Stats
-
-
Oct
9
Last Chance Saloon for Russia at Luzhniki
October 9, 2007 |
Russian sports is glaringly absent from this blog. Though I’m a big fan of sports my interest is solely on American professional sports, specifically basketball and baseball. I’ve been tempted to comment on a few Russian sports related stories, especially Andrei Kirilenko’s threats to dump the NBA and his lucrative $63 million contract with the Utah Jazz to return to CSKA Moscow. Kirilenko apparently fell back in love with European ball when he helped Russia win the European tournament and was named MVP this summer. There is no doubt that AK-47 can dominate far more in Europe than he can in the States. Kirilenko’s possible move also seems to be spurred by a bit of nationalist calling. “I would like to be where I am needed and right now I feel that my country needs me,” Kirilenko told Sport Express.
Alas, basketball is not the sport in Russia. It’s football. This is why I’m happy to post this article that Ger Clancy, aka the Irishman sent me about Russia’s upcoming showdown against England. According to Kommersant, tickets for the October 17th match went in a matter of hours. Ten thousand people stood in the rain to snatch up one of the 6,800 tickets on sale at Luzhniki stadium. 570,000 people applied directly to the Russian Football Union for one of the 74,000 available seats.
What is more is that where there are victories in sport, politics is never too far behind. In an attempt to capitalize on Russia’s success on the football field, United Russia has made sure that some of its high profile members will be seated in Luzhniki’s VIP box seats looking to bask in any television camera rays. How Russia’s political parties utilize sport is an interesting topic in and of itself.
But putting that issue aside for now, let’s turn to the real matter at hand: the upcoming match itself.
Last Chance Saloon for Russia at Luzhniki
By Ger Clancy, the Irishman
The Head Coach of the Russian national football team, Guus Hiddink, is a man under pressure. After overcoming a shaky start to his first campaign in charge, including two draws with table-toppers Croatia and a good victory in Skopje, Hiddink is now facing a must-win situation against England in Moscow. Russia’s collapse last month at Wembley has left them two points behind England and anything less than three points for the Russians at Luzhniki Stadium will almost certainly lead to elimination from Euro 2008. Hiddink was hired as Russia coach in the summer of 2006, following a solid performance as boss of Australia in the World Cup, as well a semi-final run with South Korea, in 2002, and Holland (his native country) in 1998. His appointment was high-profile and is widely believed to have been for a six-figure sum. Hiddink’s brief was very simple; drag the Russian national team out of second-world football status. The main reason for his appointment was his ability to make do with limited player resources, as he has done with both Korea and Australia. Although Hiddink has four year contract with the Russian Football Union, ostensibly aimed at preparing the Sbornaya for a crack at a World Cup quarter-final in 2010, failure to reach the European Championships will be more than a disappointment. The disaster at Wembley was a trip down recent memory lane for them and their poorest performance since their 7-1 dismantling in Lisbon under Georgy Yartsev in 2004. But Hiddink can only work miracles with the willing and the believers. The question is can Russia find a resilience and consistency that no Sbornaya has shown since the late 1980s?
Soviet, and later Russian football, has never fully recovered from defeat at the hands of Holland in the final of Euro ’88. At the time the team was loaded with superstars including Vasily Rats, Igor Belanov, Anatoli Demianenko, Renat Dasaeyev, Sergei Alyenikov, Alexander Zavarov and Oleg Protasov. Belanov scored four goals at Mexico ’86 and was crowned European Footballer of the Year six months later. Dasaeyev was widely considered the best goalkeeper in the world at the time. The rest of the team was renowned and feared across Europe. At the height of their powers in 1985, on the way to the World Cup in Mexico, they beat England 2-0 at Wembley in one of the best away performances of the whole decade, and they routed Hungary 6-0 at Irapuato at the finals. Their counter-attacking style was awe-inspiring. The team routinely conceded control of midfield to the opposition and defended using a high-back line a few yards from their box, with a sweeper behind. The Soviets could play percentages with the opposition for two main reasons: the presence of Dasaeyev in goal and Khidiatullin at sweeper, neither of who were easily beaten, and their own potency in attack. They scored countless goals by dispossessing the opposition near the Soviet eighteen-yard line, followed by a lightning break-out up the field of only two or three pin-point, long range passes and a clinical finish at the other end. This was the last golden age in Soviet football.
The Soviets waltzed to the final of Euro ’88, thumping Holland, England and Italy on the way. However, a Gullit-Van Basten inspired Holland were reborn in the final and beat them 2-0, ushering in a new superpower in European football. From there onwards the decline began. The Soviets qualified for Italia ’90 but were unceremoniously dumped out in the first round out by Romania and Argentina. The defeat to Romania in particular had huge effects on the European landscape. Not only did it signal the end of the road for the USSR as a football power, it shifted the balance of soccer dominance in Eastern Europe from Moscow and Kiev to Bucharest and to a lesser extent Sofia, Belgrade and Zagreb. A re-built Soviet team qualified impressively for Euro ’92 in Sweden (playing there as the CIS) only to tamely bow out at the hands of an already-eliminated Scotland. By this time the Soviet nation had collapsed and at start of the 92/93 season, for the first time ever, a Russian national team was attempting to qualify for a tournament, World Cup USA ’94.
