Reconcilable Contradictions

Israel is a fairly liberal and politically free society, especially when compared to the basket-cases which surround it. One of the downsides of a liberal society is that it produces all manner of utter fuckwits and allows them to associate with others. Take a look at the assorted bands of halfwits which assemble in places like the US, UK, Denmark, or Germany for evidence of this.

Israel will deal with this one way or another, and I agree that although symbolically the presence of Jewish Nazis in Israel is huge, they probably number in the tens. I’d say that this is pushing it a little far:

The fact that Israeli society could breed its very negation seems to call into question the stability of its justification for existence.

And I know that your mentioning it does not come with any unsavoury intent, but I am personally rather uncomfortable with yet another reason being wheeled out to call into question Israel’s justification for its existence.

I think it is funny how the media and government is acting like this is some utterly unique singular event. Remember a few years ago when the “White Israeli Union” neo-Nazi group had its website taken down? With all the video of the neo-Nazis – giving the Hitler salute in their full IDF uniforms – talking about how to kill the Arabs for practice and how not to act like a “zhid” (Jew, in Russian)? Or then there were the skinhead gangs stormtrooping through Tel Aviv a few years ago too. Anyone who follows the “The Israeli Information and Assistance Center for the Victims of Anti-Semitism” ( http://pogrom.org.il/ ) which monitors neo-Nazis in Israel regularly knows this most recent event isn’t particularly unique. The problem is that the government and police “turn a blind eye” to Israeli neo-Nazis which gives them freedom to expand. Rest assured this cell isn’t all of them.

Here we have another aspect of Israel’s demographic crisis. In the rush to import olim whose only real criteria is they are not Arab or Muslim it can’t come as any surprise that that managed to import traditional Russian anti-Semites too. Most of these kids are Russians who were brought to Israel by their parents against their will, they don’t want to be Israeli and never did. HOWEVER, in the end, if Israel had not imported the million plus Russians – many, or even most, of them non-Jewish – then the non-Arab population between the river and the sea would already be a definite minority to the Arab population. There just aren’t enough legitimate Jews to maintain the current “Greater Israel,” thus the floods of non-Jewish olim, the mass conversions of Ethiopians, Indians, and Peruvian Indians, and so on. These measures – the desperation for any non-Arab/Muslim immigrants – undermines the “Jewish character” of Israel just as surely as any compromise with the native Palestinians would.

The very existence of Nazis in Israel IS what questions its justification to exist.

Israel by definition is a “national home for the Jewish people.” The only justification that allowed for the creation of the little racist state, sanctioned by the United Nations, was that it was to provide Jews with a state where they would be able to escape persecutions.

Yet, defining Jews according to blood line and implementing a law based on the Nuremberg Laws, Israel has admitted and “accepted” Nazis into its ranks. Now, that it no longer provides Jews with a safe heaven, why would it exist?

“Russian youth’s embrace of Nazism”

Isn’t that a little strong? It’s a vocal, but marginal movement. This is like saying “American youth’s embrace of anarchism” following the Seattle anti-WTO demonstrations. No offense, I just think you’re overstating things here a lot.

‘“zhid” (Jew, in Russian)?’

Actually, it’s an ethnic slur. “Zhid” is not Russian for “Jew” any more than “nigger” is English for “person from Africa.” The word is “evrei.”

I’m not exactly shocked that people living in Israel might become racists or bigots.

http://nuhairi.net/nucleus/media/1/20060720-From%20Israel%20with%20Love.jpg

Should I be?

What’s next? Black white supremacists?

Chrisius Maximus: re: “zhid” – you’re right, my mistake.

On a similar theme, there were Jews present at Iran’s recent Holocaust denial conference.

As is true with others, Jews are far from being monolithic.

———————————————-

“It will only shroud it further with nationalist fetishisms that will only inflame calls to exact the Russian cancer from Israeli’s otherwise healthy body politic.”

****

Yeah right!

Israel is considering to prosecute Israeli Druze who had the audacity to visit Syria.

Blame the Russians for Nazism. Meantime, where did that movement originate?

Chris is right about how some negatives like the topic of Russian Nazis get inflated.

On another front, Morgan Williams of the AUR posted Goble and RTTV on Ukraine, while omitting the criticism to Goble. AUR got those pieces from Quick Takes.

Put simply, the gang’s existence posits the question: in a post-Holocaust world, can a Jew be a Nazi?

Didn’t Ryan Gosling already address this possibility in The Believer?

I was just about to blog about this event, but Sean, you beat me to the punch.

A few comments. First, I agree that to over-emphasize the Russian/non-Jewishness of the perpetrators is dangerous, but to ignore the Russianness might also be a mistake. Before I even read beyond the headline, I had a sinking suspicion that it was another example of what I’m worried might be “A Diaspora of Hate.”

On the one hand, the cries that an entire community should not be stigmatized as racist are appropriate. It is the action of a small group of Russian-speakers. On the other hand, to ignore that these youth are connected to larger organized movements and cultural trends makes it impossible to address the deeper problems. I think that some combination of state-fostered nationalism in Russia, pan-European organized white supremacists, and broader social dislocations needs to be addressed, rather than just looking at Russians as innately or primordially racist (which obviously isn’t right).

Second, the element of hate/racism circulated through the Russian-langauge internet/diasporic formations is fascinating to me. Add this story to the attack on an Indian in California by Russian-speakers, attacks in Germany, and, of course, the recurrent problems in the former USSR. The only silver lining is that maybe more international pressure will now come down on Putin to do something about the growing problem of racial/ethnic violence, if people see the transnational dimensions of the problem.

Third, I’m curious about the ninth suspect who fled the country and whether he’s in Russia. The possibility brings up the curious idea of Russia as an exilic haven for fugitive racists, in light of the current Andrei Vusik (tied to the California murder) situation. (But presumably an Israeli citizen doesn’t have Russian citizenship and, thus, isn’t protected.)

I digress, and I guess I just put my blog post up here in your comments. (Apologies for that.)

Those no good Russians racists, who probably intermarry more with other groups (Jews included) than any other Euro group.

The US has yet to have one president or vice president of known Jewish background. Post-Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background.

As for the broken record comments, they’re an appropriate reply to the broken record observations which often fall short in fully discussing the involved issues at hand.

Like how 90% ethnic Slovenian Slovenia debates building one mosque in its capital where none exist. Meantime, Russia is probably leading Europe in the building of mosques.

BTW, I understand that the Kremlin has a kosher kitchen unlike the White House.

The unchecked hate continues to be the subtle to not so subtle Russia hating bigotry found in Eng. lang. mass media, academia and body politic.

On the subject of Jews and Russia, Diane von Furstenberg was born to a Greek Sephardic Jewish mother and Russian Jewish father:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_von_Furstenberg

I read that she very much identifies with her Russian background. Her two children have Russian names.

I read somewhere that during Stalin’s time in the USSR, it was considered somewhat appropriate for Soviet bigwigs to have Polish Jewish wives, who were considered witty. Note that Polish Jewish often categorizes Jews from Galicia and Vilnius.

“Eli Buanitov told police ‘I won’t have kids. My grandfather is half yid, so that this piece of trash doesn’t have ancestors with even the smallest percent of Jewish blood’.”

****

Highlighted comments like the above quoted are typical of the selective targetting out there. The overwhelming majority of people of ROC/Jewish background are the exact opposite. Their very background expresses tolerance.

An extreme offshoot of Kahane Chai (such a political species exists) calls the Russian Jews scum for not being Zionist enough.

Mike, it is simple why Russians are thought of as anti-Semitic by many Westerners. The West got a large proportion of its Jews from Russia, fleeing the pogroms circa 1905, which were a huge scandal in Europe and North America. Their descendents, much like their White Russian and Ukrainian Nationalist emigree counterparts, have Diaspora Disease, in which Russia is eternally 1905 as seen through the prism of family stories.

“I think that some combination of state-fostered nationalism in Russia”

But the state-sponsored nationalism is Great Power nationalism, not ethnic nationalism. Putin speaks out about the latter interminably. I mean, if you read the (ethnic) nationalist Russian press, you will see they do not like Putin. At all.

Chris, many Westerners are hypocrites. This includes a number of left of center types, who have some twisted views of pre-1917 Russia.

Once again, Russia NEVER had anything resembling Nazi Germany.

The propaganda of 1905 related to how many opposed Russia playing a leading global role.

The pogroms against American Blacks and Indians was much worse.

Once again as well: the pogroms were prevalent in non-Russian parts of the Russian Empire. Simultaneously, there were many Jews living in Russia proper, the territory comprising today’s Russian Federation.

The initial Jewish migration to the East was due to the prejudices it found in the West. This includes Germany, well before Hitler.

Sholom Aleichem is formally acknowledged by Russia as a Rusisan literary figure. This as the teflon Turks continue to deny its mass killing of Armenians. Something which the AUSTRIAN Hitler acknowledged.

The often Russia unfriendly Wikipedia cites (among others) Solzhenitsyn’s research:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms#In_the_Russian_Empire

“The pogroms against American Blacks and Indians was much worse.”

When were there pogroms against Indians? military campaigns do not count?

When were hundreds of blacks lynched within the course of a month?

“the pogroms were prevalent in non-Russian parts of the Russian Empire.”

And lo and behold, thos regions — Ukraine, Poland, Romania — are also usually thought of as anti-Semitic.

Care of some Soviet policies, how many Jews as well as others were killed?

“Care of some Soviet policies, how many Jews as well as others were killed?”

Not relevant to discussion.

“And lo and behold, thos regions — Ukraine, Poland, Romania — are also usually thought of as anti-Semitic.”

****

Most defintely.

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“When were hundreds of blacks lynched within the course of a month?”

****

Ovberall, when compared to the pogroms, the figures of Blacks in lynchings is high. Among such instances was the Civil War era draft riots in New York City.

———————————————-

“When were there pogroms against Indians? military campaigns do not count?”

****

According to such logic: some pogroms against Jews, involving locals and some leftists don’t count.

You know anything about how Indians are treated on reservations? Some say that’s a form of genocide.

“Not relevant to discussion.”

****

Anything going against a certain slant fits that perception.

The propping of Ethan Burger (c/o Lavelle, JRL and RP) and censoring of those disagreeing with him contributes to the ignorance:

http://www.siberianlight.net/2007/04/10/the-best-books-about-russia-on-the-radio/

In prior instances, KKK ties with some local authorities was evident.

This was true as late as the last century and as far north of the US as Long Island.

Besides Wiki, one can find a plethora of credible source material on the extent of lynchings in America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

A very politically incorrect post, which no one has yet replied to:

“Maya on September 9, 2007 9:20 pm

The very existence of Nazis in Israel IS what questions its justification to exist.

Israel by definition is a ‘national home for the Jewish people.’ The only justification that allowed for the creation of the little racist state, sanctioned by the United Nations, was that it was to provide Jews with a state where they would be able to escape persecutions.

Yet, defining Jews according to blood line and implementing a law based on the Nuremberg Laws, Israel has admitted and ‘accepted’ Nazis into its ranks. Now, that it no longer provides Jews with a safe heaven, why would it exist?”

****

For the record, I find it a bit on the politically acid side.

I see how Russia is often caricatured.

Seeing how Israel and some of its policies have been discussed, here’re references to a couple of anti-Zionist Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenni_brenner

http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/authors.php?auid=14

A military campaign is not a pogrom.

Face it Mike, 19th-century Russia was a very anti-Semitic place. Deal with it.

“A military campaign is not a pogrom.

Face it Mike, 19th-century Russia was a very anti-Semitic place. Deal with it.”

****

On the first point, I wasn’t referring to such.

Face it Chris, much of what’s written on 19th century Russia is either ideologically driven and-or hypocritically applied, given what else was going on during that period. Deal with it.

19th century Russia didn’t nurture Hitler and his future accomplices.

19th century Russia wasn’t all about pogroms.

“Face it Chris, much of what’s written on 19th century Russia is either ideologically driven and-or hypocritically applied, given what else was going on during that period.”

Really? Ya think?

You went off on one of your “Russia is misunderstood!” rants, and then I explained why it is misunderstood. That is, the image of Russia in the West is largely determined by the accounts of Jews fleeing the turn-of-the-century pogroms. If there had been much black emigration from the US to, say, France during Jim Crow, then you would have lots of accounts of “eternal American racism” in French newspapers today.

“19th century Russia didn’t nurture Hitler and his future accomplices.”

It nurtured Alfred Rosenberg and the Protocols, which were very influential in Nazi Germany.

Anyway, it doesn’t matter. France didn’t nurture Mao; Guatemala didn’t nurture Torquemada. So what?

“19th century Russia wasn’t all about pogroms.”

Nobody said it was. PS. 19th-century America wasn’t all about killin’ Injuns. Nazi Germany wasn’t all about Auschwitz. What’s your point?

Come to think of it, I suspect the reason you are so obsessed with this pogrom issue is that they were largely committed by people to an extent ideologically similar to Mike Averko. They were committed largely by monarchists carrying the portrait of the Tsar and the two-headed eagle.

Leave it to Chris Doss to resort to the asshole route which befits his prior manner.

Among others, Roy, the elder of the Chubais brothers and Pankratov have shown an appreciation for some of what existed in Russia prior to 1917.

Herr Doss has an aversion to Russia’s national emblem.

Rosenburg was a Russia hating non-Russian. Much unlike many of his fellow Baltic Germans. The tsar rejected the protocols.

As for who committed much of the pogroms, “Russian monarchists” aren’t Moldovans, Ukrainian nationalists and leftists (the latter had some of those elements).

Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 11:22 am “19th century Russia wasn’t all about pogroms.”

Nobody said it was. PS. 19th-century America wasn’t all about killin’ Injuns. Nazi Germany wasn’t all about Auschwitz. What’s your point?

****

It isn’t obvious? You’ve some hypocritically warped views which don’t conform with actual reality.

Imperial Russia NEVER came close to matching what Jews faced in Germany, Austria and elsewhere.

Ditto Armenians in Turkey, as well as Blacks and Indians in America.

Cool jersey:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2007/09/10/091.html

“You’ve some hypocritically warped views which don’t conform with actual reality.”

What? That pogroms occurred?

“Herr Doss has an aversion to Russia’s national emblem.”

I do?

“The tsar rejected the protocols.”

Not because they were anti-Semitic. Because they were fake. He was, you know, an anti-Semite.

You don’t?

———————————————-

“Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 12:03 pm ‘You’ve some hypocritically warped views which don’t conform with actual reality.’

What? That pogroms occurred?”

****

Your hypcritically warped spin on the matter.

From the same guy who fends for the Cossacks’ role in those acts.

Oh yeah, he’ll say he knows and studied them.

Maybe if he did that with some others, he’d have a different take.

Then again…

“Your hypcritically warped spin on the matter.

From the same guy who fends for the Cossacks’ role in those acts.”

What the hell are you talking about?

Top of my last post was in reply to CD’s last one.

———————————————-

“’The tsar rejected the protocols.’”

Not because they were anti-Semitic. Because they were fake. He was, you know, an anti-Semite.”

****

Compared to Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler and some others of that period?

Different period having different standards.

“Different period having different standards.”

Did anybody say they didn’t?

Ya know, “he was less anti-Semitic than Hitler” is pretty damn weak.

“Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 12:09 pm ‘Your hypocritically warped spin on the matter.

From the same guy who fends for the Cossacks’ role in those acts.’

What the hell are you talking about?

****

I’m talking about how you’ll challenge some misguided stereotypes on matter which you’ve studied, while readily parrotting some other dubious claims.

It’s clear you know little about the White Russian community.

“Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 12:13 pm ‘Different period having different standards.’

Did anybody say they didn’t?

Ya know, ‘he was less anti-Semitic than Hitler’ is pretty damn weak.”

****

How about Kaiser Wilhelm and perhaps Henry Ford?

Whereas Nicholas rejected the Protocols, the Vatican (to my understanding) didn’t excommunicate Hitler.

So, Mike, was Nicholas II an anti-Semite or not?

Were, or were not, the October 1905 pogroms a reaction by pro-monarchists horrified by the introduction of a constitution? Did they, or did they not, march under the Tsar’s portrait? Did the Tsar, or did he not, personally regard them as a sign that his subjects still supported him and absolutism?

Did the Russian Empire, or did it not, have a blood libel trial as late as 1913?

Was there, or was there not, a pro-monarchist group known as the chernosotentsy terrorizing Jews and other people seen as anti-monarchist?

Did thousands of Jews flee the pogroms, or did they not?

And what about this whole Pale of Settlement thingie?

For that matter, elements in the Vatican helped to shield Nazis at war’s end.

“Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 12:21 pm So, Mike, was Nicholas II an anti-Semite or not?

Were, or were not, the October 1905 pogroms a reaction by pro-monarchists horrified by the introduction of a constitution? Did they, or did they not, march under the Tsar’s portrait? Did the Tsar, or did he not, personally regard them as a sign that his subjects still supported him and absolutism?

Did the Russian Empire, or did it not, have a blood libel trial as late as 1913?

