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Reconcilable Contradictions
September 9, 2007 |
Russian youth’s embrace of Nazism doesn’t just happen in Russia. It’s also happens where one might not initially expect: Israel. Haaretz reports that Israel’s Interior Ministry arrested eight members, all aged 16 to 21, of a Nazi gang in Petah Tikva, a suburb outside of Tel Aviv. The arrests are the result of a year long investigation into street attacks and vandalism of the suburb’s Great Synagogue. The group, who is responsible for attacks on religious Jews, immigrants, homosexuals, homeless, and drug addicts, which they filmed, was found in possession of Nazi literature and posters, five kilos of explosives, a pistol, and an M-16. The M-16 was acquired when one of the youths was drafted into the IDF. He has since fled Israel back to Russia, leaving the rifle with his comrades. The Israelis plan to seek his extradition. Six of the eight have confessed their crimes to police. One of the two holding out is the gang’s leader, Eli Boanitov, who told police, “I won’t ever give up, I was a Nazi and I will stay a Nazi, until we kill them all I will not rest.”
Reports on the story are quick to deny the perpetrators’ “Jewishness.” Haaretz states that all eight youths “have distant ties to Judaism and nonetheless immigrated to Israel from the former Soviet Union under the Law of Return.” Y-Net states that all but one are “are non-Jewish immigrants” from Russia. The Jerusalem Post also emphasized that the youths were “immigrants” and not bona fide Jews. Such assertions have led Israeli politicans to call for a tightening of the definition of the Law of Return. Some are considering to revoke the youths of their Israeli citizenship. Parliamentarian Effi Eitam, a member of the right wing National Religious Party, said that the Law of Return has allowed Israel to become “a haven for people who hate Israel, hate Jews, and exploit the Law of Return to act on this hatred.” Another deputy, Eli Yishai, the ultra-Orthodox Minister of Trade and Industry told reporters, “We have to rid ourselves of this Satan who lives in the heart of Israel.” This is despite statements from Prime Minister Olmert that the incident shouldn’t be used to “criminalize an entire population nor make generalizations.” Instead, he said, “Israel, as a society, failed in educating the youths discovered to be neo-Nazis.” Other commentators were quick to stress that the incidents were isolated and not indicative of a wider trend.
While this may be true, the uproar such an isolated incident has caused signifies the youths’ apostasy. And the fact that the gang’s leader, Eli Buanitov is in fact a Jew makes his sin all the more significant. Eli Buanitov told police “I won’t have kids. My grandfather is half yid, so that this piece of trash doesn’t have ancestors with even the smallest percent of Jewish blood.” In interview with Israel’s Channel 10, Buanitov’s mother denied that her son was a Nazi and that “he is simply a boy and maybe he didn’t fully understand what [Nazism] is and maybe for him it was like a game.” She also emphasized that her son was indeed Jewish. “He was born in a Jewish family and was raised in a Jewish family. And he knows a lot about the war.” In response to a question about whether her mother was a Holocaust survivor, she replied, “Yes. When he was young he heard a lot of stories about it. And he knows very well how terrible it was. And how many Jews were killed.” As far as his Nazi tattoos, Mrs. Buatinova explained that they read in Yiddish, “God is with us.” In addition to his mother’s statements, Buatinov’s lawyer attempted to boost his client’s patriotic credentials. He stressed that the Buatinov family immigrated eight years ago, his client even has a brother serving in IDF combat units, that Eli attended a yeshiva high school for a twelfth grade, and has been working in a “security office in a very sensitive position” for the last year.
What is interesting about this case is not whether the youths indeed committed the crimes or if they sincerly embraced neo-Nazism as an ideology. What is at issue is whether the perpetrators are Jewish or not. The fact almost all of the youths are Russian immigrants with dubious Jewish connections allows many Israelis to rest easy. They can reason: Neo-Nazism is not some homegrown phenomenon but a disease injected into the body politic by the infiltration of some outside Other. But Buatinov’s existence threatens to rock the conceptual foundation of Jewishness itself. The idea of a neo-Nazi Jew is such an anathama that Israel has no law against it. If a Jew can also be a neo-Nazi, and worse become one in Israel, then what does that say about the conceptual coherency of Jewishness itself? The fact that Israeli society could breed its very negation seems to call into question the stability of its justification for existence. Put simply, the gang’s existence posits the question: in a post-Holocaust world, can a Jew be a Nazi?
The question, it seems, is too horrifying to ask, let alone answer. And this is why the gang’s non-Jewishness and antisemitism is being emphasized and not the fact that non-Jewish immigrants were also their victims. After all, Israeli racism against immigrants, especially Asians, Africans, and Russians, is common. The idea that Nazism could be embraced as an expression of that racism toward reveals the fact that two absolute contradictions–Jew and Nazi–are perhaps not so absolutely contradictory after all.
But these questions are likely to be ignored. If reader responses are any indication, targeting Israel’s Russian immigrant population as the breeding ground for wayward youth seems to be the comfortable route. Somehow, however, I doubt explaining racism with racism will do much to alleviate the problem. It will only shroud it further with nationalist fetishisms that will only inflame calls to exact the Russian cancer from Israeli’s otherwise healthy body politic.
Maya Haber provided all Hebrew translations.
Popularity: 33% [?]
Comments
430 Comments so far
Israel is a fairly liberal and politically free society, especially when compared to the basket-cases which surround it. One of the downsides of a liberal society is that it produces all manner of utter fuckwits and allows them to associate with others. Take a look at the assorted bands of halfwits which assemble in places like the US, UK, Denmark, or Germany for evidence of this.