The tale of woe since the birth of the Russian national team has been almost unrelenting. Russia have qualified for four tournaments in the period 1992-2006, and failed miserably on all of the occasions to get out of the first round. Almost always rumors of trouble within the camp surfaced in newspaper articles. This was especially true of 1994, when a players’ spat with coach Pavel Sadyrin soured morale in the team. Both reigns of Oleg Romantsev ended in scandal and recrimination over favouritism to Spartak players and dire performances on the pitch. Their exit from the World Cup in Korea-Japan in 2002 was especially shambolic. The defeat to Japan (which may or may not have helped ignite a drunken riot in Moscow) and the astounding collapse against Belgium brought Russian football to new lows. The incidences where they failed to qualify for tournaments at all were even worse. A last-minute goalkeeping disaster against Ukraine in 1999 not only dumped Russia out of Euro 2000, it gave four points out of six to their bitter rivals. It should also be noted that Russia failed to qualify for France ’98, meaning they went six years without reaching a major tournament – an unheard-of situation for fans of the old USSR in the 1980s.
Russia’s poor showings in the last 15 years are down to a number of factors. In 1992, it was widely thought that the backbone of the Soviet/CIS teams had been Ukrainian and hence any Russia team would struggle without stars from Dynamo Kiev. But this has not been borne out by results. Not only have Russia been awful, Ukraine have been too. Ukraine qualified for nothing until Germany 2006 and even then was one of the poorest teams at the tournament. Their second-round match with Switzerland was probably the single worst finals match ever played. Also, in 1990-1992, the Soviet team disintegrated – there were almost none of the eighties superstars left at that stage. Poor coaching of the national team, in particular a failure to either control strong personalities in the dressing-room or inspire players on the field, has certainly contributed. It is also plain that Russia has been without world-class footballers in key positions for a long time (in particular on the left) and this will hinder any coach. But the chief protagonists in this long dark period are the players themselves. With the possible exceptions of Victor Anopko, Alexei Yevseev and Alexander Mostovoi , no Russian player has performed consistently well through the course of a whole qualifying tournament and finals. It is time the players themselves stood up and firmly took responsibility for their own performances on the field. Through 15 years of dark times, coaches, tactics and all types of variables have changed, but poor showings from the players have remained the same. The match at Wembley was a nightmare from Russia’s past. However, England are already missing players through injury for the rematch in Moscow including Emile Heskey, who tormented the Russians last month. A draw will not be a disaster but realistically Russia need to win if they wish to progress. Both Arshavin and Sychov are dangerous forwards and if the Berezutskiis and Malafeev can hold it together at the back, Russia may just get the three points they need. If the Russian players themselves can get their act together, Hiddink, as wily a coach as one could find, can lead them at last into a new future.
Russia vs England, 17th October 2007 Luzhniki Stadium, Moscow 19:00 MSK.
Popularity: 4% [?]
Comments
73 Comments so far
-
Subscribe
RIA Novosti- Global Voices: Russia
Ger, I thought this was interesting, and I don’t follow football at all. Well done. By the way, what is this “immunoassy” class you teach? I was thinking it must be something about how to become immune to the charms of, uh, ladies’ posteriors, a course which should be a mandatory part of the “pre-departure orientation” for folks headed to study or work in Russia. But look, the very first comment, and already I’m going off topic.
What is more is that where there are victories in sport, politics is never too far behind.
I thought Putin’s recent comments were especially interesting:
“Looking at our teams, one cannot immediately understand whether those are ours, or a team from Africa,” he said.
Looks like he’s getting that multinational “peace blanket” not a moment too soon.
Very informative article by Ger Clancy. Thanks! In the last couple of World Cups I had a soft spot for England and wanted England to move up much farther than it did. But this game is different. May Russia win! Since the demise of the Soviet Union, Russia was able to wield what pound per pound was a fairly talented group of players. You could have expected such a team to go much farther than it did (even if not quite to the semis), but each time the team had no chemistry, no elan.
What an ass Putin is for making the comment quoted by Lyndon. Even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he didn’t mean it in a racist way, he should have known how such a comment will be interpreted.
Excellent post, Ger!
Although I suspect that you are writing it because rugby is too painful to think about at the moment, with Ireland being dumped out and England looking good to reach the final. For what it’s worth, I’m now looking at plans to become a naturalised Fijian.
“Kirilenko apparently fell back in love with European ball when he helped Russia win the European tournament and was named MVP this summer. There is no doubt that AK-47 can dominate far more in Europe than he can in the States. Kirilenko’s possible move also seems to be spurred by a bit of nationalist calling. ‘I would like to be where I am needed and right now I feel that my country needs me,’ Kirilenko told Sport Express.”
****
Omitted was his falling out with Utah Jazz coach Jerry Sloan. I know a few people who have played ball over in Europe. The top FIBA Euro teams are talented. A number of them pay well with a comparatively shorter season than the NBA. A number of transplanted American hoopsters have embraced the Euro country of their residence.