Was there, or was there not, a pro-monarchist group known as the chernosotentsy terrorizing Jews and other people seen as anti-monarchist?

Did thousands of Jews flee the pogroms, or did they not?

And what about this whole Pale of Settlement thingie?”

***

An Eng. lang. mass media tact.

On his last point, America had and has actual versions of the “Pale of Settlement”. Plenty of Jews lived in Russia proper during that paper law.

Note how he broadly sterotypes in the very same manner he rejects when his beloved Cosascks are discussed.

I already addressed those other points of his.

Come on Mike, say it: “The Russian Empire was very anti-Semitic.” It will be therapeutic. Why can’t you admit it? It’s weird.

What’s next? “Slavery of blacks wasn’t so bad! They had serfdom in Russia at the same time! Some blacks even had slaves of their own! What are these hypocritical double standards?”

You know that romantic comedy formula where two people start off hating each other, but also can’t stay apart from each other, and their edginess conceals a hidden attraction – and then something happens, some moment of weakness, they both break down and fall in love with each other?

Something was just reminding me of that, I forget what it was.

Good catch by Newman on the Holocaust Denials.

There is something about the aggressiveness of Israel and the atmosphere it creates that makes this a non-surprise. That isn’t to say there isn’t a reason for that atmosphere, given the state of their neighbors. But if the anger, emotions, disenfranchisement, what have you of muslim states spills over into terrorism – why should we be surprised that similar youths in Israel wouldn’t turn to something equally ugly?

“I already addressed those other points of his.”

You didn’t address a damn one of them.

Perhaps you should move to Dingburg: http://zippythepinhead.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=9-Sep-07&Category_Code=sun2007&Product_Count=37.

gabba-gabba-hey

I refuse to let Billy Crystal play me.

Chris has a way of distorting.

Blacks in America had it worse than Jews in Russia.

The former doesn’t excuse the latter as I’d previously indicated.

At the same time, I’m not going to suck up to BS/PC horse shit.

BTW, during WW I, many Jews in non-Russia proper/Russian Empire teritory fled into Russia proper when the German army attacked.

I replied to your points Chris.

There were prior threads.

re: http://zippythepinhead.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=9-Sep-07&Category_Code=sun2007&Product_Count=37.

He’s deflecting his flaws unto me again.

“But if the anger, emotions, disenfranchisement, what have you of muslim states spills over into terrorism – why should we be surprised that similar youths in Israel wouldn’t turn to something equally ugly?”

Ah! I real person! What a breath of fresh air!

I asked a friend of mine in Israel about the Nazi subject, and he says it’s likely in part a reaction by Israelis who don’t consider themselves Jews to the constant hyping of Jewishness by the Israeli government and educational system, compounded by a general negative attitude by older israelis toward immigrants fron the FSU that has economic repurcussions. Sort of “well, we’re outsiders, and by God we’ll make you know it!”

Especially during the Cold War, many Israeli Jews from Arab countries were somewhat jealous of the USSR emigres. The Israeli government would help the latter in a way that the “Oriental” Jews felt were biased. On the other hand, the USSR emigres to Israel were often highly skilled professionals unlike many of the “Oriental” Jews.

Since 2003, considerably more people leave Israel for Russia than vice versa.

A Cold War era politically incorrect saying which made the rounds in Brighton Beach:

“Life in America isn’t as good as we thought it was and life in the USSR wasn’t as bad as we thought it was.”

“Life in America isn’t as good as we thought it was and life in the USSR wasn’t as bad as we thought it was.”

Heck, based on the few Brighton Beacher’s I’ve spoke to, I think they STILL say that there.

The problem – Brighton Beach isn’t America. If your impression of life here is based upon that small enclave, then of course it isn’t going to seem much better than Russia or the former USSR.

I think this is wandering considerably from Jewish Nazi’s.

Maybe Sean’s Russia Blog should have a chat room.

What hours are you two operating on anyway? Seems I wake up, check my email at 6:30 am or so, and if I check a volatile thread on this forum Chris and Mike have been going at it all night.

Well, not going at it, but bickering/antagonizing each other.

“Well, not going at it, but bickering/antagonizing each other.”

Cue music?

Chrisius Maximus on September 10, 2007 10:56 am

“A military campaign is not a pogrom.

Face it Mike, 19th-century Russia was a very anti-Semitic place. Deal with it.”

I think we can say this about Europe as well… I mean – very anti-Semitic place.

Military campaign is not a pogrom unless it’s aim is to eliminate all Jews.

PS. I have no problems with Jews. 1/5 of our family friends are Jews. And among upper management level (at least in my place) every third one is Jew (and as you know they don’t make 33% of population).

Maybe this is the real problem in Russia. Notice how both Ivanov and Averko constantly count Jews?

The one stated that “Post-Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background.” while the other counted the number of Jewish family friends and Jews in managerial positions in his company.

A Russian friend of mine once told me that his mother had always wanted him to marry a Jew (she was Kalmyk and had probably never met a Jew in her life) because she wanted his children to be successful.

Is that not antisemitism?

“Is that not antisemitism?”

It’s stereotyping. It has to be a negative (and false) stereotype to be anti-semitism.

Yes – I was going to point out the “anti” part of that word.

Let’s do a show of hands, who here is Jewish?

Here a Jew, there a Jew, everywhere a Jew, Jew.

It’s interesting that the grandmother and mother are standing up for one of the accused – insisting he’s not a Nazi. I thought ignoring your children and being in total denial about their bad behavior was an American trait.

I’ve also read some bits about half-Jewish or Russian Jewish immigrants being treated as less than full Jews in Israel. There was a quote from one of the boys families about how it wasn’t easy being half-jewish in Israel, etc.

Do you know the old Soviet joke?

A Soviet Jew is preparing to emigrate to Israel. His father tells him, “remember, son — here, you’re just a Jew. There, you’ll be just a Russian.”

They’re immigrants, outsiders, looked down on by older-generation Israelis and in an economically worse off situation. Not as bad as Ethiopean or Arab Jews, but still not great.

Oh please, “positive” stereotyping is the beginning of anti everything.

The stereotype of Jews is that they are successful – isn’t that also the source of their trouble? I could hear in the “among upper management level (at least in my place) every third one is Jew (and as you know they don’t make 33% of population)” the smell of “Jews are taking over our country.”

And as for Israel – don’t remember who said that it was a liberal free country – have you ever heard of a liberal state based on religious law? Are there other free countries where someone can’t get married because he doesn’t officially belong to one religion or another?

“The stereotype of Jews is that they are successful – isn’t that also the source of their trouble? ”

The classic Russian anti-Semitic stereotype is a bit stronger. They’re supposed to be secretly running the world for obscene purposes, usually in cohorts with the Masons. And they killed Christ.

Jews actually do tend to do pretty well materially and socially speaking in contemporary Russian society.

Maya on September 10, 2007 5:54 pm

“Maybe this is the real problem in Russia. Notice how both Ivanov and Averko constantly count Jews?

The one stated that “Post-Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background.” while the other counted the number of Jewish family friends and Jews in managerial positions in his company.”

I’m not counting them – I’m living with them.
And they are not top manager in “my company”. They are top managers (or bosses) everywhere. The only reason I “counting” them – this topic is about them. 4/5 of our family friends and 2/3 of bosses are not Jews ))
Frankly – I know the nationality of very few of them. As I don’t care much about it.
And what is nationality of a person if mother has Asian/Russian (who are they – Russians?) roots and father has Northen Scandinavian/British roots? “Pure white” with “pure yellow” and Russian layer between )

Some more on the Israeli/Russian neo-Nazis:

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/13874

As a follow-up to the prior post: misrepresenting what people say can be Nazi like as well.

I see that Mike’s madness is progressing.

Madness… the wind howls through the gables… the gibbous moon hangs bloated in the sky… screeches reverberate through the asylum halls of Mike’s mind, the pandamonium unleashed… “Hark? what is that I hear? is it Ethan Burger? He follows me, yeessss… He is in the wall, I tell you! And you call me mad?!?!? They laughed at me at Adelphi… I’ll show you, I’ll show Ethan Burger, I’ll show you all… it’s just a little cut, don’t be afraid, i needs it ta make the bad-gunky come out, if’n I don’t, Ethan Burger gonna come git me, he’s a-gonna come and git us all… What was that I saw in the black pit of N’kai where no man walks? Was it Ethan Burger’s immense form I saw rise and stumble through the depths? Cthulhu fthagn! Mwa-ha-ha-ha!”

Or so they found scrawled in blood over the quivering body of the wretched inmate. He had bitten off his own tongue.

A related article to this discussion:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2007/09/11/011.html

In some circles, calling Jews successful and smart is as bigoted as tagging them as money grubbing…..

At times, there’s a bit too much over-analysis on such matter.

Nobody seems to consider it bigoted when Russians are described as proud and arrogant. This was said on a recent radio show by a Polish commentator. Rather ironic, in that some would tag that label on a good number of Poles.

The bottom line is that there’s a good deal of selective sensitivity out there.

It doesn’t beat the Lavelle/Babich (snooze) duo on RTTV?

Forgot this one from Mr. Shedd:

“There was a quote from one of the boys families about how it wasn’t easy being half-jewish in Israel, etc.”

***

The 1969 Costa Gavras directed movie “Z” (great movie) starring Yves Montand and Irene Papas about the Greek junta had a related scene.

When reviewing the files of dissidents, one of the security personnel isolates a Jewish dissident and says that he’s half Jewish and adds that half Jews are the worst because they think they’re superior to everyone else.

I remember seeing that film and recollecting how that scene drew laughter from the movie theater’s audience.

How can I overlook this bias from CD:

“The classic Russian anti-Semitic stereotype is a bit stronger.”

***

More like clASSic from him.

The Spanish Inquisition and Nazism came from the West and not Russia.

Henry Ford wasn’t Russian. Ditto Posse Comatatus or however the **** it’s properly pronounced.

Last week, a LI synagogue was vandalized with anti-Jewish graffiti. The ADL can detail how such acts are quite common in the US.

Here’s a question in Jewish philosophy:

If a married Jewish man is walking alone in the park, and expresses an opinion without anyone around to hear him, is he still wrong?

Well, there was some decent discussion before.

Does your Israeli SO have any opinion on this?

It’s not so surprising that a couple of Jewish kids in Israel from Russia or the CIS turn out to be anti-Semitic given the social/cultural acceptance for ethnic stereotyping here — regardless of ethnicity. One only has to recall Zhirinovsky’s famous statement about his nationality: “My mother was Russian and my father was a lawyer.” Or a bizarre pseudo talk show with Prokhanov insisting that “all the oligarchs were Jews,” but that this was fine in some ways, since “Jews are really smart.” Or even a segment in a sitcom aired on NTV last night. One of the characters is meeting with her father and his second wife, who have emigrated to Israel. The second wife (who is Jewish) says, “I always say, the only problem with Israel is that it’s filled with Jews! You just can’t imagine what it’s like to live with only Jews…” As long as this sort of thing is acceptable to say on national TV, some kids who aren’t very smart and who spend time reading much worse stuff are going to turn into skinheads.

Understand that there’re different forms of wise assism.

There’re? That isn’t a word, is it?

Hmmm … that might suspiciously fall into the less than progressive form of wise-assism.

Regarding earlier comments, I just was noticing how certain individuals can’t stay away from each other. Yin and Yang. Frick and Frack. Laurel and Hardy. George and Gracie.

Why, in light of that, I even went out of my way to affirm something that Mr. Newman said. Heck, I even liked his Jewish husband – is he still wrong joke.

Or perhaps I am misjudging and it was my “here a Jew, there a Jew” comment that was less progressive. I had noticed a general tone of “I’m more Jewish than you” reverberating through the tail end of the thread.

By the way – off topic for Israeli neo-nazi’s but on topic for hate crimes: Had anyone else noticed this recent story?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/11/AR2007091100544.html

Six white people in West Virgina kidnapped a young black woman and abused her in almost every way imaginable. One of the questions these sorts of stories always bring to my mind (other than the nature of hatred and violence the U.S.) is how such stories play differently here than if they happened in Russia or elsewhere.

I know that is a common Mike Averko theme, I certainly am guilty of pointing that out as well, when I think it is appropriate.

Actually Mab I can easily imagine somebody making that Jewish joke on US television, on MAD TV or something like that (is that show still around?).

Nope, US TV would never air an anti-Semitic joke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue3EOslwwd0

Has the story about the Russian skinheads in Israel been covered in the mainstream US media?

There is a line there between humor and satire. I recall Borat’s infamous film, which was so clearly over-the-top as regards poor Borats impressions of Jews as to be satire.

However, you can certainly make jokes without the hint of “wink-wink” and be cutting on Jews.

Damn, Maximus – I can’t believe you didn’t say anything about there’re. What’re you thinking?

“There’re” Brrrrr. I’ll pretend it doesn’t exist.

I’ve never seen Borat, but I suspect that if it had been made in Russia its existence would be adduced in some quarters as a sign of Russian anti-Semitism.

Has the story about the Russian skinheads in Israel been covered in the mainstream US media?

Depends on what you mean by the mainstream media.

I don’t watch television news, so I can’t speak to whether ABC, NBC, CNN, etc. have been reporting much about it on TV.

I don’t usually catch much news via radio, but I can say there was a passing reference to it on a “Headlines” section on the local sports radio station yesterday morning during the commute to work.

Certainly the larger newspapers, Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, etc. have all picked up on the story.

Topics of interest in Israel and the Middle East are often reported by mainstream TV here in the US. Speculation as to why this is could make you sound like Mel Gibson. However, much of the US foreign policy and worries center around conflicts in the Middle East, so suffice it to say that such topics attract concerned viewers and sell newspapers.

I’ve never seen Borat, but I suspect that if it had been made in Russia its existence would be adduced in some quarters as a sign of Russian anti-Semitism.

Even having not been made in Russia, it was seen as a sign (by some) of Kazakhstan anti-Semitism. Borat played it straight as a character, but so exaggerated as to provide the hint that it was meant to be satire or spoof.

Literally, there was a scene where it is supposed to be the annual “Running of the Jews” in his Kazakh village. A person is a large headed troll-like costume parades through the street. The large ugly She-Jew lays a “jew-egg” in the street. The children are encouraged to throw things at the ugly Jew creatures.

While at country and western bar/pub in the U.S., he sings a song entitled “Throw the Jew Down the Well (so my country can be free)” and encourages the crowd to sing and clap along (which they do).

It was pretty damn over-the-top.

See, if this bit were done by students not at Duke, but at MGU, it would be interpreted very differently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viwSywMkfqs

I don’t mean to overdo it, but for yet more anti-Semitic jokes in mainstream US popular entertainment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I_c0pYmdu0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMjaR5QTz3w&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMLAvGouvK0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UihUqDzAJ18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNc4A9zXqa0&mode=related&search=

I didn’t realize Family Guy had so much of this stuff. Robin Williams also does some “goofy Chinaman” stuff I notice.

I didn’t realize Family Guy had so much of this stuff.

Is there any minority group which Family Guy doesn’t abuse? I love that show.

Sorry, but I don’t get you guys. Despite Mr Averko’s protests to the contrary, Russia and the USSR have historically been quite anti-Semitic. Now there is a growing problem with nationalism, chauvinism, and hate crimes. This particular case strikes me as a sad story of some terribly mixed up kids, who probably probably picked up a lot of anti-Semitism through the mainstream and other media.

When this sort of thing happens in the US, and it does, aren’t you appalled? Didn’t you read about that horrible case of 6 white people torturing a black woman for a week and gasp? Didn’t you think about the history of racism in the US and think this is another example of it?

Then why the attempt to either downplay the seriousness of a similar problem in Russia (“it happens everywhere, the US is no better, you’re “biassed” to focus on it”) or state that it’s blown out of proportion by the dreadful Western media?

If this were the one and only case of Russian teen skin-heads that has occurred in the last year and all the newspapers picked it up — yes, it would show “biassed coverage.” But nationalism and hate crimes, including anti-Semitic hate crimes, are an enormous and growing problem in Russia. Of course journalists write about it. Of course people are concerned about it. Of course people pay attention if kids at MGU do a chauvinistic skit or whatever — because it happening in a particular political and social context — of thousands of violent hate crimes a year and organized nationalist-fascist youth groups that are picking up, by conservative estimate, about 10000 kids a year.

That’s a problem, guys. If most foreign students in the US were subjected to verbal insults and dozens were beaten up and killed every year, wouldn’t you raise the alarm? I sure would. Then why, when that’s happening in Russia, are you trying to downplay it?

While I’ve been steadfastly trying to avoid the horror of this thread, I will, for solidarity’s sake, add: “I’m with Mab.”

“Then why, when that’s happening in Russia, are you trying to downplay it?”

I wasn’t aware I was.

But I think it’s due to different reasons than you appear to think. I think it’s mostly due to massive migration, which is a first in Russian history, and the economic disenfranchisement of a lot of the population that is a result of what happened in the 1990s. I don’t think it is a result of the mass media or current government policy.

“Is there any minority group which Family Guy doesn’t abuse? I love that show.”