Israel will deal with this one way or another, and I agree that although symbolically the presence of Jewish Nazis in Israel is huge, they probably number in the tens. I’d say that this is pushing it a little far:
The fact that Israeli society could breed its very negation seems to call into question the stability of its justification for existence.
And I know that your mentioning it does not come with any unsavoury intent, but I am personally rather uncomfortable with yet another reason being wheeled out to call into question Israel’s justification for its existence.
I think it is funny how the media and government is acting like this is some utterly unique singular event. Remember a few years ago when the “White Israeli Union” neo-Nazi group had its website taken down? With all the video of the neo-Nazis - giving the Hitler salute in their full IDF uniforms - talking about how to kill the Arabs for practice and how not to act like a “zhid” (Jew, in Russian)? Or then there were the skinhead gangs stormtrooping through Tel Aviv a few years ago too. Anyone who follows the “The Israeli Information and Assistance Center for the Victims of Anti-Semitism” ( http://pogrom.org.il/ ) which monitors neo-Nazis in Israel regularly knows this most recent event isn’t particularly unique. The problem is that the government and police “turn a blind eye” to Israeli neo-Nazis which gives them freedom to expand. Rest assured this cell isn’t all of them.
Here we have another aspect of Israel’s demographic crisis. In the rush to import olim whose only real criteria is they are not Arab or Muslim it can’t come as any surprise that that managed to import traditional Russian anti-Semites too. Most of these kids are Russians who were brought to Israel by their parents against their will, they don’t want to be Israeli and never did. HOWEVER, in the end, if Israel had not imported the million plus Russians - many, or even most, of them non-Jewish - then the non-Arab population between the river and the sea would already be a definite minority to the Arab population. There just aren’t enough legitimate Jews to maintain the current “Greater Israel,” thus the floods of non-Jewish olim, the mass conversions of Ethiopians, Indians, and Peruvian Indians, and so on. These measures - the desperation for any non-Arab/Muslim immigrants - undermines the “Jewish character” of Israel just as surely as any compromise with the native Palestinians would.
The very existence of Nazis in Israel IS what questions its justification to exist.
Israel by definition is a “national home for the Jewish people.” The only justification that allowed for the creation of the little racist state, sanctioned by the United Nations, was that it was to provide Jews with a state where they would be able to escape persecutions.
Yet, defining Jews according to blood line and implementing a law based on the Nuremberg Laws, Israel has admitted and “accepted” Nazis into its ranks. Now, that it no longer provides Jews with a safe heaven, why would it exist?
“Russian youth’s embrace of Nazism”
Isn’t that a little strong? It’s a vocal, but marginal movement. This is like saying “American youth’s embrace of anarchism” following the Seattle anti-WTO demonstrations. No offense, I just think you’re overstating things here a lot.
‘“zhid” (Jew, in Russian)?’
Actually, it’s an ethnic slur. “Zhid” is not Russian for “Jew” any more than “nigger” is English for “person from Africa.” The word is “evrei.”
I’m not exactly shocked that people living in Israel might become racists or bigots.
http://nuhairi.net/nucleus/media/1/20060720-From%20Israel%20with%20Love.jpg
Should I be?
What’s next? Black white supremacists?
Chrisius Maximus: re: “zhid” - you’re right, my mistake.
On a similar theme, there were Jews present at Iran’s recent Holocaust denial conference.
As is true with others, Jews are far from being monolithic.
———————————————-
“It will only shroud it further with nationalist fetishisms that will only inflame calls to exact the Russian cancer from Israeli’s otherwise healthy body politic.”
****
Yeah right!
Israel is considering to prosecute Israeli Druze who had the audacity to visit Syria.
Blame the Russians for Nazism. Meantime, where did that movement originate?
Chris is right about how some negatives like the topic of Russian Nazis get inflated.
On another front, Morgan Williams of the AUR posted Goble and RTTV on Ukraine, while omitting the criticism to Goble. AUR got those pieces from Quick Takes.
Put simply, the gang’s existence posits the question: in a post-Holocaust world, can a Jew be a Nazi?
Didn’t Ryan Gosling already address this possibility in The Believer?
I was just about to blog about this event, but Sean, you beat me to the punch.
A few comments. First, I agree that to over-emphasize the Russian/non-Jewishness of the perpetrators is dangerous, but to ignore the Russianness might also be a mistake. Before I even read beyond the headline, I had a sinking suspicion that it was another example of what I’m worried might be “A Diaspora of Hate.”
On the one hand, the cries that an entire community should not be stigmatized as racist are appropriate. It is the action of a small group of Russian-speakers. On the other hand, to ignore that these youth are connected to larger organized movements and cultural trends makes it impossible to address the deeper problems. I think that some combination of state-fostered nationalism in Russia, pan-European organized white supremacists, and broader social dislocations needs to be addressed, rather than just looking at Russians as innately or primordially racist (which obviously isn’t right).
Second, the element of hate/racism circulated through the Russian-langauge internet/diasporic formations is fascinating to me. Add this story to the attack on an Indian in California by Russian-speakers, attacks in Germany, and, of course, the recurrent problems in the former USSR. The only silver lining is that maybe more international pressure will now come down on Putin to do something about the growing problem of racial/ethnic violence, if people see the transnational dimensions of the problem.
Third, I’m curious about the ninth suspect who fled the country and whether he’s in Russia. The possibility brings up the curious idea of Russia as an exilic haven for fugitive racists, in light of the current Andrei Vusik (tied to the California murder) situation. (But presumably an Israeli citizen doesn’t have Russian citizenship and, thus, isn’t protected.)
I digress, and I guess I just put my blog post up here in your comments. (Apologies for that.)
