), and one’s brain begins to click.

They’re just clicks though, possibly on nothing.

W. Shedd October 30, 2007

Way back when, my mind was playing with the idea that he accidentally poisoned himself trying to hawk the stuff.

The problem with that theory is – he would have had to know the consequences of accidental ingestion and surely would have had either a chelating agent on hand, or would have informed doctors what he likely ingested. There are ways to treat ingestion of the stuff if you know what it is and act very quickly.

If he didn’t know what he was messing with or the consequences of ingestion, than he was a rather large fool (which remains a possibility, I suppose).

Also, if Scotland Yards reported information is to be believed at all, one of the planes from Lugovoi’s flight from Russia to the UK showed evidence of radiation, etc.

Chrisius Maximus October 30, 2007

“Also, if Scotland Yards reported information is to be believed at all, one of the planes from Lugovoi’s flight from Russia to the UK showed evidence of radiation, etc.”

Wasn’t it three planes?

Lugovoi could have been delivering the stuff.

W. Shedd October 30, 2007

Wasn’t it three planes?

I’m going by memory of some time-line that tried to explain the sequence of events and when and where people were and where radiation was detected – however, I had thought there was one plane that arrived from Moscow to London that had detectable concentrations of radiation, and a couple of others that had returned with detectable radiation levels. The inference from the timeline was that Lugovoi brought the stuff to the UK on one flight, and when the poison was used, some messy amounts of radiation were tracked onto other planes by Lugovoi and others.

Chrisius Maximus October 30, 2007

You know, it occurs to me that “MI6 Bitch” is also the name of a song by Eng.lang.mASS.

Coincidence? You decide.

Jesse October 31, 2007

they should make the Litvinenko movie into a sequel to ‘Ronin’

Chrisius Maximus October 31, 2007

Or “Kill Bill.” Ms. L can avenge her husband’s death Uma-style.

W. Shedd October 31, 2007

“Don’t you understand? I never left.”

Yes, that should be a classic line, just like, “That’s no moon. It’s a space station!”

or

“Who Is Keyser Soze?”

or

“What would you do with a brain if you had one?”

ivanov February 14, 2008

Daily Mail also revealed that Badri talked with Lugovoy recently. By phone.
But no traces of radioactive stuff were found on and around Badri.

I’m just wondering who will the first to blame Russian KGB for killing with VoIP? :)

ivanov April 1, 2008

Ona shto, dura?

“Marina Litvinenko

I have asked my lawyers to petition HM Coroner to hold a full inquest into the murder of my husband, Alexander Litvinenko. Only a review of the evidence in an open, independent court in Britain will get to the truth about who poisoned his tea with radioactive polonium-210 on November 1, 2006, as well as how and why.”

Her “plea”

On the second thought – I think she is not smart person indeed. But this was her choice. Кто девушку угощает, тот её и танцует…

“I have asked my lawyers…” – very funny. She has no lawyers except those from Berezovsky. As well as same British speech writer who wrote “last letter from Sasha”. Same style – of a person whose native language is English.

“I do this against the wishes of the Scotland Yard and David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, who both told me that making the evidence public would prejudice a criminal trial”

I think they know what they are talking about. The least they want – to get case opened to public.

So the person(s) behind this “plea” is staging some new show as a “royal present” in May? Because I have no other explanation.

Except the spring epidemic among idiots:
“The House (aka US Congress) endorsed a resolution Tuesday that suggests the Russian government might have had a hand in the 2006 radiation poisoning death of a Russian dissident.” Or is this just a 1st April joke?

Chrisius Maximus April 2, 2008

I’m still wondering why nobody has connected the dots, in public at any rate, between radioactive material in Litvinenko in 2006, radioactive material in a park in Moscow in 1995, the Chechen diaspora, and Litvinenko’s conversion to Islam.

ivanov April 2, 2008

there are so many dots to connect, you know….

Also someone might be well aware of the direction these dots will point to if connected.

And one more – the cause of Litvinenko death still NOT announced.