It is a good show. I just suspect that if Mab had seen The Scarejew on a Russian TV program, she (? — sorry if I’m getting your gender wrong Mab) would interpret it differently. Which was in a roundabout way my point.

mab & co.

There’re some who lean towards assigning a collective guilt on the German people for what happened during WW II. The supporting point being that a very educated people should’ve known better. This view is common among a good number of older WW II era Jews (some of my relatives included, with others taking the opposite view).

I don’t assign collective guilt for several reasons. I see how grossly unfair and in some instances bigoted it’s to make that claim of Russians. Marx thought that Russia wasn’t ripe for his envisaged revolution. Heck, among European nations, Germany wasn’t the most ripe of countries for a Nazi like movement. During WW II, there’re credible accounts about how some non-Germans behaved more Nazi like than the Germans.

One of several left professors of mine (a German military history expert) stated that what happened in Germany could’ve easily happened elsewhere. I very much agree with him. Let’s look at: the Germans were a very educated people who should’ve known better claim. I see how mab and at least one other participant at this thread repeat the bogus notion of Russia standing out as a anti-Jewish place when compared to other European nations. These are educated folks making that claim which has been passed down to them by the kind of skewed Eng. lang. mass media and academia presentations out there. As intelligent people, why don’t they bother second guessing such a dubious claim?

In lieu of the broken record horse shit about Russia, I’ll repeat some earlier points, which don’t seem to resonate with some:
- Russia never had anything matching Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition.
- Jews arrived in Russia after fleeing discrimination in the West.
- Among Euros, Jews have probably intermarried most with Russians.
- Whereas the US has never had a president or vice president of known Jewish background in its lengthy enough history, post Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background during its short existence.
- It’s my understanding that the kremlin has a Kosher kitchen unlike the White House.

Did anyone see the very excellent film “Europa”, which is based on the story of a WW II era Jew? During the film, there’s a scene where upon the implementation of Molotov-Ribbentrop, Jews are fleeing the Nazi occupied area to the Soviet one, with Poles doing the reverse.

Someone mentioned Prokhonov. Note that he has been employed by “liberal” Ekho Moskvy, which to my knowledge seems to mute non-bigoted and intelligently presented Russocentric views.

Whereas the US has never had a president or vice president of known Jewish background in its lengthy enough history, post Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background during its short existence.

Why are you comparing US Presidents with Russian Prime Ministers? Why not compare US Presidents with Russian Presidents?

Sean:

While citing a Y-Net dispatch in my last QT (dealing with the apparent Israeli over-flght into Syria), I left out the same day piece from that venue which dealt with the Israeli/Russian skinheads.

My anti-censorship/censorship in knowing how that latter piece would get picked up elsewhere. It’s not as if QT hasn’t covered issues pertaining to intolerance. For example, QT dealt with Gleb Pavlovsky’s stupid comments about David Miliband. Though stupid, his comments weren’t were anti-Jewish. They were stupid because it gave the hate Russia side a talking point. This coming from a supposed semi-Russian government connected “spin doctor”. Some in that category leave a good deal to be desired when it comes to providing intelligent insight. The kind of criticism about Russia not getting picked up at outlets like JRL.

It often appears somewhat criminal for taking a contrary approach to what’s being presented as worhty news stories and political views.

Tim:

If America is so tolerant, why no Jewish or Black or female VP?

A rhetorical question to hit home at the standards which can no longer be called double.

Mike,

I am not interested in getting into a discussion with you or anyone else on this thread on America’s alleged intolerance vs that of Russia.

I was specifically asking you why you are comparing US Presidents with Russian Prime Ministers as opposed to US Presidents with Russian Presidents.

If most foreign students in the US were subjected to verbal insults and dozens were beaten up and killed every year, wouldn’t you raise the alarm? I sure would. Then why, when that’s happening in Russia, are you trying to downplay it?

Actually, I think what is happening is the US ignores its own problems with racism and hate crimes, and points their finger abroad at Russia and other places.

I was actually the person who cited that case in West Virginia. Horrific case, barely makes a blip on the radar screen here – and that stuff happens all the time. Hell, we elect KKK members into political office in the U.S. And yes, NOBODY makes a stink about it.

These problems are on the increase in Russia, I have little doubt,, even the despite the sketchy statistics (and the statistics are sketchy and largely anecdotal – the OSCE/SOVA data collection methods are haphazard at best). However, the U.S. hate crime statistics are awful as well (8,804 hate crimes in 2005 with incomplete FBI data).

So, I would tell you, pretty bluntly – nobody in the U.S. cares about domestic hate crimes. We turn a blind eye to it and aren’t horrified. There have been a string of 5 murdered blacks from Cape Verde in Boston in the past year, no one talks about it. No one calls it a hate crime. We largely save such judgments for other nations, so we can cluck our tongues and say “how horrible it is in other places, aren’t we so glad that we’re the U.S of A. and so much better.” Sadly, we’re not. And we isolate our selves so much from the rest of the world, we live with our illusions intact.

So true Wally.

Tim:

I actually said American presidents and vice presidents relative to post-Soviet Russian presidents and prime ministers. There has yet to be a Russian president of known Jewish background. There’ve been two Russian prime ministers of known Jewish background.

On another matter, do you identify with the Eng. national team, or do you see it as something of a rival to Wales, or perhaps both? As you probably know, England-Russia will be playing in a short bit.

On another matter, do you identify with the Eng. national team, or do you see it as something of a rival to Wales, or perhaps both?

When it comes to Rugby Union, which is the principal sport of Wales, then I am an ardent supporter of Wales and wish England to be thrashed soundly by anybody they come up against, including a Taliban XV.

As far as football goes, Wales simply cannot compete at any serious level so I find it hard to support them as they don’t participate in any major tournaments, although obviously I want them to do well. My support of England depends on whether I think they deserve to win based on player selection and performance. If they are playing like a load of overpaid, spoiled brats selected from a clique within the English football clubs, I have no desire to see them win anything (especially as the response of most of the fans to English success would be unbearable). If they have selected a good few youngsters who deserve a game over and above the “old guard” who get a game whether regardless of recent performance, I genuinely want them to do well. It’s an odd attitude to have I know, but there it is. So in the upcoming game against Russia, if I think the manager is being an arse in his selection and England play like idiots, I will want Russia to come away with the spoils. Actually, I want Russia to win anyway. For me, club football is much more important than internationals.

In cricket, the England and Wales teams are combined as “England”, so I support them fully. And with lesser sports, I am happy for any British team to perform well.

Thought so. Many folks in Ukraine and Belarus identify with Russian teams, with many Russians reciprocating.

As per ice hockey: in 1972, I was for the Soviet national team against the Canadians because the latter carried on like brats. In 1980, I was all for the youthful hard work of the USA against the power house USSR.

****

On some prior observations which seemed to touch on why many Jews appear to not be so fond of Russia, several variables should be considered for accuracy sake.

Jews are well represented in an American mass media, academic and body politic environment which overall isn’t Russia friendly, regardless of ethno-religious background. I’ve run into some non-Jews who present to me the number of not so Russia friendly Jews they see in American mass media, academia and mass body politic. I point out to them that American mass media, academia and body politic isn’t Russia friendly. Some views are more equal than others in that environment. It therefore stands to reason that many Jews in that setting will advocate a certain line like their non-Jewish counterparts. Just how reflective those Jews are of Jewry on the whole is questionable. Take the neo-cons for example. Neo-conservatism is an overwhelmingly Zionist political movement, comprised of many Jews within its domain. Simultaneously, most Jews aren’t neo-conservative.

For that matter, reference the kind of Ukrainian views propped in Eng. lang. mass media. A generation of misinformed Anglo-Americans think that Ukrainians hate Russians. They base this on their exposure to the anti-Russian Ukrainian views typically propped over the pro-Russian Ukrainian views.

Many Jews from not so Russia friendly places like Poland and western Ukraine often share the anti-Russian biases of their non-Jewish neighbors from those lands. As I earlier mentioned, the Vilnius born Polish kitchen rabbi at a former employer of mine would say the most anti-Russian of comments, only to acknowledge that Russians were less anti-Jewish than Poles, Balts and Ukrainians. Others can be added to that category.

Finally, here’s something that will rub some the wrong way. Russians are often caricatured for wrongly being anti-Jewish (like I said, I don’t buy that in the collective sense). Take into account that some (stress some) Jews (others as well) can be wrongly anti-Russian. The selective sensitivity is definitely there.

On another footie note, the US was very fortunate to tie the DPRK at a FIFA Women’s World Cup qualifying match.

Those DPRK ladies are the real deal.

Mr Shedd, I take your point that it’s easier to point fingers than deal with one’s own problems. I’m not sure I’d agree that racism and anti-Semitism aren’t media issues in the US; it seems to me that there have been plenty of tv analysis shows and articles about it, at least in what I read and have seen. And there are certainly watchdog organizations that follow it and complain about it.

But let’s say for the sake of argument that the US isn’t dealing with its hate crimes. That doesn’t mean that it’s therefore okay for Russia to ignore or downplay its hate crimes; nor does it mean that no one in the world should comment on them; and certainly it doesn’t mean that the world shouldn’t worry about them.

Discussion of Russia/USSR in the US has always been hampered by domestic US politics. If some right-wing lunatic says something critical about the USSR/USA, the liberals and left-wing has a knee-jerk reaction to defend it, to dispell the underlying premises of that right-wing position (can’t trust them russkies) and to fight the implied policy decisions to deal with it (build up the military, place bases around the country, keep them out of WHO, etc.) The problem is that the liberal and left-wing ends up excusing or downplaying or ignoring or defending a system that is exactly the opposite of their values.

Russia has been historically anti-Semitic. It was the country that gave us the phrase “beyond the pale,” meaning the Pale of Settlement where Jews were made to live. It wasn’t, as Mr Averko, insists, a “paper law” that no one paid attention to. Over the centuries, depending on the particular policy of the tsar, Jews had it better or worse, but they were always massively discriminated against — couldn’t live in argicultural areas or the major cities (except for certain “categories”); couldn’t own land; couldn’t get a higher education (except later by quota). They were banished by the thousands from Moscow and St Pete in the late 19th century and killed by the thousands in pogroms. The tsarist police gave the world The Elders of Zion. The church called them Christ killers and insisted that they performed ritual murders of Christian babies. Jews, not surprisingly, supported the revolutions, and indeed, all these discriminary measures only ceased in 1917 — which was much later than similar measures in most of Europe. If the early years of the USSR were good for Jews, they were persecuted again after the war (the execution of Yiddish writers and artists, the Doctor’s Plot, the rewriting or presentation of Nazi atrocities to leave out Jews as victims) and were second class citizens for most of the rest of the Soviet era. There have been surges of anti-Semitism at the end of the 1980s and more recently. This is not to say that the country is 100 percent anti-Semitic. The majority of Russians is not, or at least they not acitvely beating up Jews. But it is historically a problem, and the story that started this thread is yet another example of the problem. And other than a few official statements about it (usually after some outrage), there isn’t any movement here to deal with it — not in society, not in the state media, not in the govt, not in the church.

Actually, the only “movement” that has made life better for Jews recently is the skinheads’ switching their focus from Jews to people from the Caucasus. A Jewish friend of mine joked darkly that he hasn’t been beat up once in the last few years because the skins have been beating up Chechens instead.

Here we go again with the misguided stereotypes.

The Pale of Settlement was a paper law as shown by the significant number of Jews living in Russia proper.

Why isolate the ROC when the Vatican never excommunicated Hitler and gave cover to fleeing Nazis at the end of WW II? How about Martin Luther’s not so Jewish friendly views?

The Doctor’s Plot involved doctor’s of non-Jewish origin.

The Imperial Russian government didn’t have a master plan targeting Jews. Some Russian government officials supported it in an unofficial way. During the same period, America faced the same scenario with the massive violence against Blacks. BTW, the Russian government put down pogroms which in some instances were probably started by anti-Russian government forces seeking to destabilize Russia.

Contemporary Russia has in fact taken a stand against extremism. Awhile back, Putin went on TV to award a non-Jew who came to the aid of a Jew getting attacked.

It’s so easy to stereotype. Yelena Khanga’s Jewish relatives in American Georgia don’t welcome her presence for reasons having to do with her African background. Over the course of time, how many Jewish families have gone bonkers over inter-marriages with Russians and other non-Jews?

I’d like for mab to address all of these previously raised points:

- Russia never had anything matching Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition.
- Jews arrived in Russia after fleeing discrimination in the West.
- Among Euros, Jews have probably intermarried most with Russians.
- Whereas the US has never had a president or vice president of known Jewish background in its lengthy enough history, post Soviet Russia has had two prime ministers of known Jewish background during its short existence.
- It’s my understanding that the Kremlin has a Kosher kitchen unlike the White House.

Did anyone see the very excellent film “Europa”, which is based on the story of a WW II era Jew? During the film, there’s a scene where upon the implementation of Molotov-Ribbentrop, Jews are fleeing the Nazi occupied area to the Soviet one, with Poles doing the reverse.

Someone mentioned Prokhonov. Note that he has been employed by “liberal” Ekho Moskvy, which to my knowledge seems to mute non-bigoted and intelligently presented Russocentric views.

****

Never mind her earlier misinformation about how Rusisans don’t correctly intepret what has been going on in former Yugoslavia.

USSR faults notwithstanding, it preserved the Yiddish language better than any other nation during its existence.

As Begin acknowledged in his memoirs, the USSR saved the Jews.

Regarding Jews during the Stalin period, see post 9 at the below AUR link, which cites Yevgenia Albats’ research:

http://action-ukraine-report.blogspot.com/search?q=Mike+Averko

“Russia has been historically anti-Semitic. It was the country that gave us the phrase “beyond the pale,” meaning the Pale of Settlement where Jews were made to live. It wasn’t, as Mr Averko, insists, a “paper law” that no one paid attention to. Over the centuries, depending on the particular policy of the tsar, Jews had it better or worse, but they were always massively discriminated against — couldn’t live in argicultural areas or the major cities (except for certain “categories”); couldn’t own land; couldn’t get a higher education (except later by quota). They were banished by the thousands from Moscow and St Pete in the late 19th century and killed by the thousands in pogroms. The tsarist police gave the world The Elders of Zion. The church called them Christ killers and insisted that they performed ritual murders of Christian babies.”

I don’t disagree with you, but I would like to point out that roughly the same things could be said about most European Christian societies at various previous periods of time. As European societies had been before, 19th-century Russia was a largely medieval peasant society in which most people believed in the literal intervention of the Devil in daily life, the real existence of witches, wonder-working icons, and so forth. A lot like much of contemporary Africa now that I think of it.

Modern Russian society is a bit different.

“So, I would tell you, pretty bluntly – nobody in the U.S. cares about domestic hate crimes. We turn a blind eye to it and aren’t horrified. There have been a string of 5 murdered blacks from Cape Verde in Boston in the past year, no one talks about it.”

Yeah. People were getting gay-bashed all the time in my largely gay neighborhood in San Diego circa 15 years ago (he says, dating himself). Nobody cared. It was accepted like the weather.

Periodically, Russia and Russians get bashed for linguistically differentiating between ethnic Russian citizens of Russia and non-ethnic Russian citizens of Russia. Isn’t that a tolerant sign of showing how not everyone in Russia is Russian?

On the other hand, one can easily portray intolerance with words like “goyim” and “shiksa”. “Schwartze” is no more progressively utilized than the “cherno..” variant.

As per a recent comment, let’s be careful about damning the rural folks over the city ones. The latter have some very bigoted elements of the worst kind; specifically, the sophisticated over the not so sophisticated.

“They were banished by the thousands from Moscow and St Pete in the late 19th century and killed by the thousands in pogroms.”

****

Citation(s) please.

Once again, note the Spanish Inquisition and what happened in Germany and Austria a few decades later. Once again, note the Armenian genocide. I’m sorry that some of my Balkan Sephardic brethren tow the official Turkish line on that latter mentioned one. They do so out of a perverse gratitude for being treated well under that entity which brutalized others.

I do not believe that century-old Russian history has any but the flimsiest relevance to the present discussion. However, I would like to point out that the pogroms were not “anti-Jewish.” They were anti-anybody perceived as enemies of Samoderzhavie. That included Jews, “liberals,” university students, seminarians (which were hotbeds of liberal radicalism — Stalin’s closet Marxist seminary was not an exception), intellectuals, and the bourgeoisie. They are popularly thought of as anti-Jewish for reasons I have alluded to before — their image in the West is a product of the experiences of Jews fleeing them.

They also did not kill thousands (unless one wishes to take several decades of them all collectively, I suppose). I have provided these before — here are casualty statistics for the October 1905 pogrom broken down according to nationality of victim and a partial list according to city, taken from S. Stepanov, Chernaya Sotnya.