In ice hockey, the Russian Super League is considered by many scouts and general managers to be the second best league after the NHL.
Pay well and they will come.
There is a great post at a now-defunct blog about CSKA spanking the Clippers in an exhibition match in Moscow last year.
I learned something new:
there are three African-Americans on the Russian CSKA — two guys you never heard of, and Trajan Langdon from Duke and Cleveland Cavaliers. Interesting insight into the Russian psyche: one black guy on the team, RJ Holden, is actually a Russian citizen AND Putin himself expedited RJ’s citizenship paperwork. Has Putin gone all Angela Davis on us? No, not really, there is a law that firmly stipulates the number of foreigners allowed on Russian sports teams. Giving RJ Russian citizenship conveniently skirts that issue.
Who knew that my almost-odnokursnik Trajan had gone to Moscow?! I wonder if he ever misses Cameron Indoor Stadium. The part about Holden being a Russian citizen I knew, but I can’t help wondering how he feels about Putin’s “Africa” remark (which as Kolya says was indeed tone-deaf at best), especially since it came so soon after and qualifying the Russian team for the 2008 Olympics.
Whoops, I think I typoed a hyperlink there - the last phrase should read “…so soon after Holden struck gold for Russia at Eurobasket 2007, qualifying the Russian team for the 2008 Olympics.”
As if Putin chooses the CSKA roster.
The coach of the just crowned Euro. FIBA champion Russian men’s national team is Israeli-American David Blatt.
Why not? America utilizes Russians and other former Soviets as coaches and athletes in sports like gymnastics and figure skating.
As per some inaccurate commentary at another thread: as is true with many other Russian national sports teams, the two headed eagle is present on the front of the Russian national basketball team’s jersey (men’s and women’s).
“What an ass Putin is for making the comment quoted by Lyndon. Even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he didn’t mean it in a racist way, he should have known how such a comment will be interpreted.”
Oh come on people. Lighten up. Have none of you ever made such a joke? I doubt it seriously.
“Chrisius Maximus on October 9, 2007 11:22 pm ‘What an ass Putin is for making the comment quoted by Lyndon. Even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he didn’t mean it in a racist way, he should have known how such a comment will be interpreted.’
Oh come on people. Lighten up. Have none of you ever made such a joke? I doubt it seriously.”
****
Who is being quoted in the above remark about Lyndon? As the “editor” in need of editing saga continues.
I of course hope that AK-47 is fed up with Herr Sloan. Not so that he leaves for Russia, but so he can come help my desperate Lakers. I wonder if there is a way for me to let AK know that we have a sizable Russian community, full of devs (they even wear those horrible fuck me boots on Sunset blvd). It will feel just like home without the harsh winter. And if that wasn’t enough to wet his palate here is the big bonus: No Mormons! Purple & Gold players are gods here. Just ask Kobe.
The poor Clippers. With Elton Brand out for the season they chances are even lower than before. That team is cursed.
In regard to foreign players and their impact on the NBA and the Euroleague, its nothing but good. There is a lot of college talent here that do well with a few years in Europe to hone their skills. And the foreign players here. They are making more and more inroads. They can play but they usually need a few seasons of toughening up. Just look at Ginobli, Yao, Nowitzki, and AK. Nowitzki is still a little soft, but I think Yao is going to have his best season if he can keep his conditioning up and stay healthy.
I can’t wait for the season to start.
I believe AK 47 is VERY happily married.
A good number of Serbs in So. Cal. as well.
As for the Lakers, things can be worse. Just look at the sorry state of the Knicks.
Was hoping for the Nets to move back to Nassau instead of Brooklyn.
The court side seats watching Dr. J in the ABA days was a viewing pleasure.
On the Lakers, I love how Stephen A. Smith sarcastically says Slava Medvedenko’s name.
Smith has a way of expressing his views.
Chris, since Putin in the same set of remarks let it be known that he wanted more money invested in training young Russian athletes (nothing wrong with that, of course), I don’t think he was really joking. Anyway, Putin likes to play up Russia’s multi-ethnic population and pretend he cares about xenophobia, so he should be a bit more sensitive. Not to go off riding the comparison train again, but an American politician who made a similar remark could expect serious, perhaps career-ending consequences (just ask George “Macaca” Allen).
And to answer your question more directly, spending much of my childhood and youth in Washington, DC, taught me to generally avoid making racial “jokes.” That said, I’m sure I’ve said all kinds of things at one time or another - but I’m not the president of a major country speaking to reporters. You would think Putin could keep himself in check after all these years in the spotlight.
“Not to go off riding the comparison train again, but an American politician who made a similar remark could expect serious, perhaps career-ending consequences (just ask George ‘Macaca’ Allen).’
****
I wonder about that. Are there not examples to the contrary?
Even if true, I think the above quoted relates to Russia being less PC and open on such views. A point which doesn’t make Russia the more bigoted society.
Seeing how some have hypocritically challenged credentials, I’m of ROC and Jewish backgrounds. I see bigotry and non-bigotry among all groups.