Those no good Russians racists, who probably intermarry more with other groups (Jews included) than any other Euro group.
The US has yet to have one president or vice president of known Jewish background. Post-Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background.
As for the broken record comments, they’re an appropriate reply to the broken record observations which often fall short in fully discussing the involved issues at hand.
Like how 90% ethnic Slovenian Slovenia debates building one mosque in its capital where none exist. Meantime, Russia is probably leading Europe in the building of mosques.
BTW, I understand that the Kremlin has a kosher kitchen unlike the White House.
The unchecked hate continues to be the subtle to not so subtle Russia hating bigotry found in Eng. lang. mass media, academia and body politic.
On the subject of Jews and Russia, Diane von Furstenberg was born to a Greek Sephardic Jewish mother and Russian Jewish father:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_von_Furstenberg
I read that she very much identifies with her Russian background. Her two children have Russian names.
I read somewhere that during Stalin’s time in the USSR, it was considered somewhat appropriate for Soviet bigwigs to have Polish Jewish wives, who were considered witty. Note that Polish Jewish often categorizes Jews from Galicia and Vilnius.
“Eli Buanitov told police ‘I won’t have kids. My grandfather is half yid, so that this piece of trash doesn’t have ancestors with even the smallest percent of Jewish blood’.”
****
Highlighted comments like the above quoted are typical of the selective targetting out there. The overwhelming majority of people of ROC/Jewish background are the exact opposite. Their very background expresses tolerance.
An extreme offshoot of Kahane Chai (such a political species exists) calls the Russian Jews scum for not being Zionist enough.
Mike, it is simple why Russians are thought of as anti-Semitic by many Westerners. The West got a large proportion of its Jews from Russia, fleeing the pogroms circa 1905, which were a huge scandal in Europe and North America. Their descendents, much like their White Russian and Ukrainian Nationalist emigree counterparts, have Diaspora Disease, in which Russia is eternally 1905 as seen through the prism of family stories.
“I think that some combination of state-fostered nationalism in Russia”
But the state-sponsored nationalism is Great Power nationalism, not ethnic nationalism. Putin speaks out about the latter interminably. I mean, if you read the (ethnic) nationalist Russian press, you will see they do not like Putin. At all.
Chris, many Westerners are hypocrites. This includes a number of left of center types, who have some twisted views of pre-1917 Russia.
Once again, Russia NEVER had anything resembling Nazi Germany.
The propaganda of 1905 related to how many opposed Russia playing a leading global role.
The pogroms against American Blacks and Indians was much worse.
Once again as well: the pogroms were prevalent in non-Russian parts of the Russian Empire. Simultaneously, there were many Jews living in Russia proper, the territory comprising today’s Russian Federation.
The initial Jewish migration to the East was due to the prejudices it found in the West. This includes Germany, well before Hitler.
Sholom Aleichem is formally acknowledged by Russia as a Rusisan literary figure. This as the teflon Turks continue to deny its mass killing of Armenians. Something which the AUSTRIAN Hitler acknowledged.
The often Russia unfriendly Wikipedia cites (among others) Solzhenitsyn’s research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms#In_the_Russian_Empire
“The pogroms against American Blacks and Indians was much worse.”
When were there pogroms against Indians? military campaigns do not count?
When were hundreds of blacks lynched within the course of a month?
“the pogroms were prevalent in non-Russian parts of the Russian Empire.”
And lo and behold, thos regions — Ukraine, Poland, Romania — are also usually thought of as anti-Semitic.
Care of some Soviet policies, how many Jews as well as others were killed?
“Care of some Soviet policies, how many Jews as well as others were killed?”
Not relevant to discussion.
“And lo and behold, thos regions — Ukraine, Poland, Romania — are also usually thought of as anti-Semitic.”
****
Most defintely.
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“When were hundreds of blacks lynched within the course of a month?”
****
Ovberall, when compared to the pogroms, the figures of Blacks in lynchings is high. Among such instances was the Civil War era draft riots in New York City.
———————————————-
“When were there pogroms against Indians? military campaigns do not count?”
****
According to such logic: some pogroms against Jews, involving locals and some leftists don’t count.
You know anything about how Indians are treated on reservations? Some say that’s a form of genocide.
“Not relevant to discussion.”
****
Anything going against a certain slant fits that perception.
The propping of Ethan Burger (c/o Lavelle, JRL and RP) and censoring of those disagreeing with him contributes to the ignorance:
http://www.siberianlight.net/2007/04/10/the-best-books-about-russia-on-the-radio/
In prior instances, KKK ties with some local authorities was evident.
This was true as late as the last century and as far north of the US as Long Island.
Besides Wiki, one can find a plethora of credible source material on the extent of lynchings in America:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States
A very politically incorrect post, which no one has yet replied to:
“Maya on September 9, 2007 9:20 pm
The very existence of Nazis in Israel IS what questions its justification to exist.
Israel by definition is a ‘national home for the Jewish people.’ The only justification that allowed for the creation of the little racist state, sanctioned by the United Nations, was that it was to provide Jews with a state where they would be able to escape persecutions.
Yet, defining Jews according to blood line and implementing a law based on the Nuremberg Laws, Israel has admitted and ‘accepted’ Nazis into its ranks. Now, that it no longer provides Jews with a safe heaven, why would it exist?”
****
For the record, I find it a bit on the politically acid side.
I see how Russia is often caricatured.
Seeing how Israel and some of its policies have been discussed, here’re references to a couple of anti-Zionist Jews:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenni_brenner
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/authors.php?auid=14
A military campaign is not a pogrom.
Face it Mike, 19th-century Russia was a very anti-Semitic place. Deal with it.