Casualties according to nationality. Number killed/number wounded

Jews: 711/1207
Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians: 428/1246
Armenians: 47/51
Georgians: 8/15
Azerbaijanis: 5/7
Poles: 4/6
Latvians: 2/1
Germans: 1/7
Greeks: 1/0
Karaite Jews: 1/0
Moldovans: 0/7
Lithuanians: 0/2
Caucasian peoples: 10/53
Undetermined nationalities: 404/932

**

Partial list of casualties according to city

Loss of life in all the Russian Empire: 1622

Cities:
Kiev 68
Baku 51
Chisenau 53
Vilno 9
Ekaterinslav 68
Minsk 52
Orsh 28
Saratov 8
Simferopol 42
Tomsk 68
Tiflis 36
Tula 22
Odessa 618*

*figure taken from government report on the Odessa pogrom

What about mab’s quote of thousands of Jews being expelled from Moscow and St. Pete during the late 19th century?

If I recall correctly very many were expelled following Alexander II’s assassination. I do not know how many. Thousands sounds right intuitively, but i don’t really know.

CM: Yes, certainly most European countries had anti-Semitic policies, but most of them began changing them well before Russia did, and post-war official anti-Semitism was heinous. And certainly Russia is not to be blamed for its past sins for ages unto ages. AND what I think of the best of the Russian intelligentsia, both pre-Revolutionary and post-, was and is renowned for its “internationalism.” AND I can add to the list of what horrors Americans have heaped upon their citizens. I don’t disagree with any of that. But none of that changes the fact that anti-Semitism is still a problem in Russia and is not being dealt with rigorously.
I am particularly interested in how popular culture shapes values, since I have expertise in this area (hence my interest in sitcoms etc.). In the story Sean posted, I was particularly interested in the defense/bewilderment of one of the kid’s mother. My heart goes out to her. I have a close friend here in Moscow who doesn’t have an ounce of anti-Semitism in her, but her kid has gotten seriously involved with a nationalist skinhead group. In this case I think it is adolescent rebellion mixed with brainwashing, but it is exacerbated by the climate of tolerance for anti-Semitism and xenophobia in society.
That “climate in society” interests me because I tend to believe in the tipping point theory of change. Right now the hard-core nationalists make up about 12-15 percent of the population, which is pretty much average for a country’s lunatic fringe. But surveys are registering a change in attitudes among the other 85 percent, with increased numbers expressing “Russia for Russians” attitudes, approving of using energy to blackmail Europe, citing longer lists of “enemies of Russia,” etc. There is virtually nothing that is countering this in the popular culture, on the political arena, in the church, in the mass media, or in the largely officially discredited NGO community. As long as Russia is rolling in dough, I’m not too worried. But you don’t need a majority to tip a country onto another path, as we know.

CM: I can’t speak about all the pogroms, but certainly the Chisinau one in 1903 was against Jews specifically. A Russian kid had been murdered nearby and newspapers called it killing by Jews (I think it was called a “ritual killing). True, “only” 49 Jews were killed, but about 500 were injured, about a third of Jewish property was destroyed, and the synagogue was desecrated.

mab: Forgive me for digression and partial repetition, but I think it is important to realize that Russia not long ago (just a bit longer than the oldest of living memories) was basically a medieval society for the great bulk of its population. I don’t think the average peasant in Russia or Ukraine in 1880 lived much differently, or had a much different worldview, than his or her English counterpart in the time of Chaucer. It is not surprising that residues of those attitudes persist. It’s only been 3-4 generations!

(To digress further, OF COURSE lots of people believed in Trotskyist conspiracies in the 1930s. They had believed in grand Jewish plots to rule the world just a few decades before — it’s not really a big leap.)

Europe west of Poland experienced the Industrial Revolution first, which created among other things urbanization, wider levels of education and cosmopolitanism.

Given Russia’s extreme multinational character, I think any kind of radical ethnic Russian nationalism seizing control of the state would lead to rapid territorial disintegration of the country. I think the Kremlin is perfectly aware of this.

As far pop culture, well, Dima Bilan is a Karachai, if that means anything.

Given Russia’s vastness and great regional differences, I think it would be interesting to examine nationalist attitudes according to particular regions, if such data are available. The megalopoloi (Moscow and Piter) are supposed to be more xenophobic than “border” areas, which makes sense as the latter are historically more multiethnic. I am going to Kazan in a couple of weeks and will keep my eyes open!

“CM: I can’t speak about all the pogroms, but certainly the Chisinau one in 1903 was against Jews specifically. A Russian kid had been murdered nearby and newspapers called it killing by Jews (I think it was called a “ritual killing).”

Could be. My information regards the 1905 pogrom after limitation of the tsar’s powers.

Speaking of accusations of ritual killings, I wonder what happened to Beilis (the defendant in the 1913 trial). I know he fled the Black Hundreds to Palestine and then New York. I went as far as looking up Beilises in the NYC phone directory to see if maybe he has any descendants there (there are two Beilises listed).

Some citation on the claimed thousands expelled from St. Pete and Moscow during the late 19th century.

Kishniev (Chisinau) is/was mostly Moldovan.

———————————————-

“Right now the hard-core nationalists make up about 12-15 percent of the population, which is pretty much average for a country’s lunatic fringe. But surveys are registering a change in attitudes among the other 85 percent, with increased numbers expressing ‘Russia for Russians’ attitudes, approving of using energy to blackmail Europe, citing longer lists of ‘enemies of Russia,’ etc”

****

Standard neocon/Soros funded neolib hypocrisy.

Russia doesn’t have enemies or not so friendly forces confronting it?

The EU tells Serbia it can’t expect to join that org. until the Kosovo conflict is resolved in the form of Belgrade agreeing to let the disputed province go. The US still has an embargo on Cuba.

“Given Russia’s extreme multinational character, I think any kind of radical ethnic Russian nationalism seizing control of the state would lead to rapid territorial disintegration of the country. I think the Kremlin is perfectly aware of this.”

Actually, that is one of the possible scenarios… The problem is putting the genie back in the bottle. I think the great power nationalism stuff was/is supported on high (or not stopped) because it was vygodno, but there is that tipping point when it becomes uncontrollable. I hasten to add that I don’t think this will necessarily happen, but rather that it is a danger.

I have seen some surveys that look at regional differences, but I can’t recall them off the top of my head. Have you ever been to Kazan before? I was there quite a while ago, and remember it for a bizarre chat with some Tatar nationalists who insisted, among other things, that St Basil’s had been a mosque in Kazan that was taken apart and rebuilt in Moscow after Ivan the Terrible conquered the city. They also told me a lot about the pernicious influence of Russians on Tatars, which was a mirror of the Russian nationalists telling me about the pernicious influence of the Tatars on Russians…

It will be interesting to hear your impressions.

One can find “pernicious” attitudes between various groups in America.

Marat Safin among many other Tatars hasn’t faced discrimination.

In terms of autonomy, Tatarstan reflects everything that Chechnya could have peacefully been.

Like Kalmykia, Tatarstan reveals how greater independence from Moscow doesn’t necessarily mean greater democracy.

I’ve been to Kazan once, but it was only for a day and I was with my then-girlfriend, so I wasn’t really looking around much. I’m quite interested in Tatars, actually.

I think great power nationalism is a counterweight to ethnic nationalism, or can be. It requires identification with the state rather than with an ethnic group.

From the original article:

“The group, who is responsible for attacks on religious Jews, immigrants”

So this is a group of immigrants beating up other immigrants?

When I was in Kazan’ for a week back in 2005, I didn’t notice it being mucn different from any other Russian city save for the lovely new mosque, some of the people looked a bit different, and the road signs were all in dual-language. Yuzhno-Sakhalins with its huge Korean population seems more abnormal.

BTW, I regularly walk around Yuzhnii with my Rubin Kazan’ football shirt on. Most Russians have no idea who they are, despite them playing in the top division.

I was in Kazan in 2005 too.

I saw more people wearing Islamic clothing in half an hour in JFK airport in New York than I saw in an entire day in Muslim Kazan, or in seven years in Russia.

During the NHL strike, AK Bars Kazan had a star studded multi-national roster which would’ve qualified for the NHL playoffs. It got knocked out in the Russian Super League quarterfinals. NY Yankees syndrome of the highest paid roster not winning it all.

Regarding jerseys, see:

http;//www.russianjerseys.com

That’s http://www.russianjerseys.com

This link has 11 photos related to that AK Bars Kazan team:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/27/hockeygallery/page6.shtml

Here’s another:

http://www.russianhockeyjerseys.com/index.php

Well, I was in Kazan in the early 90s during the peak, I think, of Tatar nationalism. I thought the city was quite pretty, though run down as most cities were then. This is probably of no interest, but Tatarstan is quite progressive in health care and particularly reproductive health and HIV-AIDS, and has been funding their own decent work.

CM, on great power vs ethnic nationalism — agreed. But unfortunately here the two are largely blurred.

Ah, the early 90s, the heyday of kooky post-Soviet nationalisms…

Did you know that Ukrainian is the world’s oldest language, and Buddha was a Ukrainian? That the Koran was written by a Chechen, and Noah’s Ark ran aground on a Chechen mountain? That the Bashkir tribes shared a common background with the English? That Jesus was an Ossetian? Really, it’s all true!

“The church called them Christ killers and insisted that they performed ritual murders of Christian babies”

This was abolished by Imperial decree in the early 1800s IIRC. The prosecution in the Beilis trial actually could not find an Orthodox priest willing to stand up in court and testify to the existence of Blood Libel — they had to drag in a Catholic teacher of Hebrew from Tashkent to do so.

Dear Sean,

While this thread has improved in quality here a little at the end, it has basic problems that nobody actually listens to each other and half the people (who shall remain nameless) seem nuts.

Please blog on this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070912/ap_on_re_eu/russia_government and kill/bury this thread.

Best,
Buster

“While this thread has improved in quality here a little at the end, it has basic problems that nobody actually listens to each other and half the people (who shall remain nameless) seem nuts.”

You can’t talk about Tim Newman that way!

That doesn’t mean that it’s therefore okay for Russia to ignore or downplay its hate crimes; nor does it mean that no one in the world should comment on them; and certainly it doesn’t mean that the world shouldn’t worry about them.

Considering we have over 100 posts on this topic on this thread alone, I don’t feel most of us downplay the topic of this problem in Russia.

However, I can easily demonstrate bias with newspaper articles of similar hateful events, attacks, or murders within the U.S. and Russia. The character of language American or English-language news media uses is completely different depending on where the crime occurs. In fact, I’ve done blog posts on this topic in the past. 5 dead black men in one Boston neighborhood is a statistic or coincidence in the U.S. It gets a small blurb in the Boston Globe, a footnote.

In Russia, if 5 black students were murdered in St. Petersburg in one year, it would be evidence of a hate crime and sign of rising neo-nazi fascism. It’s like a bad Yakov Smirnoff joke. Why is that? I believe this is because anxiety or angst about problems in Russia plays into Cold-War era fears and sell newspapers – and dealing directly with our own social ills is more difficult.

I think you’re wrong about the U.S. willingness to deal with our own bigotry, hatred, and social ills. I’ve cited the list of over 600 hate-groups in the US in this forum before. Our murder rate is the highest of any Western or “1st World” nation, placing us squarely in the midst of nations we consider less civilized. It has been this way for a long time in America. If we are dealing with such problems, then we are REALLY bad at it. Certainly our governments own actions these last 6 years reveals America’s most base and dark instincts.

On the flipside, Russia passes lots of laws regarding extremism and hate crimes, but then simply allows petty-ante judges, mayors, and police forces to use them to restrict the voices of undesirable (generally more liberal) individuals.

If you think such discussions minimize or downplay problems in Russia, then I’m afraid I can’t help you. I’ll willingly point out that Russia’s murder rate is 4 to 5 times that of the U.S., per capita. 5th highest murder rate in the world. What I won’t do is demonize the facts or discuss Russian problems in a vacuum, as though no other social ills existed in the world (or here at home).

Victor Zubkov, interesting.

I’ve been saying for a while now that Putin nominating someone off the chart may play into any political strategies for his return in 2012.

“What I won’t do is demonize the facts or discuss Russian problems in a vacuum, as though no other social ills existed in the world (or here at home).”

I’d also like to point out that these people are Israelis, not Russian citizens. I am not sure if any of them had ever been to Russia. I think that to explain their behavior one would be better advised to look at the situation in Israel, rather than try to explain it by reference to the Russian media and so forth, which it is unclear they ever actually watched, read or listened to, or to Russian government policies.

Please blog on this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070912/ap_on_re_eu/russia_government and kill/bury this thread.

Your wish is my command, oh great one.

http://accidentalrussophile.blogspot.com/2007/09/putins-hudsucker-proxy-zubkov-nominated.html

I saw this coming for a while now. I took Putin at his word when he repeatedly hinted that some outside candidate may be his choice (although I was thinking of someone like Valentina Matviyenko).

Of course, he could throw another curveball and nominate someone else for the presidency. As a political strategy, the more divisions in power he leaves behind, the easier it would be for his return in 2012.

Yes, very good point by Maximus to bring the threads of thought together and return us to Israel.

Considering we have over 100 posts on this topic on this thread alone, I don’t feel most of us downplay the topic of this problem in Russia.

But aren’t like half of them downplaying Russian ethnic violence?

Regarding the complete RED HERRING of “why don’t you pay attention to racism in America,” please go to my blog and peruse the blogs/sites linked in the right-hand column. I’ll bet that half of them have some criticism of racism in the USA on their front pages.

This typical dvoinoi standardt line makes me feel the way I feel when I hear a seven-year-old complain “That’s not fair.” Not angry, but certainly not indulgent either.

Now really, please, thread, die.

To be clear, though I quote WS in the above post, I am not referring to him as the one wielding the fish.

This thread will never die. It will go on and on, until at some point in the far future it will acquire sentience and worship us as its gods.

Buster, I’ve also responded to your command and blogged about Mr. Zubakov.

Regarding something you said much earlier:

The possibility brings up the curious idea of Russia as an exilic haven for fugitive racists, in light of the current Andrei Vusik (tied to the California murder) situation.

It’s not an entirely new idea, as Russia has been accused of sheltering wanted war criminals from the former Yugoslav conflicts (see, e.g., here and here).

Lyndon:

How about the un-indicted Albanian KLA goons that have been repackaged as acceptable political leaders? The NATO kangaroo court at the Hague (let’s call it for what it’s been about) is a mockery of the legal system.

“Dear Sean,

While this thread has improved in quality here a little at the end, it has basic problems that nobody actually listens to each other and half the people (who shall remain nameless) seem nuts.”

****

Buster:

Soviet psychiatry if the above quoted is mis-directed. Some do a much better job than others when it comes to directly addressing what their political opposites say. MAB doesn’t do a comparatively better job.

Mike, I don’t know much about the KLA and am not sure how it’s relevant to my comment about Russia harboring wanted war criminals, other than to provide a tenuous comparison allowing you to claim “double standards” yet again.

As for the ICTY, which you call a “kangaroo court,” it has actually meted out justice to people on more than one side of the various conflicts and I think has been generally judged a more or less successful, if somewhat experimental, approach a complex post-conflict situation. Wikipedia has a pretty good article on ICTY, which I think you’ll enjoy, as it outlines many of the criticisms of the tribunal. Incidentally, I thought it was pretty funny that you earlier referred to Wikipedia as “often Russia unfriendly,” as though it has a single editorial policy. That’s sort of impossible, given that it’s written and edited by thousands of people worldwide, including people of every imaginable point of view and many people who try to keep the articles neutral. You might as well say that the whole world, or at least the whole English-speaking world, is “often Russia unfriendly” – and I guess maybe you’d have a point, but I think ascribing some kind of anti-Russian bias to Wikipedia is a bit silly, especially since there are no doubt many English-speaking Russians who contribute to and edit Wikipedia articles. Perhaps there’s a dissertation (or at least a seminar paper) for someone in mining and parsing the differences between articles in the English-language and Russian-language versions of Wikipedia.

But I have digressed from the main point of my comment, which was in itself a bit of a digression from the topic of the post. In any event, you’re wrong to suggest that the court was established by NATO – as I’m sure you know, the ICTY was established by a UN Security Council resolution, which means that Russia did not oppose its establishment – in addition, all members of the UN acknowledge the authority of the UNSC in such matters (it’s in the UN Charter, though, like so many questions of this nature, subject to debate). So it seems like a pretty legitimate institution to me, and hardly a “kangaroo court” (much less a “NATO kangaroo court,” unless you believe that NATO somehow dominates the UN Security Council), though I don’t doubt there are some Serbian nationalists who take the latter view.

Soviet psychiatry if the above quoted is mis-directed.

Mr. Averko, It took me five minutes to try to parse this sentence so it would make sense. Finally, I came up with: “If the above-quoted is Soviet psychiatry, it’s misdirected.” But it wasn’t Soviet psychiatry. I’m neither Soviet, nor trained in psychiatry. I was just using the everyday language of “You’re crazy!” or “That’s nuts.” I like everyday language and highly recommend it to others, who shall still remain nameless.