[...] Russia Blog writes about Russian football. Share [...]
Lyndon:
Upon giving your comparative opinion on intolerant remarks, I recall the time when Ed Koch called Ron Dellums a “Watusi”.
http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=72183173896656&mkt=en-US&lang=en-US&w=ad3c8c70&FORM=CVRE
He called him that after Dellums had said something which Koch didn’t like (if I correctly recall, it might’ve been related to the Middle East).
When asked to explain the Watusi remark, Koch had the chuzpa to claim that he meant it as a compliment; saying that the Watusi are a proud people.
I couldn’t find much on the net about that episode. Then again, Koch didn’t suffer any dramatic consequences for making that remark. A point that suggests that there’re other examples which run opposite to your view.
Regarding any comparisons between the Soviet footie squad of the late 1980s with today’s Russian team: keep in mind that the Soviet team included other former USSR republics like Ukraine, which made it to the last World Cup unlike Russia.
How many non-RSFSR players were on the 1988 squad?
Same can be said in men’s hoops. In that sport, the 1988 Olympic gold medal Soviet team was led by three Lithuanians. Post-Soviet Lithuania is an international powerhouse in men’s basketball.
On the other hand, Soviet ice hockey was dominated almost solely by RSFSR inhabitants. The post-Soviet Russian ice hockey decline has to do with:
- the national team not training together for as long a period as the Soviet one
- many of the top players choosing to skip major tournaments
Come to think of it, how much better would England’s football (soccer) team be if it was instead the UK, consisting of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England?
Mike, neither George Allen nor Ed Koch has anything to do with Russia (I knew I shouldn’t have tried to make a comparison to the US…), but against my better judgment I’ll humor you. The Allen flap occurred last year; the incident you mention occurred in 1985 and did not seem to involve documented public remarks. Anyway, do you recall what happened to Howard Cosell, Al Campanis and Jimmy “the Greek” Snyder in the 1980s when they made racist public remarks? Also, more recently, public figures like Mel Gibson, Andy Rooney, Don Imus and Michael Richards (Kramer from Seinfeld), not to mention politicians like Trent Lott and ex-Atlanta mayor Andrew Young, have suffered public chastisement or worse and been forced to apologize for insensitive remarks. In fact, truly egregious remarks by public figures have long been unacceptable - Google shared with me this interesting tale from the 1970s.
People can say whatever they want in private, but - in spite of how ridiculous political correctness can be at times - I think it is right that public figures be held to a higher standard in their public remarks, which seems to be the case in the US for the most part. Putin, on the other hand, freely “jokes” about rape and suggests that all Black athletes are “African.” The kindest thing one can say about these lapses is that they are poor form for a world leader who prides himself on his communication skills.
On the other hand, if you want validation for your view that Russia doesn’t have a problem with racism, you need look no further than the remarks of CSKA star JR Holden himself:
Being an African-American playing for Russia has caused some stares but no problems.
“Being able to travel and just being able to meet different people has just been amazing,” Holden said. “I have friends in Belgium, Italy, Spain and Greece.
“And it is not as bad as people think. It is the same as anywhere else. There are places that are racist and there are places that are wonderful. Just to see people and how they’ve grown up compared to how I’ve grown up is just an eye-opening experience.”
And here:
Being black can also be another obstacle in Moscow, where attacks on dark-skinned foreigners on the street are a common occurrence.
Former Spartak Moscow soccer player Jerry-Christian Tchuisse, a naturalized Russian citizen from Cameroon, said earlier this year that he was scared to leave his apartment in Moscow for fear of being assaulted because he was black.
But Holden said he has never experienced such problems since coming to Moscow, noting that he did not grow up in the “best neighborhood.”
“I’m used to being aware of danger and protecting myself,” he said.
None of this changes the fact that VVP’s remark was inappropriate, certainly by Western standards and, I would think, by the standards of more enlightened Russians. He could just as easily have made the exact same point in a less offensive manner, perhaps by saying something like (to paraphrase a Clintonism) “Russia’s national teams should look like Russia.”
[...] Last Chance Saloon for Russia at Luzhniki goalkeeping disaster against Ukraine in 1999 not only dumped Russia out of Euro 2000, it gave four… not been borne out by results. Not only have Russia been awful, Ukraine have been too. Ukraine [...]
Lyndon:
Koch was documented for saying such and never denied it. He gave that rather absurd reply (which I noted)that he said was meant as a compliment. It happened with little outrage. 1985 wasn’t so long ago. He didn’t suffer any negative consequences for making that remark.
I know about the other examples you’ve since given. However, I’m sure there’re others similar to the one on Koch.
Sometimes popularity with the press is an issue. I refer back to another thread, where I noted how a member on my county legislature said that Newsday could bust a number of politicos for intolerant remarks they make.
Like I said, it’s better to have someone not rape and make such a remark as Putin’s versus the seemingly more straight laced type who does in fact rape. Of course, the ideal is to have someone who does neither. I’ll again note that the Israeli delegation laughed at Putin’s rape remark. A story which JRL didn’t cover, despite it being a major English language mass media covered story. Ditto the Weldon investigation of a year ago.