“A military campaign is not a pogrom.
Face it Mike, 19th-century Russia was a very anti-Semitic place. Deal with it.”
****
On the first point, I wasn’t referring to such.
Face it Chris, much of what’s written on 19th century Russia is either ideologically driven and-or hypocritically applied, given what else was going on during that period. Deal with it.
19th century Russia didn’t nurture Hitler and his future accomplices.
19th century Russia wasn’t all about pogroms.
“Face it Chris, much of what’s written on 19th century Russia is either ideologically driven and-or hypocritically applied, given what else was going on during that period.”
Really? Ya think?
You went off on one of your “Russia is misunderstood!” rants, and then I explained why it is misunderstood. That is, the image of Russia in the West is largely determined by the accounts of Jews fleeing the turn-of-the-century pogroms. If there had been much black emigration from the US to, say, France during Jim Crow, then you would have lots of accounts of “eternal American racism” in French newspapers today.
“19th century Russia didn’t nurture Hitler and his future accomplices.”
It nurtured Alfred Rosenberg and the Protocols, which were very influential in Nazi Germany.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter. France didn’t nurture Mao; Guatemala didn’t nurture Torquemada. So what?
“19th century Russia wasn’t all about pogroms.”
Nobody said it was. PS. 19th-century America wasn’t all about killin’ Injuns. Nazi Germany wasn’t all about Auschwitz. What’s your point?
Come to think of it, I suspect the reason you are so obsessed with this pogrom issue is that they were largely committed by people to an extent ideologically similar to Mike Averko. They were committed largely by monarchists carrying the portrait of the Tsar and the two-headed eagle.
Leave it to Chris Doss to resort to the asshole route which befits his prior manner.
Among others, Roy, the elder of the Chubais brothers and Pankratov have shown an appreciation for some of what existed in Russia prior to 1917.
Herr Doss has an aversion to Russia’s national emblem.
Rosenburg was a Russia hating non-Russian. Much unlike many of his fellow Baltic Germans. The tsar rejected the protocols.
As for who committed much of the pogroms, “Russian monarchists” aren’t Moldovans, Ukrainian nationalists and leftists (the latter had some of those elements).
Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 11:22 am “19th century Russia wasn’t all about pogroms.”
Nobody said it was. PS. 19th-century America wasn’t all about killin’ Injuns. Nazi Germany wasn’t all about Auschwitz. What’s your point?
****
It isn’t obvious? You’ve some hypocritically warped views which don’t conform with actual reality.
Imperial Russia NEVER came close to matching what Jews faced in Germany, Austria and elsewhere.
Ditto Armenians in Turkey, as well as Blacks and Indians in America.
Cool jersey:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2007/09/10/091.html
“You’ve some hypocritically warped views which don’t conform with actual reality.”
What? That pogroms occurred?
“Herr Doss has an aversion to Russia’s national emblem.”
I do?
“The tsar rejected the protocols.”
Not because they were anti-Semitic. Because they were fake. He was, you know, an anti-Semite.
You don’t?
———————————————-
“Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 12:03 pm ‘You’ve some hypocritically warped views which don’t conform with actual reality.’
What? That pogroms occurred?”
****
Your hypcritically warped spin on the matter.
From the same guy who fends for the Cossacks’ role in those acts.
Oh yeah, he’ll say he knows and studied them.
Maybe if he did that with some others, he’d have a different take.
Then again…
“Your hypcritically warped spin on the matter.
From the same guy who fends for the Cossacks’ role in those acts.”
What the hell are you talking about?
Top of my last post was in reply to CD’s last one.
———————————————-
“’The tsar rejected the protocols.’”
Not because they were anti-Semitic. Because they were fake. He was, you know, an anti-Semite.”
****
Compared to Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler and some others of that period?
Different period having different standards.
“Different period having different standards.”
Did anybody say they didn’t?
Ya know, “he was less anti-Semitic than Hitler” is pretty damn weak.
“Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 12:09 pm ‘Your hypocritically warped spin on the matter.
From the same guy who fends for the Cossacks’ role in those acts.’
What the hell are you talking about?
****
I’m talking about how you’ll challenge some misguided stereotypes on matter which you’ve studied, while readily parrotting some other dubious claims.
It’s clear you know little about the White Russian community.
“Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 12:13 pm ‘Different period having different standards.’
Did anybody say they didn’t?
Ya know, ‘he was less anti-Semitic than Hitler’ is pretty damn weak.”
****
How about Kaiser Wilhelm and perhaps Henry Ford?
Whereas Nicholas rejected the Protocols, the Vatican (to my understanding) didn’t excommunicate Hitler.
So, Mike, was Nicholas II an anti-Semite or not?
Were, or were not, the October 1905 pogroms a reaction by pro-monarchists horrified by the introduction of a constitution? Did they, or did they not, march under the Tsar’s portrait? Did the Tsar, or did he not, personally regard them as a sign that his subjects still supported him and absolutism?
Did the Russian Empire, or did it not, have a blood libel trial as late as 1913?
Was there, or was there not, a pro-monarchist group known as the chernosotentsy terrorizing Jews and other people seen as anti-monarchist?
Did thousands of Jews flee the pogroms, or did they not?
And what about this whole Pale of Settlement thingie?
For that matter, elements in the Vatican helped to shield Nazis at war’s end.
“Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 12:21 pm So, Mike, was Nicholas II an anti-Semite or not?
Were, or were not, the October 1905 pogroms a reaction by pro-monarchists horrified by the introduction of a constitution? Did they, or did they not, march under the Tsar’s portrait? Did the Tsar, or did he not, personally regard them as a sign that his subjects still supported him and absolutism?