Re: Wikipedia

There’s an interesting article on research into who contributes to wikipedia (at least in English–I’d be super-curious to know who contributes to the Russian variant). IP addresses indicate folks at the CIA, Congress, Halliburton, and the New York Times. That said, I imagine a number of those revisions/entries just come from bored workers perusing wikipedia, rather than some nefarious plan. But who’s to say? I’ll leave it to the nuts.

http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=4327&catid=4&volume_id=254&issue_id=311&volume_num=41&issue_num=47

Lyndon:

Some influential forces in the West often accuse the UN of having various bureaucracies favoring unjust foreign interests.

You show extreme ignorance for believing that the referenced kangaroo court has been objective. In overall terms it clearly hasn’t.

http://www.swans.com/library/art7/herman01.html

http://www.antiwar.com/szamuely/sz021301.html

http://antiwar.com/orig/jatras.php

Make light of the anti-Russian biases out there. You aren’t alone. Fortunately, there’s growing clout against such deceit.

Hm. Conflicting instructions. Either kill the thread or reply reasonably to criticism.
Buster seems really compelling… will only say that if you read what I wrote, you’ll see that I don’t underestimate the problem of racism in the US or elsewhere, though may overestimate efforts to deal with it. I just don’t see what it has to do with rising nationalist etc violence here. To me they are, in the Russian tradition, flies and cutlets. They both exist, and both are real, but you keep them separate.

Ducking the earlier stated misperceptions (at another SRB thread) like the false belief that Americans are generally better informed than Russains on the wars of the last decade in former Yugoslavia.

Likewise with the prior stated exaggerations pertaining to intolerance in Russia.

Pardon misspell.

Misinterpreting what actually happened or is happening leads to misguided perceptions.

It’s one thing to have a difference of opinion while getting the facts right. Quite another when a questionable opinion is confused with fact(s).

Mike, I’ll allow that ICTY has been perceived as meting out victors’ justice, but I don’t entirely agree with that perception, and I don’t think an element of victors’ justice (present also at Nuremberg Trials) necessarily delegitimizes a proceeding.

Think what you like about these issues, but you’re not doing your side of the argument any favors by swinging your rhetorical cudgel so indiscriminately (e.g., an immediate accusation of “extreme ignorance”).

Perhaps it is indeed time for this thread to die – especially since we can now head over to the latest post and ask Sean about the details of his arrangement with Paj-Media…

Lyndon playing the innocent again, which isn’t the case.

He allows himself to be sarcastic.

Lyndon, compare your last two posts. You back track a bit on your initial portrayal of the ICTY.

As for your reference to Nuremberg, the Serbs didn’t come close to resembling Nazis and their adversaries weren’t comparatively innocent.

Oh God.

Wally: “However, I can easily demonstrate bias with newspaper articles of similar hateful events, attacks, or murders within the U.S. and Russia. The character of language American or English-language news media uses is completely different depending on where the crime occurs. In fact, I’ve done blog posts on this topic in the past. 5 dead black men in one Boston neighborhood is a statistic or coincidence in the U.S. It gets a small blurb in the Boston Globe, a footnote.”

Yes, let’s see what’s happened in the US in just the last few days. Is America lurching toward fascism?:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070912/…_4vPsCYUCs0NUE

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20…tion/4231753_1

http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?S=7050328

http://www.nbc4.com/news/14094778/de…ss=dc&psp=news

http://www.nbc11.com/news/14086228/d…s=bay&psp=news

http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_6846510?source=rss

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim…k.html?ref=rss

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/pa…Y&pageId=3.2.1

http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_6827275?source=rss

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/local_story_252165834.html

You can’t talk about Tim Newman that way!

I live on Sakhalin and am married to a Russian. I’m allowed to be nuts.

I thought the city was quite pretty, though run down as most cities were then.

Kakan is a lot better now, as it recently had its 1,000th year anniversary, (some 40 years after its 750th anniversary or something!). And as is well known, in Russia every 1,000 years the authorities mend the road and paint the buildings, so it looks really nice now. My advice is go and take another look in 3005.

Kakan? Where is this city of strange name? I meant Kazan.

W. Spartacus wrote: “5 dead black men in one Boston neighborhood is a statistic or coincidence in the U.S. It gets a small blurb in the Boston Globe, a footnote.”

I think that if those 5 black men were murdered by gangs of young skinheads, they would have been more than a simple footnote. I agree it is sad that Americans have become so desensitized to violence in inner city neighborhoods, to the point where we don’t even flinch when we hear about the latest murder on the evening news. I also find it deplorable that the American government has been so ineffective at reducing crime in these neighborhoods. But the idea that “nobody in the US cares about domestic hate crimes,” as W. Shedd suggested, is an exaggeration. Claudius Maximus posted a bunch of links (most of which were invalid) to stories on hate crimes. I admit I hadn’t heard about any of them, but I’m guessing that they were big news in the communities where they happened. Here at Indiana University, we’ve had several acts of vandalism at the local mosque. I’m guessing that folks in New York never heard about them (which some folks here would interpret as proof that Americans don’t care about hate crimes), but they were a pretty big deal here and led to all the usual flowery calls for inter-cultural peace and harmony, outspoken condemnations in the local papers, and even a small protest. And the more egregious instances involving brutal white-on-black murders certainly do garner national attention. I can think of a half-dozen such cases. I do agree with some of the posters here that the extent and significance of racist violence in Russia is exaggerated in the Western press, and I know that there are many Russian journalists, academics and even politicians who are genuinely concerned about the problem. But it is a serious problem, one that should concern Russians and foreign scholars of Russia, keeping in mind that we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we have solved all of these problems in our own countries.

My name is Chrisius Maximus. Claudius is my older, better-known brother, with whom I am often confused. Will I never step out from under his shadow?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think what is really of interest in this story is what it may say about conditions in Israel, not Russia.

I don’t think this is all that surprising. You have people growing up who don’t identify as Jews in a society that is obsessed with Jewishness. These people are economically second-class and discriminated against. They feel like outsiders. It would be surprising if things like this DIDN’T happen.

“That is, biological concepts and arguments about who is and who isn’t a Jew. But it’s even more than that. Those biological arguments (whether such and such Russian really has such and such Jewish family member) have slipped into the realm of political ideology in that a person who is a “Jewish Nazi” somehow undermines the very essence of his own “Jewishness” and therefore can’t be a “Jew.””

I think it might be worthwhile to go and read Vladimir Jabotinsky (or “Vladimir Hitler,” as Ben Gurion called him) in this context.

The blue shirts as opposed to the black shirts and brown shirts.

Sean, check this last paragraph:

“But these questions are likely to be ignored. If reader responses are any indication, targeting Israel’s Russian immigrant population as the breeding ground for wayward youth seems to be the comfortable route. Somehow, however, I doubt explaining racism with racism will do much to alleviate the problem. It will only shroud it further with nationalist fetishisms that will only inflame calls to exact the Russian cancer from Israeli’s otherwise healthy body politic.”

****

That last sentence is open to question.

At this thread, there was a misguided view that Russians are inherently anti-Jewish/bigoted in a way not found in many other quarters. When challenged, there was a bit of intellectual gymnastics displayed. The at one time they were mode is relative, given what existed at one time in other parts of Europe.

I come from a multi-ethno-religious family which includes many experiences over the course of time. I get offended when Russians are caricatured (as is often the case among some establishment types), while knowing what exists among other groups. One time, in reply to a bigoted Jew, I coined the term Kosher Nazi to underscore my disgust with the kind of mass media, academic and body politic hypocrisy that nurtures such sentiment.

An example of different standards: the not so Russia friendly novelist John le Carre referred to the Ossetians as mischievous interlopers into other people’s land. When he stated this in a NYT op-ed some years back (shortly after the USSR collapsed), there was no outrage. Were that said about some others, there would be a good degree of protests against such a characterization.

Ths relates to a certain DC based attorney, who erroneously put the anti-Semitic tag on someone as said attorney willingly appears on LR. Like others, he doesn’t speak out against official acts of Russia hating bigotry like the Captive Nations Committee/Captive Nations Week. The elitny take good care of him.

That many are unaware of the CNC/CNW further underscores the ignorance and hypocrisy out there.

As Leon Hadar’s commentary suggests, it’s not out of the ordinary for Israel to have positive and negative traits associated with Europe:

http://globalparadigms.blogspot.com/2007/09/israel-and-eu.html

Then again, just how European are those traits? Is it more a matter of some being overly Euro focused in a way which often overlooks what’s going on elsewhere?

Here you go Sean:

“It will only shroud it further with nationalist fetishisms that will only inflame calls to exact the Russian cancer from Israeli’s otherwise healthy body politic.”

***

Just how “healthy” is Israel’s body politic? The quoted passage seems to suggest a Russian corupting of something already having existing faults. Like the threatened prosecution of Israeli Druze who recently visited Syria.

More than one person harped on the historically anti-Semitic/bigoted Russian theme.

I can’t control how people choose to reply to what I say and I do find it somewhat disingenuous how anti-Russian prejudices aren’t studied in as great a detail. The latter is arguably more dangerous in the sense that it’s more intelligently presented and done so at some relatively high profile venues.

I don’t think I have ever met a Russian that would deny that Russia has historically been anti-Semitic. That would be like an American denying that the US has historically been racist. It’s just a fact that not even Solzhenitsyn denies. In fact there is much discussion of this in the Russian press and many books are written on it. Just look at the long series Vlast has been doing reprinting articles from the newspapers at the time of the Revolution addressing this very subject.

Never having ANYTHING matching Nazi Germany or the Spanish Inquisition. Not as bad as how Blacks and Indians have been treated in the US. Ditto the Turkish genocide of Armenians. Russians are being tagged as racists in a way not seen of Americans, Turks and some others.

Someone at this thread said that thousands of Jews were expelled in the late 19th century from St. Pete and Moscow in the late 19th century. I once again request citations(s) on that claim.

Why not the emphasis on other points like the number of intermarriages between Jews and Russians, two post-Soviet prime ministers of known Jewish origin (to no American vice presidents or presidents of known Jewish background), or how other Euros have been arguably more anti-Jewish?

“Someone at this thread said that thousands of Jews were expelled in the late 19th century from St. Pete and Moscow in the late 19th century.”

Use google.

Are you calling Solzhenitysn a liar?

I sense that most Russians would share my sentiment.

They’re not to be confused with the Russians more preferred by many Eng. lang. mass media outlets.

No, they wouldn’t.

“Chrisius Maximus on September 13, 2007 5:13 pm ‘Someone at this thread said that thousands of Jews were expelled in the late 19th century from St. Pete and Moscow in the late 19th century.’

Use google.

Are you calling Solzhenitysn a liar?”

****

Show me where he (or anyone else) substantiates that point.

Meantime, the above quoted had earlier showed pogrom figures lower than what has been citede elsewhere.

“Chrisius Maximus on September 13, 2007 5:16 pm No, they wouldn’t.”

***

Bullshit. You don’t speak for them. I’ve spoken to my share.

You, who stereotype the White Russian community.

“Show me where he (or anyone else) substantiates that point.”

Read his book. It’s heavy on the footnotes.

“You don’t speak for them.”

You don’t either.

I speak for them better than yourself.

You’re punking out on the first point. Heavy on footnotes doesn’t give credence to the claim being questioned.

Prior post of mine meant to go before Sean’s.

“Punk out”?

Read the book.

Sean:

Thanks for the clarification.

It’s easy to misintepret. On that point: you might recall how you reposted a comment of mine which addressed observations made by Maya about Ivanov and yours truly.

I think it’s fair to say that part of the disconnect relates to the differences in sympathy some have on the matter of national identity.

CD:

Once again, does Solzhenitsyn or anyone else substantiate the stated claim at this thread of thousands of Jews being expelled from Moscow and St. Pete during the late 19th century?

Come to think of it, I did translate for the benefit of friends a few pages of Solzhenitsyn’s two-tome monolith on Russo-Jewish history a couple of years ago. If anybody’s interested in them I can send them to you.

Let’s see. I go through the hard, back-breaking labor of googling ‘Alexander Assassination Moscow “expulsions of Jews”‘, and in 30 seconds I get this: http://www.angelfire.com/ms2/belaroots/wolf.htm

Let’s see. After going going through the 30 seconds of back-breaking labor it takes to google ‘Alexander Assassination Moscow “expulsions of Jews”‘, I get this: http://www.angelfire.com/ms2/belaroots/wolf.htm

And where’s the confirmation/substantiation of thousands of Jews being expelled from St. Pete and Moscow during the late 19th century?

That was the specific inquiry.

It’s in the document.

Where?

1891.
This year was a year of lamentation and panic, the fears aroused by the wholesale expulsions from Moscow causing no fewer than 76,000 persons to seek refuge in the United States.

1893.
This year the right of residence again suffered further curtailments, but, as will be seen, there were limitations in other directions as well:-

January 14th. – A circular of the Minister of the Interior cancels the orders of the former Ministers Makoff and Tolstoi (April 3rd, 1880 and June 21st, 1882) establishing the principle that all Jews who had settled outside the Pale prior to April 3rd 1880, should be left undisturbed.
This circular was the cause of _many thousand expulsions_ from places where the authorities had followed the former regulations. It is true that the Jews were usually given a respite until June 1st, 1894, and in extreme cases to June 1st, 1895, but the measure none the less meant utter ruin for most of them.

1897.

November 13th. – An Imperial order depriving Jews and Jewesses studying pharmacy, or attending schools of surgery and midwifery respectively of the right to reside in the town or government of Moscow for this purpose.
This year, as is fully related elsewhere, they went so far as to expel from Moscow merchants of the first Guild, and to arrest persons “of Semitic physiognomy” in the streets in broad daylight, handing them over subsequently to the police to be deported. Some conception of the devastation wrought among the Jewish community of Moscow may be formed from the fact that of five synagogues only one remained, and that the Jewish school, or “Talmud Tora” had been compelled to close its doors. In Siberia, too. where the domiciliary right of the privileged Jews had been questioned or curtailed, the bureaucracy fumed and fretted, and wholesale expulsions were the rule. In Tomsk alone some 800 Jewish families who possessed real estate were on this account victimised and driven out.

Don’t forget this detail:

1891 – March 28th. – An order depriving the privileged category of artisans, mechanics, etc., of the right of residence in the government of Moscow (including the town of Moscow as well). The Jews of this category settled there, numbering with their families ten thousand souls, are expelled without delay.

Ah, I missed that one. Thanks Lyndon.

Well, Buster, I’m sorry. I tried, I really did, but the thread that will never die lives on.

I seem to be the poster who has drawn Mr Averko’s ire. But as Sean pointed out, his portrayal of my point of view has been turned into a straw man. As others like Brandon and Claudius — um, er — no, I mean the younger, more handsome and talented brother — Chrisius Maximus have stated more eloquently than me, when there is a historical trend of anti-Semitism and racism in a country, be it the US or Russia, it doesn’t mean that everyone is anti-Semitic or racist, or that they are more anti-Semitic or racist than anyone in the world, or that the country will remain that way until the end of time. (Boy do I sound like a fourth-grader or what?) But I believe that a country has to put efforts into overcoming it. Or else it pops up, usually in times of economic or social upheavals. And it might — might, I said — mutate into something truly nasty.

I have refrained from replying to the many other attacks on me by Mr Averko because, well, sorry to be blunt, but it’s like the joke about the old conductor’s advice to the new conductor about the trombones: Don’t even look at them — it only encourages them. It seems that you want to do your haigiography of Russia, facts be damned. And anyone who questions the sainthood gets labeled as stupid, biased, right-wing, hypocritical, anti-Russian and generally all around nasty.

Calling me biased against Russians is pretty wild, unless you think I’m a masochist, since I’ve been living in Russia longer than some of you have probably been alive, and I’m about as integrated into Russian society as anyone with a different colored passport can be. For all I know I may the longest American resident of Moscow. I started reading this blog because I realized that I didn’t know what the vast West was writing about Russia. I don’t have cable TV, and the magazines I get keep me up to date (sort of) on the US, but not much on what’s being written about Russia. Oh — there’s JRL, but that’s David’s quirky selection of articles, so it doesn’t show what someone in, say Peoria, is reading every day.

In any case, I’m not part of whatever great debate is going on in the US about Russia and I’m not in the whole Kremlin-watching, poly sci crowd. I’m writing about what I know here, personally, from friends, from my work, and from a wide variety of Russian news and other sources. Nationalism, anti-Semitism, racism (a new problem), and xenophobia concern me because I can personally feel a difference, and when the time frame of experience is nearly 30 years (yes, I’m an old broad — but young at heart, honestly), I trust my senses. To repeat myself (because no one is going to dig through this pile of posts), so far the worst of it is marginal and it may never grow beyond that. But it makes me nervous that there isn’t any kind of concerted, all-around effort to stop it.

And it makes me personally nervous when teens gather in my courtyard to drink after a football game and the ladies in the local store tell me to rush home “just in case.” The poster who calls himself Irishman wrote about something like happening to him once. It’s really something. It makes you sit up and take notice. I had interviewed African students before, and that made me sit up and take notice, too, since the orientation they give the new students when they arrive is to tell them to basically stay off the streets after 5 pm. I’ve also translated for Jewish organizations, and when there are armed guards with you “just in case,” you begin to see a bad trend.

Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be taken as implied comparison with other countries, exisitng now or in the past; be perceived as a blanket condemnation of any nation, ethnic group, religion, community or group of individuals; nor be understood as a defense or praise of any other nation, ethnic group, religion, community, or group of individuals.

“As others like Brandon and Claudius — um, er — no, I mean the younger, more handsome and talented brother — Chrisius Maximus ”

Recognition at last! Sweet! Take that, Claudius!

I keep thinking the “thousands expelled” query is a trick question that I will be sorry to answer, but the figures the Jewish community use are 2000 from St Pete and 20,000 from Moscow. That’s all over the internet. I’d give a citation for a source in Russian, but I gather Mr Averko doesn’t read Russian; it describes the life of the artist of Isaac Levitan, and how many times he got kicked out of Moscow in various campaigns.

You’ve been here 30 years? You never knew the Lockshins, did you? I used to work with the son.

Thanks.

The above quoted confirms that many Jews lived in Russia proper despite the Pale of Settlement.

That era in Russia had many educated Jews who became educated in that country in a collective way that American Blacks and Indians weren’t during the same period.

The Antonsecu era and what’s evident in present day Romania and Moldova isn’t so enlighhtening.

Here’s a seemingly politicized report:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm

Note how Russia and Belarus are singled out. Are those two really more anti-Jewish than others like say Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Hungary, Latvia and Lithuania?

On matters of bigotry, the State Dept. says nothing about the bigoted anti-Russian Captive Nations Committee/Captive Nations Week Resolution which is still official.

See, I told you it was a trick question.
Nope, didn’t know the Lokshins.

MAB: keep dreaming all you want. Some of what you’ve said here about Russia and Serbia is in fact biased.

Like your know it all attitude about Srebrenica and the makeup of the NATO bombing campaign.

You clearly have some very Eng. lang. mass media like biases.

So, by this logic, when Blacks are lynched in Mississippi, that means that Blacks were already alive in the area to lynch, and so Mississippi doesn’t have a history of racism. If they were really racist, they would have lynched them earlier!

“Chrisius Maximus on September 13, 2007 7:03 pm So, by this logic, when Blacks are lynched in Mississippi, that means that Blacks were already alive in the area to lynch, and so Mississippi doesn’t have a history of racism. If they were really racist, they would have lynched them earlier!”

****

Wrong!

It was previously suggested that Russia proper didn’t have a signicantly sized Jewish population because of the Pale.

As for old Miss., do you think the Blacks there have had it comparatively better?

Population in Pale: 5 million
Population outside Pale: 200,000

1897 census

Now that that’s cleared up, anybody have any thoughts about Israeli society and all that?

Check these comments about Russian Israelis from an Arab:

http://www.dutchpal.com/kawther/K20040808A.html

As an undergrad studying international affairs, I’d read the UN Monthly Chronicle which has some rather absurd Cold War era exchanges. Like the Saudi delegate accusing the Soviets of supporting Israel with his stated evidence being the influx of Soviet citizens into the Jewish state.

On how a topic is covered, during the 1973 war, the Israelis frequently quoted Sadat’s admiration for Nazi Germany. That point was deflated after Camp David.

Oh sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never harm me…
Gosh, this is bringing out the worst of me.

I think, Mr Averko, you ought to look up the word “bias” in a dictionary and use it more advisedly.
It would also be good if you’d actually read what people write and comment on their actual postings instead of what you imagine them to have written.

Mab, Please get ready for a response that makes no sense. There’s no use bothering, really. I spent all daying praying I would come home to the comment count remaining unchanged. Such are the useless dreams of a man walking in Moscow. (Still praying.)

So, by this logic, when Blacks are lynched in Mississippi, that means that Blacks were already alive in the area to lynch, and so Mississippi doesn’t have a history of racism. If they were really racist, they would have lynched them earlier!

They were racist in Mississippi.

They just weren’t efficient racists.

Hey, you changed your name back to Shedd. Are you ashamed of your Roman heritage? Are you some kind of court appointed not so Roman Empire friendly?

The worst Roman is a self-hating Roman.

Speaking of which, the Romans never killed all the Christians. They just crucified notable ones. That means the pre-Constantine Romans had a liberal attitude toward Christianity. If you say otherwise, that’s because you hate Italians, you racist bastard.

I think everyone is overlooking the most important question of all: the lack of a kosher kitchen in the White House!

Just joking. Couldn’t resist. I can’t even read most of the comments here anymore, despite the fact that I know some of you are making valiant efforts. Too bad they are all in vain.

CM: You win a nabovka gold star for your fine use of census statistics! Bravo! And thanks. The sick and ridiculous claim that the Pale of the Settlement was a quote “paper law” made me want to vomit.

That’s all. Please pardon my interruption.

mab, take heart – as you may have seen, Mr. Averko has at one time or another brought out the worst in just about everyone who frequents the SRB comments section. On the bright side, I think this post might have what it takes to break the all-time SRB comments record of 413.

nabovka – that’s also been my favorite “argument” from this thread. I’ve taken to thinking of it as the KKK argument (Kremlin Kosher Kitchen), and it sure is konvincing – especially after being repeated a few times!

Ooops … by not using my ancient Roman name, I have revealed that my comment was made from my laptop at home – as opposed to my laptop at work.

Here a laptop, there a laptop, everywhere a laptop laptop.

Christ, mab 30 years in Moscow – that means you were there in 1977. Willingly. I’m afraid my in-laws wouldn’t believe it if I told them. I’ll have to tell them in the morning.

I wonder what would happen if we decided to switch all commentary to Russian.

I wonder what would happen if we decided to switch all commentary to Russian.

Я бы делал много ошибки.

Some people’s Russian would improve.

The asshole factor strikes again in the form of Nabovka misrepresenting what was said about the Pale and selectively jibing at the Kosher kitchen point, while ignoring the others made in that particular sequence.

Her selective cheerleading reamins most unimpressive.

Lyndon Allin is being an out and out demagogue, as per his own sordid track record of dubious impressions. Like the one he recently made about Russia and indicted Serb leaders relative to the involved abomination of a legal system.

Just setting the record straight.

“mab on September 13, 2007 8:07 pm Oh sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never harm me…
Gosh, this is bringing out the worst of me.

I think, Mr Averko, you ought to look up the word ‘bias’ in a dictionary and use it more advisedly. It would also be good if you’d actually read what people write and comment on their actual postings instead of what you imagine them to have written.”

****

I do a much better job than yourelf mab and you’re very biased in an Eng. lang. mass media kind of a way. Reference your claims about Srebrenica and the 1999 NATO bombing campaign.

BTW, in its hey day (pre-Soviet breakup) Novoye Russkoye Slovo was the leading Russian language news publication in the US. It had a White Russian slant and was largely staffed by Jews.

*yawn*

Mike, if you want to “set the record straight,” you might try writing something that makes at least a little bit of sense. Not sure we’ll get to even 300 comments at this rate. Bring back the Irishman!

Lyndon

That last post of yours further confirms my comments about you. You’re the one carrying on with nonsense.

Sean & Co.

At an earlier thread, Nabovka acknowledged an asshole side to her manner.

I was actually hoping to stay on a civil tone. Note how someone recently wanted to discuss the Israeli situation. I proceeded to post a link related to that subject. Regretfully, a troll patrol barrage followed.

Among others, Sean recently commended me on my BBC panel performance.

I know how to behave thank you. Post insults and expect a return volley. That’s more than fair.

Wally, по-моему некоторые из нас здесь уже пробовали переходить на русский – насколько я помню это привело к тому, что Г-н А. начал злиться и перечислять типа видные Russia analysts которые не владеют русским, дабы оправдать его собственное невладение этим языком. Хотя мне кажется что под конец он узнал об интернет-переводчиках и начал что-то соображать – наверно лучше всего было бы разговаривать на транслите. Ne dumaiu, chto est’ internet-perevodchik, kotoryi by pereviol translit neposredstvenno na angliiskii, khotia kto znaet, internet bol’shoi, ves’ ne obishchesh…

В любом случае, наши прежние попытки обсуждать дела на русском были, мне кажется, достаточно забавные для остальных участников разговора. Однако в архивах всё это дело окутано тайной, так как переход на Wordpress оставил лишь вопросительные знаки. Может пора нам снова заговорить на (великом могучем) русском?

“Chrisius Maximus on September 13, 2007 11:24 pm Hey, you changed your name back to Shedd. Are you ashamed of your Roman heritage? Are you some kind of court appointed not so Roman Empire friendly?

The worst Roman is a self-hating Roman.

Speaking of which, the Romans never killed all the Christians. They just crucified notable ones. That means the pre-Constantine Romans had a liberal attitude toward Christianity. If you say otherwise, that’s because you hate Italians, you racist bastard.”

****

Some more distorting sarcasm done with a Machialavellian intent.

At an earlier thread, Nabovka acknowledged an asshole side to her manner.

At least someone around here recognizes his/her “asshole side.” I think the particular side that I referenced in the past was my snarky one. Мне не стыдно.

How very “Machialavellian” of me.

Seriously, MA, my joke about the kosher kitchen wasn’t even meant malevolently. My criticism of your claim that the Pale of the Settlement was a “paper law” was, however, most earnest. Just because I disagree with you does not mean that I have distorted what you said (i.e., that the Pale was a “paper law”).

And, MA, I honestly believe that people around here would gladly cheerlead you if you weren’t an “Eng. lang. mass media” (in the sense that you seem to mean it) unto yourself.

I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I would be most glad to encounter an MA who brings an open mind to SRB and who doesn’t regularly trade in on-or-off-topic hyperbole. I do appreciate your enthusiasm, if not always your methods or conclusions. In fact, I give your enthusiasm a “nabovka gold star.” Enjoy it.

К стати, я бы тоже делала много ошибок.

Nabovka

I acknowledge what a censoring editor called my attitude of an “all is fair in war” attitude in the form of an eye for an eye.

My point about the Pale was that despite its existence, it didn’t prevent Russia proper from having a noticeably sized Jewish population. I understand it to haven’t always been enforced. On a related note, I’m on the verge of possibly discovering something that’s otherwise considered rather unique regarding Russian-Jewish history. Anr aspect of “my media” (if you may), is the and coverage of areas not so well known by many of the top talking head scholars on Russia. Topics like Vlasov, Suvorov, and the Captive Nations Committee. Not to be overlooked is the covering the coverage mode which critically reviews how a number of topics are covered. That last aspect annoys some elitny, whose wallet connections become highlighted.

With Aleks and Wally chiming in, the record shows that I provided considerable detail debunking the myth that Russians don’t have a good idea of what happened in former Yugoslavia. I also provided enough substantive backup in support of the view that the ICTY is essentially a NATO kangaroo court and that it’s hypocritically wrong to lambaste Russia for having supposedly hosted indicted Serb “war criminals” (which to me is an often very relative term), given the un-indicted/repackaged KLA goons roaming wild in Kosovo.

I’ll take the star as a compliment

“Хотя мне кажется что под конец он узнал об интернет-переводчиках и начал что-то соображать”

Hey, that makes sense. That’s why the Власов был зоофил was never addressed issue, since зоофил is not a word likely to be in Internet dictionaries.

Well, Mr Averko has declared victory, so maybe we can all go home.

On my srok in Russia — it’s been nearly 30 years, since 1978, with one period of a couple of years mostly away. I sat down one day and figured out that I’ve spent about 25 of the last 29 years here. I’m very glad for the Soviet years, since it gives some perspective on what’s happening now. Although at the time it was sometimes quite rough. Well, as Russians say, what does not kill us makes us strong…

I’m quite envious mab. I would love to have been able to see the Brezhnev years (given that I was 13 when he did, that would have been unlikely). I would love to hear what you have to say about racism in that era, or lack thereof.

Wally, I can’t tell you how much it saddens my proud Roman heart to hear that you had to exchange the fine, viril name of Sparticus for the more American-sounding Shedd in order to get a job as a Roman immigrant in the United States. My heart goes out to you and your family. I blame the negative image of Romans in the Eng. lang. mas media and the mchinations of the wealthy financier from Gaul, Georgo Sorosititintix. Many Gauls have anti-Roman biases.

On the Israeli thing, it should be noted that sephardic jews, many of which were airlifted out of Ethiopia, Yemen and the like by the israeli airforce at various times (http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,962706,00.html° have also complained about racism against them. They certainly did receive some shabby treatment (http://www.newstatesman.com/200511210027), though how relative this is to the new wave immigrants into Israel during the 1990s who also complained of being on the bottom of the scale, I can’t say.

A second point I’d like to make is about the change in jewish ‘identity’ pre- and post creation of Israel. Previously, strict identity laws (to be considered jewish, only your mum needs be fully kosher) helped to keep identity in a world where the jews were never really settled (i.e. subject to discrimination, not allowed to own land and packed off elsewhere).

Now that Israel exists, there is the whole israeli/jew issue. As a state, and the protections it affords, the strictness of previous laws and traditions to protect identity has significantly(?) weakened, hence the increasing divide between the orthadox/ultra-orthadox (is there really a quantifiable difference) and the regulars. The irony here is that the orthadox/ultra-orthadox used ex-soviet ‘jews’ to bolster their hand (1990s immigration), despite the relative lack of jewish identity. The sov-jews haven’t experienced 5 wars and brought the soviet ‘nyet’ mentality to Israel, hence skewing the political landscape. I suppose the easiest way to describe it is their ‘other’ jewish history.

It would be interesting to compare the ex-sov jews to the ex-sov germans who have moved to germany (if they could prove blood-linkage (if I recall correctly). I have a feeling that similar themes would arise.

So, after my very long winded though above, I really don’t see it at all bizarre or contradictory that there is ‘jew on jew anti-semitism’. As for the Israeli press, they are certainly shocked, but there have long been stories and reports about the problems of integrating the ex-sov jew, not to mention the sephardis…

One a small side note, The jewish autonomous region out east was set up in the late 1920s (http://www.eao.ru/eng/?p=361), which still exists. Then again,I only found out about it when MosNews reported that a man in Birofeld blew himself up after trying to recover scrap material from a live anti-aircraft missile…

How I miss MosNews.

I’ve never been able to quite figure out what this “Soviet mentality” people talk about is supposed to be.

On the “Soviet mentality” question — I don’t really believe in it, but I can give you a clear example of the last time I heard it used in front of me — one week ago. I was coming home and stopped by the pirozhki window to grab a samsa s myasom, as I am want to do when I don’t walk home past the chebureki stand. There were about five people queued up in front of me and after about a minute, I noticed that we weren’t moving. I asked the woman in line ahead of me if there was anyone in the kiosk. Nope.

My American friend immediately ejaculated, “Totally fucking Soviet.” I took this to refer to the penchant for lining up for what may never come. Especially when there’s another place to buy pretty much all the same things about 100 meters away.

Like I said, I don’t really buy the idea, but since I have no embraced this thread, and no longer believe in God, I’ve decided to contribute to its growth, as I’m sure MA will object to my English language mASS media presentation of the line outside the kiosk and attack me for not noticing that Americans line up to vote every four years in elections that don’t matter. Or something like that.

I actually have more faith in you that that, MA. Show me some even better comparison. I know you’ve got it in you. I even handed you the useful verb “ejaculate” above, and I’m sure you know what to do with it.

“I even handed you the useful verb “ejaculate” above, and I’m sure you know what to do with it.”

Not according to his ex-wife. Hyuck, hyuck.

It would be interesting to see what an israeli has to say about this. I’m going to write a guy I know in Tel Aviv and ask.

Buster, welcome to the dark side. The “Soviet mentality” idea, in my experience, is used by Russians and other post-Soviet people (fairly often) and expats (also often) to mean different and various things. Expats are more likely to use it to complain about their quality of life, co-workers, etc., or even about things that can sometimes be just as bad in the U.S. (e.g., customer service), but then some expats spend altogether too much complaining about their lives in Moscow, given what an awesome city it usually is.

The context I’ve sometimes heard it used in (by Russians and expats) is to describe a weak or unambitious work ethic, someone who wants to do only the minimum of what’s within the exact contours of their paper job description and nothing more (i.e., not a “team player,” or not “proactive,” in the icky parlance of HR-speak). I think that’s more a function of my experience in Russia than of the term’s more common usages, although this recent NTV item (the top Rambler result when searching for “cоветский менталитет”) uses it in the employment context. I guess queue-standing might also play in there, at least as an indication of one’s ability to spend time aimlessly.

I think the idea of cоветский менталитет, at least as it’s commonly used, encompasses an array of attitudes towards other people, social class, foreigners, and other things, which most people would consider to be undesirable or worthy of criticism – e.g., to take a stab at a partial list, guarded, resentful of others’ success, defensive and thin-skinned. It might be noted that these could all just be traits of a generally disagreeable person and don’t have to have anything to so with Soviet-ness, but the term is sometimes used in my experience to describe and criticize such traits. Maybe this is akin to the Soviet practice of calling people with various undesirable traits “bourgeois,” but I think there is more to it and I’m just not doing a good job of articulating all of the notes that go into the full “Soviet mentality” bouquet.