Chrisius Maximus April 2, 2008

While I am pretty sure that L was killed by radiation poisoning :) I also suspect that the Brits rushed to finger Lugovoi for political reasons. I.e., they knew he wasn’t going to be extradited, so they could let the whole thing fade away and not draw attention to the kind of people London is giving asylum to and what they might have been engaged in.

Isn’t Scaramello STILL under house arrest in Italy?

fh April 2, 2008

Chris – What’s the radioactive find in a Moscow park reference?

Yes, Scaramella is still in the slammer. I bet he’s praying Berlusconi wins the upcoming elections and revives the loony Mitrokhin commission.

Chrisius Maximus April 2, 2008

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A06EFDF1039F936A15752C1A963958260&sec=&spon=

Russians Assert Radioactive Box Found in Park
By MICHAEL SPECTER
Published: November 25, 1995

Anxious Russian officials assured people today that there was nothing dangerous in the radioactive container removed on Thursday from a Moscow park where it apparently had been placed by Chechen separatists.

The 30-pound box containing radioactive cesium was found buried under snow near the entrance to Izmailovsky Park, one of Moscow’s most popular recreation areas, after Chechnya’s best-known rebel leader, Shamil Basayev, told Russian television reporters where to find it.

Russian Independent Television Network (NTV) had shown on Thursday an interview filmed two weeks earlier with Mr. Basayev, who led the raid on the southern Russian city of Budyonnovsk earlier this year.

Mr. Basayev said he wanted to make it clear that Chechen guerrillas could do great damage to Russia if the war over Chechen secession did not end.

The Federal Security Service is continuing to investigate Mr. Basayev’s assertion that four parcels had been brought into Russia, and that at least two were hidden in Moscow where they could be detonated at any time.

Aleksandr Mikhailov of the security service said today: “The first tests showed that beyond one meter from the package there was no threat to health. Initial tests show that the package does not pose a serious threat to the environment or health.”

Interior Ministry officials criticized the television network for not alerting officials earlier.

“No lust for fame, sensation or personal benefit can justify not informing the authorities about a planned crime,” the ministry said in a statement today.

NTV, which produces the most independent and vigorous television news in Russia, has long been at odds with the Government, particularly since the start of the war in Chechnya. In the broadcast on Thursday, a reporter said the network did not immediately believe Mr. Basayev’s threats.

The president of the network, Igor Malashenko, said today that the authorities were quickly informed of all they knew.

“In spite of repeated media warnings to these ministries about possible subversion by Chechen terrorists,” Mr. Malashenko said, “we have once again seen there blatant ineptitude and inability to protect the public against a looming threat.”

The security service said the parcel and the information about how to find it were “a routine link in the chain of provocations by Shamil Basayev aimed at creating an atmosphere of fear in society.”

That was probably just what Mr. Basayev had in mind. What seems to bother people far more than the level of radiation is the sense that it was not very difficult for Chechen rebels, who have already proved willing to carry out horrifying acts of violence, to place the package in a well-known Moscow park.

ivanov April 2, 2008

“While I am pretty sure that L was killed by radiation poisoning :)

I have no objection to your pretty Sure :)
What I’m saying – NO official results have been announced so far.
If it is polonium – what’s the point of hiding it?

As to Scaramello – I’m not sure this is his real name (as everything he said appeared to be BS)

fh April 2, 2008

Oh right. Thanks. I’d completely forgotten. What happened to the other three “packages”?

ivanov April 2, 2008

Box in the park?
I guess it had nothing to do with Litvinenko. Neither with nuclear terrorism.

Such “boxes” are found all the time – and in 90’s it was regular matter. You might not be aware how many radioactive stuff is used around. And after the collapse of the old Soviet system to control and dispose of such stuff – it was no big deal to find it in the garbage. Because it cost money to dispose.

Chrisius Maximus April 2, 2008

“What happened to the other three “packages”?”

I don’t have a clue. That’s what I’d be worried about most if I were Scotland Yard, though. Or rather that somebody associated with people who had shown the ability to acquire such materials, and the desire to use them, had been killed by just such materials; and I would be concerned by the ideological similarities between the views of these people and some of those who have tried to set off bombs in London.

fh April 2, 2008

Ivanov – Castoff cesium has occasionally been found in garbage dumps elsewhere, presumably from medical facilities. You’re right that polonium is a different matter.