Did the Russian Empire, or did it not, have a blood libel trial as late as 1913?
Was there, or was there not, a pro-monarchist group known as the chernosotentsy terrorizing Jews and other people seen as anti-monarchist?
Did thousands of Jews flee the pogroms, or did they not?
And what about this whole Pale of Settlement thingie?”
***
An Eng. lang. mass media tact.
On his last point, America had and has actual versions of the “Pale of Settlement”. Plenty of Jews lived in Russia proper during that paper law.
Note how he broadly sterotypes in the very same manner he rejects when his beloved Cosascks are discussed.
I already addressed those other points of his.
Come on Mike, say it: “The Russian Empire was very anti-Semitic.” It will be therapeutic. Why can’t you admit it? It’s weird.
What’s next? “Slavery of blacks wasn’t so bad! They had serfdom in Russia at the same time! Some blacks even had slaves of their own! What are these hypocritical double standards?”
You know that romantic comedy formula where two people start off hating each other, but also can’t stay apart from each other, and their edginess conceals a hidden attraction - and then something happens, some moment of weakness, they both break down and fall in love with each other?
Something was just reminding me of that, I forget what it was.
Good catch by Newman on the Holocaust Denials.
There is something about the aggressiveness of Israel and the atmosphere it creates that makes this a non-surprise. That isn’t to say there isn’t a reason for that atmosphere, given the state of their neighbors. But if the anger, emotions, disenfranchisement, what have you of muslim states spills over into terrorism - why should we be surprised that similar youths in Israel wouldn’t turn to something equally ugly?
“I already addressed those other points of his.”
You didn’t address a damn one of them.
Perhaps you should move to Dingburg: http://zippythepinhead.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=9-Sep-07&Category_Code=sun2007&Product_Count=37.
gabba-gabba-hey
I refuse to let Billy Crystal play me.
Chris has a way of distorting.
Blacks in America had it worse than Jews in Russia.
The former doesn’t excuse the latter as I’d previously indicated.
At the same time, I’m not going to suck up to BS/PC horse shit.
BTW, during WW I, many Jews in non-Russia proper/Russian Empire teritory fled into Russia proper when the German army attacked.
I replied to your points Chris.
There were prior threads.
re: http://zippythepinhead.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=9-Sep-07&Category_Code=sun2007&Product_Count=37.
He’s deflecting his flaws unto me again.
“But if the anger, emotions, disenfranchisement, what have you of muslim states spills over into terrorism - why should we be surprised that similar youths in Israel wouldn’t turn to something equally ugly?”
Ah! I real person! What a breath of fresh air!
I asked a friend of mine in Israel about the Nazi subject, and he says it’s likely in part a reaction by Israelis who don’t consider themselves Jews to the constant hyping of Jewishness by the Israeli government and educational system, compounded by a general negative attitude by older israelis toward immigrants fron the FSU that has economic repurcussions. Sort of “well, we’re outsiders, and by God we’ll make you know it!”
Especially during the Cold War, many Israeli Jews from Arab countries were somewhat jealous of the USSR emigres. The Israeli government would help the latter in a way that the “Oriental” Jews felt were biased. On the other hand, the USSR emigres to Israel were often highly skilled professionals unlike many of the “Oriental” Jews.
Since 2003, considerably more people leave Israel for Russia than vice versa.
A Cold War era politically incorrect saying which made the rounds in Brighton Beach:
“Life in America isn’t as good as we thought it was and life in the USSR wasn’t as bad as we thought it was.”
“Life in America isn’t as good as we thought it was and life in the USSR wasn’t as bad as we thought it was.”
Heck, based on the few Brighton Beacher’s I’ve spoke to, I think they STILL say that there.
The problem - Brighton Beach isn’t America. If your impression of life here is based upon that small enclave, then of course it isn’t going to seem much better than Russia or the former USSR.
I think this is wandering considerably from Jewish Nazi’s.
Maybe Sean’s Russia Blog should have a chat room.
What hours are you two operating on anyway? Seems I wake up, check my email at 6:30 am or so, and if I check a volatile thread on this forum Chris and Mike have been going at it all night.
Well, not going at it, but bickering/antagonizing each other.
“Well, not going at it, but bickering/antagonizing each other.”
Cue music?
Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 10:56 am
“A military campaign is not a pogrom.
Face it Mike, 19th-century Russia was a very anti-Semitic place. Deal with it.”
I think we can say this about Europe as well… I mean - very anti-Semitic place.
Military campaign is not a pogrom unless it’s aim is to eliminate all Jews.
PS. I have no problems with Jews. 1/5 of our family friends are Jews. And among upper management level (at least in my place) every third one is Jew (and as you know they don’t make 33% of population).
Maybe this is the real problem in Russia. Notice how both Ivanov and Averko constantly count Jews?
The one stated that “Post-Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background.” while the other counted the number of Jewish family friends and Jews in managerial positions in his company.
A Russian friend of mine once told me that his mother had always wanted him to marry a Jew (she was Kalmyk and had probably never met a Jew in her life) because she wanted his children to be successful.
Is that not antisemitism?
“Is that not antisemitism?”
It’s stereotyping. It has to be a negative (and false) stereotype to be anti-semitism.
Yes - I was going to point out the “anti” part of that word.
Let’s do a show of hands, who here is Jewish?
Here a Jew, there a Jew, everywhere a Jew, Jew.
It’s interesting that the grandmother and mother are standing up for one of the accused - insisting he’s not a Nazi. I thought ignoring your children and being in total denial about their bad behavior was an American trait.