Let me again note how legendary Indiana men’s college basketball coach Bobby Knight had pretty much went unscathed for his remark about how a woman should (in his view) enjoy being raped. This was when he was at his pinnacle of popularity.
Your below references on the two Black athletes in Russia doesn’t surprise me. There’s good and bad everywhere. In Spain, the crowd at one game made ape grunts directed at Blacks players on the opposing side. In Poland, a Nigerian player had bananas thrown at him. I wonder how many Blacks there’re in Poland?
[...] Bernd Haug wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptKirilenko apparently fell back in love with European ball when he helped Russia win the European tournament and was named MVP this summer. There is no doubt that AK-47 can dominate far more in Europe than he can in the States. … [...]
Lyndon:
Forgot to note a recently sold out pro-Ustasha concert in Zagreb, which included some prominent Croat officials.
You know about Jasenovac and what the Pavelic regime did during WW II?
How is that relevant to any of the previous discussion? You’ve ridden the comparison train around the bend again.
“And to answer your question more directly, spending much of my childhood and youth in Washington, DC, taught me to generally avoid making racial “jokes.””
DC is a Chocolate City (gainin’ on ya). Moscow is not.
Actually I suspect you are more bothered by the statement than 95% of the Africans living in Russia, who do not consider themselves Russians. Because they’re not, no more than I am.
Oh PS in a previous thread we were discussing the origins of the word “cherny.” Maybe I mentioned this before, but I read recently that apparently the word “chern” in Old Russia refered to rabble, so maybe it does precede racial concepts and has a nonethnic origin. Maybe connected to the Black Earth?
Actually I suspect you are more bothered by the statement than 95% of the Africans living in Russia, who do not consider themselves Russians. Because they’re not, no more than I am.
You may be right about that. I suspect that many Africans living in Russia have more to worry about than Putin running his mouth.
“You may be right about that. I suspect that many Africans living in Russia have more to worry about than Putin running his mouth.”
Yep. A former coworker of mine from Nigeria was beaten up five times.
“Lyndon on October 10, 2007 5:48 am How is that relevant to any of the previous discussion? You’ve ridden the comparison train around the bend again.’
***
At this thread, you were the one initiating this kind of comparison, with your suggestively selective view of how the West is more tolerant than bigoted/sexist Russia.
I don’t think it’s so clear cut and I provided examples.
A Black person walking in some areas of Brooklyn and Queens is risky. At another thread, someone linked a number of bigoted attacks in the US, with the observation that in Russia, such incidents are highlighted in a way to suggest that intolerance is a much greater problem in Russia.
Hi Guys!
First of all thanks for the kind words - I’ll reply to ye all later, am heading into a six-hour lab now and sadly I dont have the internet at home yet.
Lyndon - its ‘immunoassay’, I spelt it wrong first time. Its about using antibodies as diagnostic tools in things like HIV/cancer tests etc. As for posteriors, there’s some serious talent sitting in front of me, you wouldnt believe it! Nice students though. Its a biology course so most of the students are women.
“How Russia’s political parties utilize sport is an interesting topic in and of itself.”
***
Soviet times were interesting as well. The top clubs (like Spartak, CSKA, Dynamo, Wings) represented various orgs. At games, the differences among its respective supporters was often noticeable. In the early 1970s, Mark Mulovy of SI had a very good article on the subject.
After the USSR fell, CSKA sports clubs declined in performance (especially their top ice hockey team) unlike Dynamo’s.
I recall reading that this post-Soviet occurrence was due to CSKA’s army ties not being as up to snuff on the necessary marketing/funding techniques to support its program in a more market oriented economy. According to the piece I read, Dynamo’s Interior Ministry ties (intelligence conections) made it more understanding of the changed economy. CSKA has since evolved as shown by some of its Western corporate sponsors.
Th CSKA-Dynamo comparison kind of relates to the one believing that KGB folks like Putin would be the biggest CPSU reformers because of their overall work involving the actual realities of the outside world, when compared to what some other Soviet government orgs. did.
I understand that AK Bars Kazan is owned by the Tatar government. That team spent mucho on acquiring striking NHL players a few years ago. On paper, that team was NHL playoff level. The year of the NHL strike, AK Bars Kazan got knocked out in the quarterfinals. New York Yankees syndrome.
In honor of my Bulgarian friends from Sofia and some comparative Cyrillic:
http://cska.net/
Hi Everyone!
Thanks a billion for all the kind words, its really very good of you. I notice MA hasnt said anything polite; no suprise there I guess. Maybe I can take you on in the article-writing stakes Mike?))
Kolya - you couldnt have called it any better, there hasnt been any elan with the team really since its birth, with the possible exception of their run in the Euro 2000 qualifiers. But that goalkeeping collapse did serious damage - had they reached Euro 2000, they may have done a lot better at Japan-Korea 2002.