Of course I had to go to Wikipedia on this, where I find that the English-language version has an entry on “colonial mentality” which tangentially reminded me of some ways I’ve heard the “Soviet mentality” term used by people in or from post-Soviet countries other than Russia.

Russian Wikipedia has no entry on “cоветский менталитет,” but there is a very interesting entry entitled “Совок (сленг). It seems to be the result of a collaborative effort by people who disagree on some things. One sentence reads as follows:

Обыкновенно «совку» приписываются такие качества, как доверчивость, неумение «ходить по трупам», желание бескорыстно помочь ближнему [2].

The footnote for that rosy observation (no doubt believed by a certain prosloika naseleniia) is to Zavtra.

Another paragraph in the entry is consistent with the more common image of people suffering from “Soviet mentality”:

Довольно распространенненный в определенных кругах образ «совка» — глупый, злой и завистливый человек, полностью лишенный самостоятельности и собственного мнения, слепо следующий партийной указке и верящий в массовую пропаганду, не успевший найти себе полагающееся место в новом обществе.

Incidentally, I don’t think an assertion of the existence of a “Soviet mentality” lingering in the hearts and minds of some has to be seen as an insult to Russians or to anyone else – it’s just that people who were raised in a system that lasted 70 years (and, it seems, on rarer occasions, younger people who were raised – in their homes, schools, and early, formative jobs – by those people) have carried over some characteristics from that period. Having spent a few years in the USSR myself during the ’80s, I used to be constantly amazed at how much Russia (well, at least Moscow and to a slightly lesser extent St. Petersburg) has changed since then – then I just got used to it. Many if not most people (especially in the big cities, I’d guess) have been just as quick to change, but not everyone.

I’m happy to translate those excerpts quoted above later if anyone wants, but at the moment I’m feeling lazy and pressed for time. Sorry, it’s not Israel (about which I know little), but this Soviet mentality topic is certainly an interesting one.

On racism during the Soviet period — it virtually did not exist. There were few black people, almost all students from Africa, and I never heard reports of any discrimination, insults, beatings — nothing. A colleague in those years — I worked at a Soviet press agency — had a Jamaican wife, and she said that people were sometimes curious — they’d never seen a black person before — but it was always polite, shy, and not the least offensive. There was a lot of intermarriage.

The racism today is a really new phenomenon.

On Soviet mentality — yeah, I think it existed/exists, in the same way I think there is American mentality or French mentality. But whenever you try to define it, you end up qualifying it to the point of absurdity, and it all turns out to be crap.

mab – you seem to suggest in your last post that racism could only apply to black people [living in Russia]. I find this problematic, but perhaps this is not what you intended to convey.

Do you have any theories on the origins of post-Soviet racism in Russia, especially in so far as you regard it as a truly new phenomenon? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.

Обыкновенно «совку» приписываются такие качества, как доверчивость, неумение «ходить по трупам», желание бескорыстно помочь ближнему

That sounds like something Aleksandr Zinoviev would have written in his post-dissident days. The first chapter or so of Русская Трагедия is quite consonant with it.

Not to be overlooked is the covering the coverage mode which critically reviews how a number of topics are covered.

Well said.

Ego scripsit:

“That sounds like something Aleksandr Zinoviev would have written in his post-dissident days. The first chapter or so of Русская Трагедия is quite consonant with it.”

Holy crap, you can download the entire text of this book here: http://www.koob.ru/zinovyev_a/russkaya_tragedia

Here’s a typical passage:

Совок

Словом «совок» сейчас называют представителей поколений, которые сформировались и прожили более или менее значительную часть жизни в советский период. Употребляя это слово, употребляющие его тем самым выражают презрение к советской эпохе и к порожденным ею людям.
Употребляют также слово «коммуняка». При этом имеют в виду совков, которые ностальгируют по советскому периоду, остаются приверженными советской (коммунистической) идеологии и не принимают результаты антикоммунистического переворота горбачевско‑ельцинских лет.
Я принадлежал к числу тех, с совкового молчаливого согласия которых был разрушен Советский Союз и советский социальный строй в России и других частях бывшего Советского Союза. До сегодняшнего дня я боялся признаться себе в этом, разделяя и выдумывая сам всяческие оправдания тому, что произошло у нас в горбачевско‑ельцинские годы. Но в институте, в котором я проработал более тридцати лет, мне сообщили, что в моих услугах в связи с его приватизацией и реорганизацией больше не нуждаются. Я знал, что это рано или поздно случится. Я ждал этот момент и вроде бы был готов к нему психологически. Но когда мне официально сообщили об этом, это прозвучало для меня подобно смертному приговору.
Безработный! Для меня как для совка за все годы жизни в Советском Союзе никогда в голову не приходила мысль даже в виде гипотезы, что я могу остаться без работы. Теперь я это слово воспринимаю как диагноз неизлечимой болезни. Болезни особого рода: социальной. Против нее нет и теперь никогда не будет лекарства.
В состоянии окаменелости, не замечая своих бывших коллег, я покинул институт. Как будто покинул целую эпоху. Неужели это произошло в реальности, а не в болезненном бреду?! Как и почему это произошло?! Кто в этом повинен?! Пройдя пешком полпути до дому, я обрел способность к логическому мышлению. Ты сам и повинен в этом. Как ты реагировал на горбачевскую перестройку? Ты приветствовал ее. Как ты реагировал на ельцинскую «революцию» в августе 1991 года? Ты приветствовал ее. Как ты реагировал на расстрел Верховного Совета в октябре 1993 года? Ты одобрил его. Вот ты и получил то, что тебе и следовало получить за свою глупость, легкомысленность, безответственность, если не сказать нечто большее о твоем поведении, – за предательство и в лучшем случае за попустительство предательству. Что посеешь, то и пожнешь!

“Do you have any theories on the origins of post-Soviet racism in Russia, especially in so far as you regard it as a truly new phenomenon?”

I’m not mab, but I have a highly simplistic, but I think nevertheless true, theory.

Mass migration combined with economic and social dislocation and an active attempt at exporting Western racialist ideas into Russia by Western extreme right organizations.

Oh, I forgot to add the disappearance of the Soviet internationalist ideology in my string o’ factors. Let us not forget the role of Russian nationalism in breaking up the USSR.

Well, his point of view is certainly clear…

I don’t have all my reference books out here at the dacha, and don’t want to respond off the top of my head. But in general, советский менталитет and совок have slightly different meanings when used by Russians. The first is more neutral and includes good and bad; the second is generally used as a perjorative and covers whatever the speaker considers to have been the bad aspects of Soviet-era behavior and attitudes. It is used a lot as a kind of damning interjection. Someone gets shuttled from official to official and screams Ну, совок! Well, I am writing off the top of my head here — Russians generally use it to describe terrible bureaucracy, laziness, incompetence, pilfering, arbitrary use and misuse of power/position, lack of responsibility for one’s job, trying to get something for nothing (хавлява), cheating the govt out of something, inconvenience, badly done work… Or it could be used to describe what someone wrote about above — painting the buildings once every 1000 years when the big guy comes from Moscow, kissing up to bureaucrats, pandering to foreigners (remember those days?. I remember doing some research on this and discovering that there was a lot of variation in how people defined it.

Pace mab’s impression of no hostility toward African students in the 1960s and 1970s, there was certainly some racism. There’s actually a researcher at the Institut stran Azii i Afriki working on this right now through a combination of newspaper and archival work. The big problem, according to him, is that the US always tried to exploit the accounts of dissatisfied students, while the Soviets always trumpeted the achievements of Soviet anti-racism. So ultimately, the work just becomes about the rhetoric of race and the Cold War and it’s hard beyond that. That said, there seems to be amazing stuff to be found both in the Soviet archives and in the US GosDep archives.

Much of the hostility faced by foreign students actually centered around the intermarriage question and the perceived threat of African men. Apparently (this is second-hand) there were interesting letters sent to Komsom. Pravda complaining about how Russian women were treated when they returned with the African husbands to lands unknown. Some of this rhetoric started as early as the 1957 Youth Festival and the banter about festivalnye thereafter (I blogged about this a couple of months ago, if anyone other than me is really interested, you can look).

On the violence question, there were a few beatings and one murder (if memory serves, in the early 1960s), but over the course of a couple of decades, that’s not too bad. Especially since around today’s RUDN those statistics seem more like a yearly, if not bi-monthly, run-down. There are also a few graduate students, from MGU I think, and one from Germany, working on foreign students in the post-Brezhnev era.

All this, just to be more specific on mab’s “virtually didn’t exist.” To support her contention, a friend who showed up at RUDN in 1990 and has lived in Moscow since, practically cries and shakes when he talks about how much Moscow has changed. But this is from some combination of racial violence, discontent with the political direction of Russia, and the outrageous prices of apartments in the city.

On a separate note, there’s also an interesting article by Apollon Borisovich Davidson on “racist anti-racism” from a few years ago, but I can’t find the citation off-hand. He discussed the problems of the underpinnings of some variants of Soviet anti-racist rhetoric (that depicted Africans and Asians as always down-trodden and in need of help).

Or allow me to re-phrase that in such a way to make sure we make it to at least 300 comments: “Fucking Russian racists. Typical.”

CM – yes, all very good ways of approaching the question and potentially understanding the problem. (Though I’m not exactly convinced about Nationalism (yes, with a capital N) contributing to the breakup, although that is obviously one of the standard interpretations). One of my favorite Steven Kotkin quips: “the Union’s demise was ‘national in form, opportunist in content.’”

Do you also believe racism is a novelty / post-Soviet phenomenon in Russia?

“Well, his point of view is certainly clear…”

Hard to believe it’s the same guy that wrote Yawning Heights and Homo Sovieticus, isn’t it? A friend of mine met him in the 80s when he was still a passionate anti-Communist. He hated Gorbachev then too, but for opposite reasons.

I was quite sad when he passed on.

“Do you also believe racism is a novelty / post-Soviet phenomenon in Russia?”

Depends what you mean by “racism.” Ethnic hatred isn’t new — it’s universal to the human species, it appears — but the paticular complex of ideas we lump under “racism” is, I think. I think “race” is a Western notion that grew up to ideologically justify the African slave trade and European colonialism, neither of which Russia participate in.

Oh, I have to tell this anecdote — about 6 years ago I was talking to a Rastafarian from Sudan, and according to him Russians were OK, not like other white people, because they had never taken Africans as slaves and so were down with Jah.

Nabovka — well, I’m not sure I do know exactly how to define racism. Here Russians make a distinction between prejudices based on nationality and prejudice based on skin color, and I guess that’s what I was thinking of.
Why prejudice against black people has appeared — excellent question and one I don’t know the answer to. I don’t think anyone has looked into that as a separate phenomenon. The African kids said that the skins usually screamed about their “taking things from Russia” — taking the women, education (actually, they paid for it), goods, etc. There had also been a case of some Nigerian kids who sold drugs; as often happens, it was a case of 4 kids who got caught and put in jail, but the accusation was that “all the Africans are selling drugs.”

I think most of this is driven by economics. Resentment of one’s poor living standards and inability to improve them, and finding the guilty party in “other”. Yes to CM’s migration and the loss of the concept of internationalism. Russian nationalism — the very confused realm of Rossiya as a place that hundreds of nationalities have inhabited for millenia vs Rossiya as the embodiment of Russian culture and religion. For various reasons I tend not to see western influence as strongly as others; I see most of what’s going on here in terms of purely Russian issues.

The Russians who are studying hate crimes usually cite poverty as one of the predictors, but there are a bunch of exceptions to this.

What’s also interesting is the changed perception of American blacks. In the Soviet period, they were perceived as noble, hard-working, honest folks oppressed by white racists. Now they watch all these shoot ‘em up films, and the teens and young people I’ve talked to think of American blacks as ghetto-dwelling hoods and criminals. It’s odd, because there are a variety of US films shown here, but only one image sticks. I wonder if that may be contributing to the racism.

Anecdotally (meaning this is only one instance that may be in no way representative of Russian society), I showed an old documentary on the song Amazing Grace at the foreign language institute. I thought it would be interesting since they didn’t know the song and had no idea of its cultural significance in the US. But what the students and professors were astonished by was American black religious experience. They — people who have been studying the US and the language for years or decades — had no idea about the role of religion in American black communities.

Thanks, Chris.

Actually, I’m not sure how you’re using racism yourself, nor am I sure how I’m using it either (honesty is the best policy, right?). If racism is a product of an African slave trade and European colonialism that Russia did not participate in – as you say, then all the other factors you mentioned earlier don’t exactly match up to produce racism as a coherently understood post-Soviet novelty.

That being said, I don’t think the idea of “race” is merely a product of overseas empire-building and slave trade. No less important is the rise of the nation-state. And we could add others…. but I, for one, don’t have the time…

While Russia wasn’t a “nation-state,” it was certainly an empire that also cultivated an evolving Russian nationhood (russkii) alongside a more universalistic identity (rossiiskii). And aspects of both this Russian nationhood/ imperial subjecthood were forged in conjunction with imperial conquests. There is a great deal that distinguishes the Russian empire from European overseas empires, but the Russian empire as empire is not completely unique either.

One of the reasons I am forever skeptical of the characteristic middle-aged intelligentsia claim that “we never had racism before” is the following: in the same breath that I am always told that there was no racism or even “ethnic strife” in Soviet times, I’m told that ‘druzhba narodov’ was a total fiction. Often times, I’m still less lucky and am fed what I would term racist rhetoric from the same folks who deny being racist.

Also, if you chart the trajectory of the Soviet approach to nationality, it’s impossible to notice that it did change despite the fact that “internationalism” and “druzhba narodov” were officially retained as fundamental ideological planks. The change: In the early Soviet times, nationality was malleable, changeable, and indeed even a matter of personal choice (If you were a Russian, but wanted to be counted as Chuvash no one could stop you). It was official ideology that “ethnic backwardness” was cultural, not biological, and therefore changeable. Later, ethnicity became fixed and unchangeable. And despite official ideological pronouncements, some nationalities came to be regarded and hounded as inherently treasonous. Meaning, that individuals were forced to account for their supposed nationality’s perceived-to-be inherent treason, deviance, and/or intractability. This represents a more biological understanding of nationality.

I’m sure I’ll be charged by other(s) here for saying something I haven’t said. Par for the course, I’m afraid.

Buster, what you write is interesting. I don’t doubt it — but I never saw it or heard about it. But it would be an interesting study, particularly as there hasn’t really been any study of the phenomenon now, as far as I know.

There is a fair bit about the plight of Russian wives in faraway places. Lots of sensationalist NTV docs on Russian wives in Egypt, Turkey, Africa and of course the US. Again, I’m not sure that Africans have been particualarly targeted.

I think, if I got it all, what Nabovka writes is the key to understanding this. That is, looking at contradictory trends at the same time. “In the same breath that I am always told that there was no racism or even “ethnic strife” in Soviet times, I’m told that ‘druzhba narodov’ was a total fiction.” I think that’s exactly it — both assertions are true.

If ya know what I mean.

MAB

Your stated claims about former Yugoslavia were certainly no victory. Knowing when one is ignorant on a subject relates to that matter.

As for your other recent claims:

The Soviet era repressed some unfortunate human feelings found elsewhere. In no way did it eliminate matters of intolerance. Tito’s Yugoslavia was the same. When both systems ended with greater freedom, the old hatreds thawed.

Western media of the 1970s reported on bigoted anti-Black acts in the USSR (a point recently brought up by someone else here). Around 1980, Time Magazine had a high profile cover feature on the USSR where the derisive cherno… was mentioned. In the Jewish community, a good number believe that post-Soviet Russia is more tolerant of Jews when compared to the Soviet era. Anatoly Scharansky for one has expressed this view. Profiling in Moscow (and other areas of Russia) of people of color is an issue as it’s very much so in areas of the US. As previously noted, besides Abner Louima, Rodney King and Yankel Rosenbaum, there’re many other such intolerant acts regularly committed in the US.

Aleks

For clarity sake, Sephardic technically refers to those Jews who were expelled from Spain during the Spanish Inquisition. Their services use (in some instances) Ladino, which is a kind of Sephardic version of Yiddish. What typically happens is that all of the non-Ashkenazi Jews are lumped as Sephardim. That’s technically incorrect.

mab -

Thanks to you, too, for engaging my questions. I mentioned here at Sean’s some time earlier that I’m completely vexed by this notion that racism in Russia is a novelty. But I’m admittedly quite flummoxed by the whole thing and am likely destined just to keep wading through various questions that I don’t have full or satisfactory answers to. I DEFINITELY think there is something post-Soviet that is specific to post-Soviet times going on in terms of the rise of Russian nationalism and racism, and a lot of what both you and Chris say does make sense to me. I’m not willing to concede, however, that racism as it manifests itself in contemporary Russia is devoid of imperial Russian or Soviet precedents or roots.