Still, Chris is right about “ideological similarities” or, at least, mindset. This notion of a dirty bomb has been part of the Chechnya narrative for many years. It’d be a mistake to ignore it in a Litvinenko investigation. I’m not saying it supplies motive and points to L’s own circle — it could just as easily point in the opposite direction and another type of setup. But this is another line of inquiry which I suspect hasn’t been pursued and should be.

db April 2, 2008

… NO official results have been announced so far.

Here you go again.

According to Sir Ken Macdonald, On 23 November 2006 Mr Litvinenko died in a London hospital of acute radiation injury. He was found to have ingested a lethal dose of Polonium 210, a highly radioactive material…

Is that not official enough for you?

ivanov April 2, 2008

Not enough.

As you might not know British side refusing to attach autopsy report with its extradition request.

“Three pathologists were attending the autopsy at the Royal London hospital, CNN’s European Political Editor Robin Oakley said.

One pathologist represented the UK government, another was attending for Litvinenko’s wife, Marina, and the third was an independent specialist who would report to the defense team in case of a criminal prosecution in the case”

From medical point of view (as well as legal) the fact that someone was hit by the car doesn’t mean he died from that accident.

I’m not a doctor but I doubt that no one in the hospital didn’t suspect (and check) radioactive cause till last moment. At least THE ONLY official photo released by L’s “friend” Berezovsky should have alarmed any doctor (unless the photo was staged).

Litvinenko visited BAB’s office same day he met with Lugovoy (by the way). And it was BAB who hired and “fired” Litvinenko – both times for own benefits.

Polonium in this case was used not as weapon but as false trace.

PS. Just personal opinion.

Chrisius Maximus April 3, 2008

Fh, I’m sure the idea must have occurred to them. I mean, it’s obvious. Especially considering that Scaramella — the guy that Litvinenko actually accused of killing him — is being tried for, ahem, weapons smuggling, and that the amount of polonium taken into Britain seems to have been far greater than what was used to kill Litvinenko — or rather, what killed him, since I’m not sure he was murdered at all. The stuff was tracked all over Europe. “Where is the rest of this highly dangerous substance?” would have been my question. (My guess is that it currently resides at the bottom of the Thames.)

Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t recollect offhand that Litvinenko ever claimed he was killed by Putin and/or the FSB at all. That was BAB’s spin.

Chrisius Maximus April 3, 2008

PS. what really interests me is that the media, which are usually trigger-happy with respect to anything that could have any link whatsoever to terrorism, especially the Islamist kind, seemed totally obliviously to this. It’s amazing.

db April 3, 2008

Not enough … As you might not know British side refusing to attach autopsy report with its extradition request.

You are shifting the subject. The actual autopsy report has not indeed been released, but that’s not at all what you originally stated, is it?

As for the rest of your comment, well, учи матчасть.

ivanov April 3, 2008

db

Saying “died of acute radioactive injury” is same as saying “died of age” or “died because his life ended” aka “помер от скончания жизни” (медицинская шутка – прим. автора).

In medical terms it’s BS. People dies of failure of certain organs that stops functioning because of bla-bla-bla. This allows to determine what actually happened (but – REMEMBER – not by WHO!). The fact that British side just point finger but doing it’s best not to give ANY details indicates to me that they don’t have ANY evidence – iron or wood – against Lugovoy/Kremlin. Hence their “tactics” in “prosecuting” this matter. But this is short-sighted tactics. It saves asses and faces of some guys in London for now but ….

FYI – I know матчасть. And I learned it not from newspaper or ЖЖ… ;)

Chrisius Maximus April 3, 2008

What are you disputing exactly, Ivanov? Is your hypothesis that L was killed or died through some other mechanism than polonium, which was then specifically introduced so as to point the finfer at the Kremlin?

ivanov April 3, 2008

I’m saying that we don’t know the cause of his death. :)
The presence of polonium in so many places – including places not visited by Logovoy and Co. – for me seems to be a false trace. At least I would never rely on it as murder method. Neither select such rare and expensive but not really dangerous stuff for any possible “handmade weapon”.
The whole story was staged and presented in Agatha Christie style. But as a person who know something about matchast – I don’t buy it.