I’ve also read some bits about half-Jewish or Russian Jewish immigrants being treated as less than full Jews in Israel. There was a quote from one of the boys families about how it wasn’t easy being half-jewish in Israel, etc.
Do you know the old Soviet joke?
A Soviet Jew is preparing to emigrate to Israel. His father tells him, “remember, son — here, you’re just a Jew. There, you’ll be just a Russian.”
They’re immigrants, outsiders, looked down on by older-generation Israelis and in an economically worse off situation. Not as bad as Ethiopean or Arab Jews, but still not great.
[...] Russia Blog writes: “Russian youth’s embrace of Nazism doesn’t just happen in Russia. It’s also happens [...]
Oh please, “positive” stereotyping is the beginning of anti everything.
The stereotype of Jews is that they are successful - isn’t that also the source of their trouble? I could hear in the “among upper management level (at least in my place) every third one is Jew (and as you know they don’t make 33% of population)” the smell of “Jews are taking over our country.”
And as for Israel - don’t remember who said that it was a liberal free country - have you ever heard of a liberal state based on religious law? Are there other free countries where someone can’t get married because he doesn’t officially belong to one religion or another?
“The stereotype of Jews is that they are successful - isn’t that also the source of their trouble? ”
The classic Russian anti-Semitic stereotype is a bit stronger. They’re supposed to be secretly running the world for obscene purposes, usually in cohorts with the Masons. And they killed Christ.
Jews actually do tend to do pretty well materially and socially speaking in contemporary Russian society.
Maya on September 10, 2007 5:54 pm
“Maybe this is the real problem in Russia. Notice how both Ivanov and Averko constantly count Jews?
The one stated that “Post-Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background.” while the other counted the number of Jewish family friends and Jews in managerial positions in his company.”
I’m not counting them - I’m living with them.
And they are not top manager in “my company”. They are top managers (or bosses) everywhere. The only reason I “counting” them - this topic is about them. 4/5 of our family friends and 2/3 of bosses are not Jews :)))
Frankly - I know the nationality of very few of them. As I don’t care much about it.
And what is nationality of a person if mother has Asian/Russian (who are they - Russians?) roots and father has Northen Scandinavian/British roots? “Pure white” with “pure yellow” and Russian layer between :))
Some more on the Israeli/Russian neo-Nazis:
http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/13874
As a follow-up to the prior post: misrepresenting what people say can be Nazi like as well.
I see that Mike’s madness is progressing.
Madness… the wind howls through the gables… the gibbous moon hangs bloated in the sky… screeches reverberate through the asylum halls of Mike’s mind, the pandamonium unleashed… “Hark? what is that I hear? is it Ethan Burger? He follows me, yeessss… He is in the wall, I tell you! And you call me mad?!?!? They laughed at me at Adelphi… I’ll show you, I’ll show Ethan Burger, I’ll show you all… it’s just a little cut, don’t be afraid, i needs it ta make the bad-gunky come out, if’n I don’t, Ethan Burger gonna come git me, he’s a-gonna come and git us all… What was that I saw in the black pit of N’kai where no man walks? Was it Ethan Burger’s immense form I saw rise and stumble through the depths? Cthulhu fthagn! Mwa-ha-ha-ha!”
Or so they found scrawled in blood over the quivering body of the wretched inmate. He had bitten off his own tongue.
A related article to this discussion:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2007/09/11/011.html
In some circles, calling Jews successful and smart is as bigoted as tagging them as money grubbing…..
At times, there’s a bit too much over-analysis on such matter.
Nobody seems to consider it bigoted when Russians are described as proud and arrogant. This was said on a recent radio show by a Polish commentator. Rather ironic, in that some would tag that label on a good number of Poles.
The bottom line is that there’s a good deal of selective sensitivity out there.
You guys aren’t going to do this all night are you?
It doesn’t beat the Lavelle/Babich (snooze) duo on RTTV?
Forgot this one from Mr. Shedd:
“There was a quote from one of the boys families about how it wasn’t easy being half-jewish in Israel, etc.”
***
The 1969 Costa Gavras directed movie “Z” (great movie) starring Yves Montand and Irene Papas about the Greek junta had a related scene.
When reviewing the files of dissidents, one of the security personnel isolates a Jewish dissident and says that he’s half Jewish and adds that half Jews are the worst because they think they’re superior to everyone else.
I remember seeing that film and recollecting how that scene drew laughter from the movie theater’s audience.
How can I overlook this bias from CD:
“The classic Russian anti-Semitic stereotype is a bit stronger.”
***
More like clASSic from him.
The Spanish Inquisition and Nazism came from the West and not Russia.
Henry Ford wasn’t Russian. Ditto Posse Comatatus or however the **** it’s properly pronounced.
Last week, a LI synagogue was vandalized with anti-Jewish graffiti. The ADL can detail how such acts are quite common in the US.
Here’s a question in Jewish philosophy:
If a married Jewish man is walking alone in the park, and expresses an opinion without anyone around to hear him, is he still wrong?
I had some hope for some decent discussion on this thread. But the usual forces prevailed in sending it into a descending spiral into nonsense. It always seems to happen when I’m asleep. What am I gonna have to do, close down comments every night before bed? Hire a hall monitor?
Well, there was some decent discussion before.
Does your Israeli SO have any opinion on this?
Mike, in my slew of comment deletions, I accidentally deleted one of your more, ahem, substantive comments where you said that Maya was full of shit and they declare yourself to be the “only true blue Jew.” What ever the fuck that’s supposed mean.
“Maya misrepresented our comments Ivanov. I know how to address such misinformation.