Mike - most of the players were not RSFSR players in 1988, though many of them did play in Moscow e.g. Dasaeyev is Tatar but played for Spartak, indeed I think none of the players I mentioned are actually ethnic Russian. A lot of players from the other republics or indeed anywhere in the country wanted to go to Moscow, Kiev or Minsk, in much the same way any other workers did in the USSR. But Dynamo Kiev was probably the backbone of the team. As for all the UK countries merging, its not going to happen nor ever will - the fans dont want it.
Lyndon - the coach of Ukraine got into trouble last year I think for racist comments -something about the Ukrainian championship being full of Africans and some comment made about bananas/trees, I cant remember what. We all know the Russian view on many foreigners; its not suprising it has reached football. Russia and Ukraine are suffering the same way Europe is - not enough youngsters are playing the game, and already this is affecting quality, both in the Sbornaya and in the domestic championship. Until its rectified, players are going to be imported.
Tim: dont even go there! What a disaster both ourselves and Wales had in France. The Kiwis cant be too happy either. Its life and death for them. I see Henry has already been fired. Wales are looking for a new coach too.
I would have left a kind comment if I had known anything whatsoever about sports, which I don’t!
No to worry Chris! I know football isnt everyone’s cup of tea.
“Mike - most of the players were not RSFSR players in 1988, though many of them did play in Moscow e.g. Dasaeyev is Tatar but played for Spartak, indeed I think none of the players I mentioned are actually ethnic Russian. A lot of players from the other republics or indeed anywhere in the country wanted to go to Moscow, Kiev or Minsk, in much the same way any other workers did in the USSR. But Dynamo Kiev was probably the backbone of the team. As for all the UK countries merging, its not going to happen nor ever will - the fans dont want it.”
———————————————-
Tataria/Tatarstan was part of the RSFSR and its current successor RF. A resident RSFSR citizen isn’t necessarily always ethnic Russian. Regardless, Soviet and post-Soviet Russian law viewed/views the two no differently.
Soviet era Dynanmo Kiev was a powerhouse in Soviet football (soccer). Since the Soviet breakup, Dynamo Kiev has pretty much served as the Ukrainian national team. However, that seems to be changing. In more recent times, the Roman Akhmetov owned Shaktar Donetsk team is providing a stiffer competition to Dynamo Kiev. Last month Shaktar defeated Celtic 2-0.
As a comparison to how Dynamo Kiev has been used as a base for national team use, in Soviet times the CSKA Moscow ice hockey team typically had anywhere from 1/5-up to 1/2 of the Soviet national team on its roster. Those days have changed and for the better. Club league play is more fun with greater competition.
As for the UK reference, it’s interesting how all of its constituents unite together as one for the Olympics unlike some other major athletic competitions.
As for all the UK countries merging, its not going to happen nor ever will - the fans dont want it.
Nor should it. FIFA is an the federation of football associations, and the UK has 4 football associations, hence there are 4 international sides represented. There is no British FA, hence there is no British international team.
As for the likely success of a combined British team, with the exception of Ryan Giggs I’m struggling to think of any Welshman, N. Irishman, or Scotsman who would have made a great contribution to the English side over the past 5-10 years.
Much like how the Soviet breakup hasn’t dramatically hindered the Russian national ice hockey team in terms of having the best available talent.
Basketball and football (soccer) is another matter. Russia’s recent first place finish at the men’s FIBA Euro. championship was its first in quite some time. At last glance (haven’t followed up), the Russian junior football was doing well in a recent FIFA championship tournament.
Last sentence edit from last post:
At last glance (haven’t followed up), the Russian junior men’s (U-19) football team was doing well in a recent FIFA championship tournament.
”Soviet era Dynanmo Kiev was a powerhouse in Soviet football (soccer). Since the Soviet breakup, Dynamo Kiev has pretty much served as the Ukrainian national team. However, that seems to be changing. In more recent times, the Roman Akhmetov owned Shaktar Donetsk team is providing a stiffer competition to Dynamo Kiev. Last month Shaktar defeated Celtic 2-0.”
Tell us something we dont know. And beating Celtic isnt any sort of achievement at all, although they miraculously beat Milan last week. As for the Ukraine team now, a lot of the players are playing abroad. But certainly Dynamo is the production line.
Not as production line like in the way it used to be.
Shaktar won the last Ukrainian championship (’07), as well as the ones in ‘04,’03, ‘01, ‘00, ‘97-’99 and ‘94.
Its team color is a rather ironic orange.
”Not as production line like in the way it used to be.”
I meant not in the sense of players directly going to the national team, I meant its football academy, which produces players which first get in the Dynamo team or indeed are let go to other clubs in Ukraine. Eventually, some of them go abroad, or excel at Dynamo, and eventually get picked for Ukraine. Dynamo is undoubtedly a huge producer of Ukrainian players, and you’ll find most of the Ukraine national team came from there originally, even now. But certainly its no producing the top-end stars like Belanov etc that its did in the Soviet 80’s.
By the way Shaktar have bought their way to their league wins, which is a lot different to Dynamo’s grow-them-yourself policy.
How different?
In Soviet times, Dynamo was known to offer more perks than other clubs. Compared to most other Ukrainian clubs, Dynamo throws money around.