Chrisius Maximus April 3, 2008

I actually don’t think he was murdered. I’m pretty sure he had a serious case of radiation sickness though. I think he was accidentally exposed, either because he was handling the stuff himself and got careless or came into contact with somebody else who had. You know — polonium in bag. Bag gets little hole in it. Dust falls on hand holding bag. Litvinenko shakes hand with hand with dust on it. Litvinenko sneezes, moves hand to nose. Litvinenko inhales dust. Something like that.

Kolya April 3, 2008

db is right, Ivanov. You wrote that no official result was released and he showed you that indeed it was released. You may not like the official result, you may not believe it, but you cannot claim that there is no official cause of death. Litvinenko died of of polonium poisoning.

This reminds of the time you mocked statistics showing that the murder rate in Russia is several times higher than in the US. When I showed you that the numbers I relied on where based on 2006 figures of the Russian Федеральная служба государственной статистики you went quiet.

Chrisius Maximus April 3, 2008

Well I think it is extremely unlikely, but it is _conceivable_ that the results were fabricated, which I think is what Ivanov is suggesting.

fh April 3, 2008

Ivanov is saying three things:

1. There is no official confirmation that polonium was the cause of death.

2. Even if it was, it may have been consumed to cover up another potential cause of death.

3. There is no official confirmation that the death was a murder.

I disagree with the first of these. The medical authorities made an official announcement. That’s enough for me.

The second is pure speculation based on nothing other than Ivanov’s suspicions.

Contention No. 3 therefore rests on how exactly the polonium was consumed. I agree that we have had no formal affirmation that it was administered by a third party with intent. Could have been self-administered or administered by others, and accidentally or deliberately in either instance.

Which is why it would be good to hold an inquest. An open CPS case doesn’t preclude holding an inquest.

db April 3, 2008

FYI – I know матчасть. And I learned it not from newspaper or ЖЖ…

Good. Then I don’t have to explain to you why Po-210 is so deadly when swallowed yet relatively difficult to detect.

db April 3, 2008

I think he was accidentally exposed, either because he was handling the stuff himself and got careless or came into contact with somebody else who had.

The problem with your hypothesis is that polonium smuggling doesn’t exist. It just makes no market sense; and before you ask, no, polonium is no good for making a dirty bomb.

ivanov April 3, 2008

“results were fabricated, which I think is what Ivanov is suggesting.”

Negative. I doubt any expert would undertake such risk. It’s much easier and safer not announcing them for whatever reason. Brits are the best in giving “reasons” and “explanations”, I have to admit this.

“…the wishes of the Scotland Yard and David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, who both told me that making the evidence public would prejudice a criminal trial”

In BAE/Saudi case it was “interest of national security”, with Iraq’s WMD – just warong interpretation of “facts” etc…

Chrisius Maximus April 3, 2008

“It just makes no market sense; and before you ask, no, polonium is no good for making a dirty bomb.”

You’re assuming that the people doing the trading are 1) as chemically knowledgeable as you (presumably) are or 2) are doing so for market reasons.

Chrisius Maximus April 3, 2008

To clarify: whether P can or can’t be used to make a dirty bomb (or other nasty object) is irrelevant. What matters is if the potential recipient believes that it can.

ivanov April 3, 2008

FYI – I know матчасть. And I learned it not from newspaper or ЖЖ…

Good. Then I don’t have to explain to you why Po-210 is so deadly when swallowed yet relatively difficult to detect.
==================================

Please explain. Like how relatively difficult is really difficult, for instance. :)
I’ve never said I learned polonium матчасть. I’ve learned investigation матчасть…

db April 3, 2008

Please explain. Like how relatively difficult is really difficult, for instance.

Polonium 210 is not detected by generic equipment, so you really need to know beforehand what you are looking for.

ivanov April 3, 2008

db.

Have your ever dealt with radioactive material or just read about it? Have you worked in the med lab?