Wally, regarding some of your comments about the discussion, I was recently likened to an IMOM (International Man Of Mystery)/MOL (Man Of Leisure). Once in awhile, it’s not a bad idea to throw a 90 plus MPH fastball under the chin of a wise ass. Understand that there’re different forms of wise assism. Some forms are more progressive than others.
Maya, you’re so full of shit. I didn’t initiate the discussion about Jews here. Rather, I corrected some of the false impressions about how Russians at large view Jews. Your somewhat suggestive tone of my being anti-Jewish is groundless horse shit. Peter Lavelle’s pal Ethan Burger failed miserably at trying to put that label on me. Shortly thereafter, Tim Newman backed my opposition to a series of anti-Jewish remarks made at a Siberian Light discussion. From the looks of things, I might be the only true blue Jew (if you may) in this discussion. You obviously don’t like what I’ve to say. In the long run, misrepresenting what I’ve said will flop.
Shalom!
It’s not so surprising that a couple of Jewish kids in Israel from Russia or the CIS turn out to be anti-Semitic given the social/cultural acceptance for ethnic stereotyping here — regardless of ethnicity. One only has to recall Zhirinovsky’s famous statement about his nationality: “My mother was Russian and my father was a lawyer.” Or a bizarre pseudo talk show with Prokhanov insisting that “all the oligarchs were Jews,” but that this was fine in some ways, since “Jews are really smart.” Or even a segment in a sitcom aired on NTV last night. One of the characters is meeting with her father and his second wife, who have emigrated to Israel. The second wife (who is Jewish) says, “I always say, the only problem with Israel is that it’s filled with Jews! You just can’t imagine what it’s like to live with only Jews…” As long as this sort of thing is acceptable to say on national TV, some kids who aren’t very smart and who spend time reading much worse stuff are going to turn into skinheads.
Understand that there’re different forms of wise assism.
There’re? That isn’t a word, is it?
Hmmm … that might suspiciously fall into the less than progressive form of wise-assism.
Regarding earlier comments, I just was noticing how certain individuals can’t stay away from each other. Yin and Yang. Frick and Frack. Laurel and Hardy. George and Gracie.
Why, in light of that, I even went out of my way to affirm something that Mr. Newman said. Heck, I even liked his Jewish husband - is he still wrong joke.
Or perhaps I am misjudging and it was my “here a Jew, there a Jew” comment that was less progressive. I had noticed a general tone of “I’m more Jewish than you” reverberating through the tail end of the thread.
By the way - off topic for Israeli neo-nazi’s but on topic for hate crimes: Had anyone else noticed this recent story?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/11/AR2007091100544.html
Six white people in West Virgina kidnapped a young black woman and abused her in almost every way imaginable. One of the questions these sorts of stories always bring to my mind (other than the nature of hatred and violence the U.S.) is how such stories play differently here than if they happened in Russia or elsewhere.
I know that is a common Mike Averko theme, I certainly am guilty of pointing that out as well, when I think it is appropriate.
Actually Mab I can easily imagine somebody making that Jewish joke on US television, on MAD TV or something like that (is that show still around?).
Nope, US TV would never air an anti-Semitic joke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue3EOslwwd0
Has the story about the Russian skinheads in Israel been covered in the mainstream US media?
There is a line there between humor and satire. I recall Borat’s infamous film, which was so clearly over-the-top as regards poor Borats impressions of Jews as to be satire.
However, you can certainly make jokes without the hint of “wink-wink” and be cutting on Jews.
Damn, Maximus - I can’t believe you didn’t say anything about there’re. What’re you thinking?
“There’re” Brrrrr. I’ll pretend it doesn’t exist.
I’ve never seen Borat, but I suspect that if it had been made in Russia its existence would be adduced in some quarters as a sign of Russian anti-Semitism.
Has the story about the Russian skinheads in Israel been covered in the mainstream US media?
Depends on what you mean by the mainstream media.
I don’t watch television news, so I can’t speak to whether ABC, NBC, CNN, etc. have been reporting much about it on TV.
I don’t usually catch much news via radio, but I can say there was a passing reference to it on a “Headlines” section on the local sports radio station yesterday morning during the commute to work.
Certainly the larger newspapers, Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, etc. have all picked up on the story.
Topics of interest in Israel and the Middle East are often reported by mainstream TV here in the US. Speculation as to why this is could make you sound like Mel Gibson. However, much of the US foreign policy and worries center around conflicts in the Middle East, so suffice it to say that such topics attract concerned viewers and sell newspapers.
I’ve never seen Borat, but I suspect that if it had been made in Russia its existence would be adduced in some quarters as a sign of Russian anti-Semitism.
Even having not been made in Russia, it was seen as a sign (by some) of Kazakhstan anti-Semitism. Borat played it straight as a character, but so exaggerated as to provide the hint that it was meant to be satire or spoof.
Literally, there was a scene where it is supposed to be the annual “Running of the Jews” in his Kazakh village. A person is a large headed troll-like costume parades through the street. The large ugly She-Jew lays a “jew-egg” in the street. The children are encouraged to throw things at the ugly Jew creatures.
While at country and western bar/pub in the U.S., he sings a song entitled “Throw the Jew Down the Well (so my country can be free)” and encourages the crowd to sing and clap along (which they do).
It was pretty damn over-the-top.
See, if this bit were done by students not at Duke, but at MGU, it would be interpreted very differently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viwSywMkfqs
I don’t mean to overdo it, but for yet more anti-Semitic jokes in mainstream US popular entertainment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I_c0pYmdu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMjaR5QTz3w&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMLAvGouvK0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UihUqDzAJ18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNc4A9zXqa0&mode=related&search=
I didn’t realize Family Guy had so much of this stuff. Robin Williams also does some “goofy Chinaman” stuff I notice.