How evil for Shaktar to do the same.
”How different?”
Dynamo have only recently started to buy abroad, whilst Shaktar have been doing it for quite some time now. There’s nothing wrong with that - if the players arent being produced locally, they have to come from somewhere. Shaktar have always thrown more money around. Mike, this isnt about blue and orange Ukraine, so dont bother taking some sort of offence at any imagined slights at Shaktar. Thankfully for me, my whole life is not spent defending agendas or ethnic groups - maybe you should try the same. It’ll do great things for your health.
“Irishman on October 11, 2007 8:55 am ‘How different?’
Dynamo have only recently started to buy abroad, whilst Shaktar have been doing it for quite some time now. There’s nothing wrong with that - if the players arent being produced locally, they have to come from somewhere. Shaktar have always thrown more money around. Mike, this isnt about blue and orange Ukraine, so dont bother taking some sort of offence at any imagined slights at Shaktar. Thankfully for me, my whole life is not spent defending agendas or ethnic groups - maybe you should try the same. It’ll do great things for your health.”
****
You should worry about your own health. FYI, “my whole life is not spent defending agendas or ethnic groups.” BTW, what’s so wrong with doing such? Aren’t some lauded for doing so?
”You should worry about your own health. FYI, “my whole life is not spent defending agendas or ethnic groups.” BTW, what’s so wrong with doing such? Aren’t some lauded for doing so?”
I would have thought an analyst is there to objectively look at data and present findings, not come to a pre-determined Russia/Blue Ukraine/Serbia/PMR is right conclusion. But maybe we have different views on objectivity.
“Irishman on October 11, 2007 9:09 am ‘You should worry about your own health. FYI, ‘my whole life is not spent defending agendas or ethnic groups.’ BTW, what’s so wrong with doing such? Aren’t some lauded for doing so?’
I would have thought an analyst is there to objectively look at data and present findings, not come to a pre-determined Russia/Blue Ukraine/Serbia/PMR is right conclusion. But maybe we have different views on objectivity.”
***
The above quoted is getting off topic again.
As for his stated views:
Yes, as an analyst I state opinions based on facts, while taking into consideration other views.
Tataria/Tatarstan was part of the RSFSR and its current successor RF. A resident RSFSR citizen isn’t necessarily always ethnic Russian. Regardless, Soviet and post-Soviet Russian law viewed/views the two no differently.
You’re forgetting about Tatarstan law. Not that it’s particularly relevant, especially in this discussion, but there was a bit of a difference - Tatarstan’s 2000 Constitution allows for a person to be “a citizen of the Republic of Tatarstan” (Art. 21). In 1998, Tatarstan even contemplated introducing a law which would allow its citizens the right to renounce their Russian citizenship, although it never happened. According to Dmitry Trenin, as of 2001-02, it was “legally possible, from a Kazan point of view, to be a Tatarstan citizen without being at the same time a citizen of the Russian Federation.” This is certainly less relevant now that Putin has drawn Tatarstan and everyone else back into the federal fold, but still…probably better for an “analyst” not to oversimplify matters, even in a chat about footie.
I’m not forgetting anything Lyndon.
The mentioned Tatarstan point referred to a Tatar player during the Soviet era.
As for your quote of Trenin, document the number of Tatar and non-Tatar born residents of Tatarstan who aren’t citizens of Russia.
If I’m not mistaken, none exist.
As for why Lyndon’s “Putin has drawn Tatarstan and everyone else back into the federal fold.”:
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/8375-25.cfm
Simply put, having greater autonomy doesn’t always mean greater human rights.
As for your quote of Trenin, document the number of Tatar and non-Tatar born residents of Tatarstan who aren’t citizens of Russia.
There are a few, actually. Food shortages and other economic factors in the 1960s and 1970s drove a lot of Tatars and half-Tatars to Uzbekistan, who were hoping for better work. Following the collapse of the USSR, many wanted to return to Tatarstan, which they did - but as Uzbek citizens, the passport they inherited from the collapse. Once they were in Russia, they then applied for Russian citizenship based on their having been born in Russia, a process which took a couple of years (especially with the young men, who had to take national service in Russia before getting their passport).
The girl who I first travelled to Russia to see was half-Tatar half-Korean, her mother being a Russian born Tatar with an Uzbek passport, living in Nizhnekamsk, and applying for a Russian passport based on her parents and place of birth.
I should add that the prostitution scene in Dubai is full of ethnic Russians who have wound up with an Uzbek passport, and are desperately trying - along with their parents, who are Russian born - to get Russian citizenship.
As it happens, a friend of mine with an Uzbek father and Russian mother was born in Magadan, but grew up in a small town full of exiled Germans called Lenger in southern Kazakhstan, not far from Tashkent and the Uzbek border. He inherited a Kazakh passport, but was able to become a Russian citizen provided he did his national service (he did 5 years in the Russian paratroopers). I understand that despite being born in Russia to a Russian mother, he still had to wait a few years to become a Russian citizen.
I was referring to Tatar and non-Tatar born residents of Tatarstan, as opposed to those who left Russia.