If you are looking at Litvinenko photo – this is one of the first thing that comes to mind – лучевая болезнь.
I also doubt that British doctors use only generic equipment – like thermometer – for analysis.

fh April 3, 2008

Usual tests are for gamma radiation. Hospitals don’t have the equipment to test for alpha-emitting substances, like polonium 210. Ultimately in the L case, the UK health protection agency — more normally involved in workplace toxicity and radiation issues — tested for alpha particles.

IRISHMAN April 3, 2008

”Polonium 210 is not detected by generic equipment, so you really need to know beforehand what you are looking for.”

db, wouldnt an Atomic Absorption spectrometer find that easy enough (assuming you had the correct lamp and actually tried to find it) or maybe an ICP-MS?

ivanov -I think the issue is whether or not it was looked for, I would think it is easily found if you are actually looking for it. But I know myself conventional tox tests, especially preliminary ones, would probably miss it.

”Negative. I doubt any expert would undertake such risk. It’s much easier and safer not announcing them for whatever reason”

There’s no doubt in my mind that the Brits have used an accredited method that has been validated and externally audited, presumably to ISO 17025, which is a strict technical audit. The Brits have called a positive, and I know myself from working in anti-doping that a false positive means likely the end of your career and the tarnishment of the lab. Besides the levels the Brits are alluding to would be quite easily detected by an ICP-MS, no problem at all. Junior chemists work.

IRISHMAN April 3, 2008

”Usual tests are for gamma radiation”

I dont think thats even necessary. Assuming some polonium has survived, it would be easily detected itself, not by its radioactive emissions.

IRISHMAN April 3, 2008

After a quick search I’m struggling to find a paper that says polonium is tested for using ICP-MS, a not uncommon instrument, but I cannot off the top of my head see why it couldnt -there are almost certainly a few of these instruments somewhere in London, though maybe the forensic tox labs dont have one -I suppose its not every day of the week they are looking for the likes of polonium

db April 3, 2008

Ger,

I’m a theoretical physicist, what do I know about ICP-MS?

As far as I understand, the standard polonium test is done (roughly speaking) by evaporating 24 hours worth of piss and putting the residue into an alpha spectrometer.

Kolya April 3, 2008

FH, I agree with you. The official cause of death is that Litvinenko received a lethal dose of polonium. Whether it was murder or an accident is a different issue. I assume that he was murdered, but I certainly do NOT discount the possibility that his death was accidental (caused either by Litvinenko’s or someone else’s mishandling of the material).

IRISHMAN April 3, 2008

Sorry db. I knew you were a scientist of some description.
”As far as I understand, the standard polonium test is done (roughly speaking) by evaporating 24 hours worth of piss and putting the residue into an alpha spectrometer.”

well that answers that then. Its down to the Brits actually simply thinking of testing for it.

ivanov April 3, 2008

Does the last post mean that we should continue in new thread?

ivanov April 3, 2008

2 fh
——————————–
ivanov is saying three things:

1. There is no official confirmation that polonium was the cause of death.

……
I disagree with the first of these. The medical authorities made an official announcement. That’s enough for me.

———————————-

I knew that this was enough for you :)
For millions of others it was even “clear from the beginning” that it was Putin who ordered the murder. They “knew” it without any “official report”. :) So what?

BUT!!! From legal and medical point of view so called “official” version is BS.

From Epstein’s blog (remember – I haven’t heard about him till yesterday!)
“10. We don’t know the findings of the Coroner .
The British authorities have not released the Coroner’s Report, if it was completed. So there is no official cause of death.”

If you don’t trust us – ask your lawyer :)

Chrisius Maximus April 4, 2008

“I assume that he was murdered, but I certainly do NOT discount the possibility that his death was accidental (caused either by Litvinenko’s or someone else’s mishandling of the material).”

My wild shot-in-the-dark idea is that L was looking for a big score of some sort that would prove his worth and the value of his connections and get him back in the good graces of his boss, who was cutting him off, and didn’t really know what he was doing. We have to think like a low-level Mafia flunky with delusions of grandeur here. “This will really impress the Don!”

Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.