I didn’t realize Family Guy had so much of this stuff.
Is there any minority group which Family Guy doesn’t abuse? I love that show.
Sorry, but I don’t get you guys. Despite Mr Averko’s protests to the contrary, Russia and the USSR have historically been quite anti-Semitic. Now there is a growing problem with nationalism, chauvinism, and hate crimes. This particular case strikes me as a sad story of some terribly mixed up kids, who probably probably picked up a lot of anti-Semitism through the mainstream and other media.
When this sort of thing happens in the US, and it does, aren’t you appalled? Didn’t you read about that horrible case of 6 white people torturing a black woman for a week and gasp? Didn’t you think about the history of racism in the US and think this is another example of it?
Then why the attempt to either downplay the seriousness of a similar problem in Russia (”it happens everywhere, the US is no better, you’re “biassed” to focus on it”) or state that it’s blown out of proportion by the dreadful Western media?
If this were the one and only case of Russian teen skin-heads that has occurred in the last year and all the newspapers picked it up — yes, it would show “biassed coverage.” But nationalism and hate crimes, including anti-Semitic hate crimes, are an enormous and growing problem in Russia. Of course journalists write about it. Of course people are concerned about it. Of course people pay attention if kids at MGU do a chauvinistic skit or whatever — because it happening in a particular political and social context — of thousands of violent hate crimes a year and organized nationalist-fascist youth groups that are picking up, by conservative estimate, about 10000 kids a year.
That’s a problem, guys. If most foreign students in the US were subjected to verbal insults and dozens were beaten up and killed every year, wouldn’t you raise the alarm? I sure would. Then why, when that’s happening in Russia, are you trying to downplay it?
While I’ve been steadfastly trying to avoid the horror of this thread, I will, for solidarity’s sake, add: “I’m with Mab.”
“Then why, when that’s happening in Russia, are you trying to downplay it?”
I wasn’t aware I was.
But I think it’s due to different reasons than you appear to think. I think it’s mostly due to massive migration, which is a first in Russian history, and the economic disenfranchisement of a lot of the population that is a result of what happened in the 1990s. I don’t think it is a result of the mass media or current government policy.
“Is there any minority group which Family Guy doesn’t abuse? I love that show.”
It is a good show. I just suspect that if Mab had seen The Scarejew on a Russian TV program, she (? — sorry if I’m getting your gender wrong Mab) would interpret it differently. Which was in a roundabout way my point.
mab & co.
There’re some who lean towards assigning a collective guilt on the German people for what happened during WW II. The supporting point being that a very educated people should’ve known better. This view is common among a good number of older WW II era Jews (some of my relatives included, with others taking the opposite view).
I don’t assign collective guilt for several reasons. I see how grossly unfair and in some instances bigoted it’s to make that claim of Russians. Marx thought that Russia wasn’t ripe for his envisaged revolution. Heck, among European nations, Germany wasn’t the most ripe of countries for a Nazi like movement. During WW II, there’re credible accounts about how some non-Germans behaved more Nazi like than the Germans.
One of several left professors of mine (a German military history expert) stated that what happened in Germany could’ve easily happened elsewhere. I very much agree with him. Let’s look at: the Germans were a very educated people who should’ve known better claim. I see how mab and at least one other participant at this thread repeat the bogus notion of Russia standing out as a anti-Jewish place when compared to other European nations. These are educated folks making that claim which has been passed down to them by the kind of skewed Eng. lang. mass media and academia presentations out there. As intelligent people, why don’t they bother second guessing such a dubious claim?
In lieu of the broken record horse shit about Russia, I’ll repeat some earlier points, which don’t seem to resonate with some:
- Russia never had anything matching Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition.
- Jews arrived in Russia after fleeing discrimination in the West.
- Among Euros, Jews have probably intermarried most with Russians.
- Whereas the US has never had a president or vice president of known Jewish background in its lengthy enough history, post Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background during its short existence.
- It’s my understanding that the kremlin has a Kosher kitchen unlike the White House.
Did anyone see the very excellent film “Europa”, which is based on the story of a WW II era Jew? During the film, there’s a scene where upon the implementation of Molotov-Ribbentrop, Jews are fleeing the Nazi occupied area to the Soviet one, with Poles doing the reverse.
Someone mentioned Prokhonov. Note that he has been employed by “liberal” Ekho Moskvy, which to my knowledge seems to mute non-bigoted and intelligently presented Russocentric views.
Whereas the US has never had a president or vice president of known Jewish background in its lengthy enough history, post Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background during its short existence.
Why are you comparing US Presidents with Russian Prime Ministers? Why not compare US Presidents with Russian Presidents?
Sean:
While citing a Y-Net dispatch in my last QT (dealing with the apparent Israeli over-flght into Syria), I left out the same day piece from that venue which dealt with the Israeli/Russian skinheads.
My anti-censorship/censorship in knowing how that latter piece would get picked up elsewhere. It’s not as if QT hasn’t covered issues pertaining to intolerance. For example, QT dealt with Gleb Pavlovsky’s stupid comments about David Miliband. Though stupid, his comments weren’t were anti-Jewish. They were stupid because it gave the hate Russia side a talking point. This coming from a supposed semi-Russian government connected “spin doctor”. Some in that category leave a good deal to be desired when it comes to providing intelligent insight. The kind of criticism about Russia not getting picked up at outlets like JRL.
It often appears somewhat criminal for taking a contrary approach to what’s being presented as worhty news stories and political views.
Tim:
If America is so tolerant, why no Jewish or Black or female VP?
A rhetorical questi