Lyndon’s quote of Trenin suggested that post-Soviet Tatarstan has seen some of its native born residents formally dropping their RF citizenship status, while remainng citizens of Tatarstan.
“I was referring to Tatar and non-Tatar born residents of Tatarstan, as opposed to those who left Russia.”
****
For clarity sake, Tatarstan is part of Russia.
Lyndon’s quote of Trenin suggested that post-Soviet Tatarstan has seen some of its native born residents formally dropping their RF citizenship status, while remainng citizens of Tatarstan.
Trenin’s quote suggests no such thing. It merely states that this would be legally possible, not that it occurred. Lyndon even acknowledges that this never happened, using the simple expedient of actually saying so.
He wasn’t so clear which explains the follow-up question.
“According to Dmitry Trenin, as of 2001-02, it was legally possible, from a Kazan point of view, to be a Tatarstan citizen without being at the same time a citizen of the Russian Federation’.”
He wasn’t so clear which explains the follow-up question.
Lyndon’s post was perfectly clear, and there was no follow-up question.
The question was in the form of wanting to know if such a scenario existed. He wasn’t “prefectly clear” in establishing what you claim. Perhaps he was reasonably clear, but not “perfectly.” The follow-up served to clarify that post-Soviet Tatarstan hasn’t seen any of its native born residents formally drop their RF citizenship status, while remaining in Tatarstan as Tatar citizens.
Cyrll:
On Angela Davis, in the late 1980s, I knew the Cold War was over when Gennady Gerasimov sounded like a right wing Repub. to Davis and Alex Cockburn, during a NightLine show.
Sorry. Wrong thread.
October 14, feature with AK-47:
http://www.russiatoday.ru/spotlight/release/788/
This morning’s aired in NY BBC featured a segment on Russian football (soccer) hooliganism.
That “culture” references the English football hooligans (have trouble calling them fans) as their mentor.
Apparently, the Russian hooligans proudly believe that they’ve surpassed their English counterparts in rowdyness.
Never mind that the more valued victory is to be found on the pitch.
The BBC reports 6000 riot police to be present at today’s England-Russia match in Moscow.
British Fans Beaten Up In Moscow
http://www.russiatoday.ru/sports/news/15637
They won:
http://www.siberianlight.net/2007/10/17/football-inspired-russia-come-from-behind-to-beat-england-2-1/
Mike,
I’ve a piece written on it that I’m sending to Sean. I’m delighted Russia won, but they were extremely lucky - the match turned on a poor refereeing decision.
So I heard. I missed seeing the match.
As per Euro. matches, in the colonies we unfortunately only get Champions League matches on regular cable TV.
Football (soccer) is a lot like ice hockey. Lucky bounces can make the outplayed team a victor, in a way not that’s not as frequent with some other sports.
”Football (soccer) is a lot like ice hockey. Lucky bounces can make the outplayed team a victor, in a way not that’s not as frequent with some other sports.”
Football is especially prone to this, and is one of the reasons its so popular. In sports like ruby, cricket, the better team does generally win. Thats not to take away from Russia though, who, though they rode their luck, did deserve at least a draw and got a win in the end. All they need now is to win in Israel; they should manage that though. Hiddink is as cute as a fox.
Is it just one game, or don’t they’ve a home and way with Israel?
Israel shouldn’t be taken so lightly. You can be sure that they savor the role of spoiler.
Be curious to know how many, if any of former Soviet background are on the Israeli side? Israeli sports has noticeably benefitted from such folks.
”Is it just one game, or don’t they’ve a home and way with Israel?
Israel shouldn’t be taken so lightly. You can be sure that they savor the role of spoiler. ”
They’ve got Andorra and Israel to play just once, in Ramat-Gan - they’ve already drawn with them in Moscow. Israel are a pain in the arse these days, they’ve held France, Switzerland and Ireland and cant be taken too lightly. But England mauled them last month and I think Russia will get the win they need. Russia’s luck has turned, and that means a lot in football. I dunno off hand, but I’m fairly sure there are some FSU players in the team. To be honest I’m not an Israel fan - they came and drew in Dublin a few years ago and surely set a new world record for time-wasting and gamesmanship during the game. They arent a bad team, but England and Croatia have shown them what’s what, something neither Ireland nor France could manage in recent years.
As this somewhat humorous link notes, the Hrvats (Croats) take great pride in their football (soccer) team.
http://www.gumbopages.com/fridge/balkans.html
A recent National Geographic article on the sport’s popularity discusses Croat passion for football.
“… They, they, they …” We won. Not without some luck on our side, but we won. Now England is facing a hard time to be on Euro 2008. Israel won’t be a piece of cake, but I bet Russia will qualify for the tournament.
For Russia, too bad none of their club teams appear likely to make the Champion’s League ‘08 final in Moscow.
Hail to Putin and hail to Russia for showing love, and true representation for his folk. May God bless Russia.
Hail Putin for showing true anti-nationalism and pro-peace instead of wars for ideology, the proposition nationhood of the bastardized, africanized and mongrelized west.
Creepy.