Actually what you said at the beginning of your last post, speaks to a lot of what makes the issue thorny for me. And that is specifically the distinction that is made in Russia between, as you put it “prejudices based on nationality and prejudice based on skin color.” The problem: that distinction doesn’t seem like much of a distinction to me.

Thanks again for taking the time share your thoughts.

“Actually what you said at the beginning of your last post, speaks to a lot of what makes the issue thorny for me. And that is specifically the distinction that is made in Russia between, as you put it ‘prejudices based on nationality and prejudice based on skin color.’ The problem: that distinction doesn’t seem like much of a distinction to me.”

****

During WW II, some Jews were able to save themselves by a combination of their Aryan looks and covering up their Jewish identity.

People of color stand out in most Euro nations. A “Russian looking Russian” in Warsaw doesn’t stand out like a Nigerian. If both speak fluent unaccented Polish with the “Russian looking Russian” having a name like Bogdon Sikorski (can be deemed Russian or Polish), this distinction is further evident.

What’s also interesting is the changed perception of American blacks.

It’s not just movies – I think that hip-hop and the adoption of some of its tropes by Russian rappers (and some Russian kids) has also played a role. There are definitely a lot of misperceptions and stereotypes about African-Americans in today’s Russia. And don’t forget that “Shokoladnyi Zaiats” song, although that was actually performed by a guy from Africa.

I don’t really have much else to say about racism – its sources are no doubt complicated and I think one overlooked source is just a lack of familiarity with people of other skin colors. For some people (perhaps the more secure-feeling folk of the Soviet era and people who have their feet under them in the post-Soviet era), this leads to friendly curiosity – for others (those to whom the post-Soviet fates have not been as kind), it leads to scapegoating and demonizing of the unknown “other.”

Maybe no one else is interested in the sovok/Soviet mentality topic, but I’ll take another stab at it, since I find it intriguing.

On Soviet mentality — yeah, I think it existed/exists, in the same way I think there is American mentality or French mentality.

I actually think there’s a bit of a difference. During the existence of the USSR, I agree on the similarity, but the term “Soviet mentality” as it’s been used since the early ’90s refers to people stuck in or wishing to return to an earlier era. It’s the mentality of a bygone era, perhaps one could liken it to attitudes toward the Confederacy in the American South (I just mean the combination of nostalgia and a sense of victimization in the new era, I’m not trying to make any other comparison).

mab, you’re totally right about the difference in usage between “sovetskii mentalitet” and “sovok,” and you did an awesome job of pinpointing the nuances. Maybe the comparison of “burzhui” and “sovetskii mentalitet” is too simplistic, but it seems like they were both used to describe members of society who failed to make the changes to adapt to a new era. Also, it seems to me like both terms were used by policymakers to describe obstacles (or those creating obstacles) to the reforms necessary to bring about the new order.

Also, notwithstanding the difference between “mentalitet” and “sovok,” I think one aspect of the Soviet mentality is elucidated by the Zinoviev excerpt posted by Chris – the sense of entitlement to a job. Of course, people forget that for most it tended to be a job that one didn’t have a high degree of flexibility in choosing… Then again, more broadly, I think the sense of nostalgia for full employment might be seen as consistent with a desire to have others make decisions for you and just sit back and take life as it comes (I know that I sometimes have moments where it seems it would be easier to have outside forces make major life decisions for me, so it’s not hard to understand the seductiveness).

I’m sure there have also been people who have felt nostalgic for the familiar, limited array of Soviet produkty when feeling intimidated by 26 varieties of ketchup or cheese in a hypermarket, or when having to choose from a menu in a restaurant where they actually have everything on the menu. One could stretch to see this as fitting in with the “Russian soul’s” fatalism, although mab is right that spinning this out in a theoretical way results in a lot of unsustainable, qualified, meaningless pontificating -> crap.

“are definitely a lot of misperceptions and stereotypes about African-Americans in today’s Russia.”

***

Ditto the more lily White parts of America, where Blacks are more typically seen on the screen, stage and athletic venues.

MA – I fully understand that a Nigerian visually “stands out” in the Moscow metro in the way that a Pole would not. What I was getting at was: what’s the difference between ethnic prejudice and racial prejudice?

Spike Lee’s film “Do the Right Thing” depicted a racist White who was pressed to explain why Michael Jordan isn’t the N word as opposed to the local Blacks who frequented his family’s pizzeria.

OK, I can’t resist posting a link to the “official website” of the genius behind “Shokoladnyi Zaiats,” Fabrika Zviozd season 2 alumnus Pierre Narciss.

I also highly recommend this list of contemporary political nicknames, which I encountered on Russian Wikipedia because it contains “Shokoladnyi Zaiats,” apparently a nickname for Ukrainian Petr Poroshenko. It’s all connected – I love the internet.

A couple more random thoughts about race in Russia – what do you all think about the not-uncommon practice of hiring people of African descent to stand outside of pricey restaurants in fancy uniforms? Or of hiring people of Asian appearance (even if they’re Russian-speaking Koreans from Central Asia) to be servers or chefs in sushi joints?

“nabovka on September 14, 2007 2:58 pm MA – I fully understand that a Nigerian visually ’stands out’ in the Moscow metro in the way that a Pole would not. What I was getting at was: what’s the difference between ethnic prejudice and racial prejudice?”

***

A fine line perhaps. Please clarify.

Offhand, “race” generally seems to be used to differentiate between say a Black versus a Slav, or a salv verus an Arab, whereas “ethnic” differentiates between a Croat and Serb, Russian and Pole…

In America: Russians, Poles, Albanians, Serbs and Croats can often be batched together in the same neighborhood, while living separate from Blacks.

I think this relates mab’s point about how race based prejudice is the greater issue.

I’m suddenely reminded of what differentiates Greek cuisine from Turkish and northern Italian from French.

Much like how several years ago, a Pole and Ukrainian were arguing in the supermarket about whether pierogi is Polish or Ukrainian. I had to correct them both.

Pardon misspell.

Thought just came to mind related to Russian-Israelis. For years, a local state park near me has been frequented by people of color (mostly Blacks and Latinos). In the early 19 nineties, the Brighton Beach crowd suddenly discovered the park. They’re the only White group there in any prominent numbers.

They’re by no means monolithic. In jest, one of them hassled me about my yellow, black and white tri-color car sticker with the two headed eagle in the middle of it. He had a Tyrzub sticker on his car. His friends told me that he’s a “nut” (their description) from Lviv. They invited me to their zakushka (pardon any mistranslated transliteration). We’ll got along great and have since been periodically in touch with each other.

“Actually, I’m not sure how you’re using racism yourself, nor am I sure how I’m using it either (honesty is the best policy, right?).”

I’m using the term to mean a belief system that incorporates the idea that differences (specifically, levels of “better” or “worse”) between different peoples have a biological basis, usually tied up with fixation on skin color.

“OK, I can’t resist posting a link to the “official website” of the genius behind “Shokoladnyi Zaiats,” Fabrika Zviozd season 2 alumnus Pierre Narciss.”

He was interviewed awhile ago on MuzTV and everybody got a big chuckle out of the fact that his mother’s name is “Minette.”

“A couple more random thoughts about race in Russia – what do you all think about the not-uncommon practice of hiring people of African descent to stand outside of pricey restaurants in fancy uniforms?”

Simple — they’re exotic, therefore cool. Is the African-themed (and -frequented) club Gippotom still open in Moscow I wonder?

” Or of hiring people of Asian appearance (even if they’re Russian-speaking Koreans from Central Asia) to be servers or chefs in sushi joints?”

Simple — verissimilitude.

“A couple more random thoughts about race in Russia – what do you all think about the not-uncommon practice of hiring people of African descent to stand outside of pricey restaurants in fancy uniforms? Or of hiring people of Asian appearance (even if they’re Russian-speaking Koreans from Central Asia) to be servers or chefs in sushi joints?”

***

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

An upscale US Kosher caterer I worked for in college and part of high school employed a Black to stand outside by the valet parking. You should see how he was outfitted. This establishment also hired a Japanese person to exclusively work the Wok station during the cocktail hour. He did nothing else. Made an easy $50 for one hour’s work.

Oh yeah, for years this joint only hired White men, typically 25 and older (some exceptions)on the traditional view (prejudice) that the finer eating establishments didn’t employ women, people of color and the relatively very young as floor personnel.

That has long since changed because of economics in the form of there not being so many 25 and over White men looking to do that work at the given budget crunch non-inlation adjusted salary. Like other fields, many American hotel and restaurant venues don’t pay as well as they once did. Hence, the greater utilization of women, people of color and a younger staff.

Lyndon, yes, I forgot about music and MTV. You’re right that this is a contributing factor, probably more than the movies.

Actually, I find the African guys in front of fancy restaurants appalling. I may be wrong about this, because I have a visceral reaction that is associated with the bad old days in the US — but I had the same reaction to a huge billboard on Rublyovo-Uspenskoe Shosse advertising Philipino servants. The reaction I have is that the contemporary Russian image of being rich is based on old movies and Western stereotypes in which the white folks have the black folks and the yellow folks as servants. It makes my skin crawl.

Nabovka — all I can say is Hm. You raise a number of really interesting issues.

Lyndon — yes, I think that today soviet mentality can refer to nostalgia for the good things about the old days. It can also mean “the old-fashioned Soviet way of doing something.” I was once trying to tease out the difference between manager and upravlenets, and people most people insisted that they were not synonyms, but that a manager was a western-style company executive, while an upravlenets was a Soviet-style boss. Then they described how management styles differed, with the upravlenets having a style they clearly found less acceptable. But some people disagreed and found the word upravlenets to more have the connotation of “forceful leader.” It was interesting because I think their definition corollated with their attitude towards the Soviet Union. (It would also probably depend on age.)

Another somewhat related thought to what you wrote about (the comfort of lack of choice, etc.) Someone did a survey in the 90s where they asked people about a list of goods and food, like meat, kolbasa, cheese, news shoes, cosmetics, etc. Did they have more or less pre- and post-1992? In all cases people had more post-1992. But at the same time, the vast majority said that their lives were worse post-92. So then they teased out that the more important factor was “certainty in tomorrow.” They felt less secure about the future in the post-soviet era, and that uncertainty cancelled out the greater material comfort and made them rate their lives as less pleasant. So I’d say that security was/is(?) a greater value for Russians (Soviet Russians? Soviets? oh, how complicated this whole national stuff gets… not just for Israelis) than, say, the possibility of attaining great wealth, or even some of the wealth itself.

But, to bring this back to at least the name of this thread, Reconcilable Contradictions (and I hope you noticed my reference to Israelis; I’m trying) — the value of security has its opposite value in risk-taking — the whole avos’ drive into the oncoming traffic lane on a blind curve thing. What can I say? All cultures are made up of those paradoxes and conflicting values.

Oh, I asked my acquaintance in Tel Aviv, am waiting for an answer.

“I may be wrong about this, because I have a visceral reaction that is associated with the bad old days in the US — but I had the same reaction to a huge billboard on Rublyovo-Uspenskoe Shosse advertising Philipino servants.”

****

It’s not uncommon for American modelling agencies to request “Asian looking”. Philipino servants might be requested because that group is already well implanted at that establishment and mixing others is seen as creating potential communication problems.

Oh — should clarify, MA. The billboard was for domestic servants. Someone told me that having Philipino servants was the height of chic on Rublyovka.

“don’t exactly match up to produce racism as a coherently understood post-Soviet novelty.”

I don’t think it is coherently understood. These are skinheads we’re talking about, not classical philologists!

mab

Gotcha.

We’re all products of our own experiences.

What jumps at me, doesn’t for some others and vice versa.

A better understanding is reached by communicating with others besides your own choir; and doing so with a reasonably open minded attitude.

CM interesting that you see the African guys as just exotic. And very bad pun with Minette.

“CM interesting that you see the African guys as just exotic. And very bad pun with Minette.”

The interviewer’s comment was “how on Earth were you ever born?”

I never really thought about the African doormen much. But I think in some clubs they believe having African staff (and customers) is just cool.

Not that I’ve gone to a club in ages.

Minette – now that is funny.

Actually, in case it wasn’t clear, I find the minstrel-like African doormen to be offensive as well. Chris, your comment about them being “exotic” may be true, but that just goes further to the point about general ignorance of people of color – what you’re basically saying is that these guys are such oddities in Moscow that people want to display them as one would display exotic animals or fancy sports cars. On the other hand, I guess we can’t deny people’s agency in taking such jobs.

By the way, it occurred to me that (in the earlier discussion, which perhaps I shouldn’t re-broach, but here goes) of Russian anti-Semitism, no one mentioned Vysotsky’s excellent song on this topic, Антисемиты.

In this song, as in many of his songs, Vysotsky’s narrator is someone who the author wishes to parody (though I’d call this dark parody) – here, it’s a young man with a checkered present who finds his way through an internal battle of sorts and decides to “become” an anti-Semite and “beat Jews and save Russia.” Actually, it’s so on-point (at least with respect to the earlier discussion), and its brilliance and humor so difficult to encapsulate, that I’m going to paste the whole text here (sorry for making you scroll more):

Зачем мне считаться шпаной и бандитом -
Не лучше ль податься мне в антисемиты:
На их стороне хоть и нету законов,-
Поддержка и энтузиазм миллионов.

Решил я – и, значит, кому-то быть битым,
Но надо ж узнать, кто такие семиты,-
А вдруг это очень приличные люди,
А вдруг из-за них мне чего-нибудь будет!

Но друг и учитель – алкаш в бакалее -
Сказал, что семиты – простые евреи.
Да это ж такое везение, братцы,-
Теперь я спокоен – чего мне бояться!

Я долго крепился, ведь благоговейно
Всегда относился к Альберту Эйнштейну.
Народ мне простит, но спрошу я невольно:
Куда отнести мне Абрама Линкольна?

Средь них – пострадавший от Сталина Каплер,
Средь них – уважаемый мной Чарли Чаплин,
Мой друг Рабинович и жертвы фашизма,
И даже основоположник марксизма.

Но тот же алкаш мне сказал после дельца,
Что пьют они кровь христианских младенцев;
И как-то в пивной мне ребята сказали,
Что очень давно они бога распяли!

Им кровушки надо – они по запарке
Замучили, гады, слона в зоопарке!
Украли, я знаю, они у народа
Весь хлеб урожая минувшего года!

По Курской, Казанской железной дороге
Построили дачи – живут там как боги…
На все я готов – на разбой и насилье,-
И бью я жидов – и спасаю Россию!

You can also listen to the song by using the link in the upper-left-hand corner of the page where I got the lyrics.

A scathing report on Romanian anti-Jewish sentiment:

http://www.romanianjewish.org/en/antisemitism_in_romania.html

WW II era USSR was better for Jews than WW II era Romania. Ditto a comparison of present day Russia with Romania.

Despite Ceascescu’s diplomatic relations with Israel as other Warsaw Pact countries dropped such relations, I’ve little doubt that Romania remained more anti-Jewish than the USSR.

Romania was a Axis power.

Not all Axis powers behaved like Nazis. Somewhat like how not all Allied powers were Communist.

Regarding Romanian anti-Semitism, I meant to use this link in my last post:

http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=8340380027691&lang=en-US&mkt=en-US&FORM=CVRE6

On the issue of how “race” is used, Wiki has a designation of “Racial anti-Semitism”:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_antisemitism

Plenty of non-Russian Euro samples.

I shouldn’t have used the word “powers” relative to Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Finland….. More like allies.

The song is spot-on; I’d forgotten it. Thanks for posting it.

I just had to link to this video. Actually this is a catchy song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7GMoKFVl90

Hi Chris,

I read your rather standard definition of racism and think, yeah – I can’t say that this is new to post-Soviet Russia. But we can agree to disagree. I simply don’t buy the notion that prejudice based on term 1 for social construct is all that different from prejudice based on term 1a for social construct.

Alas I use my cell phone out here at my dacha to do email and internet, and youtube is beyond my meager technical capabilities. I’ll take your word for it.

“I simply don’t buy the notion that prejudice based on term 1 for social construct is all that different from prejudice based on term 1a for social construct.”

Maybe it’s my academic background in philosophy that makes me anal with respect to terminology. I jut don’t buy that race was a category in e.g. the Middle Ages, or that it played a factor in e.g. 19th-century Russian anti-Semitism.

CM – and I’m not looking at it in terms of strict terminology (obviously), though I agree it doesn’t make much sense to equate medieval times with the 19th century. Certainly, things need to be analyzed historically. Again, though I don’t think the use of the term “natsional’nost” or “narodnost’” ensures against racism. Likewise, when contemporary France officially eschews “race” as an official category it doesn’t prevent racism in policy or in everyday social interactions.

Don’t get me wrong. I do think that there is plenty that sets apart the Russian and Soviet empires from their European counterparts. One is that the political cultures of both the Russian and Soviet empires officially celebrated the immense ethnic diversity of its subjects/citizens as a high-priority source of pride.

Still, the same 19th century that produced the Il’minskii system produced Surikov’s “The Conquest of Siberia by Yermak.”

I think I was reacting to your statement ““I simply don’t buy the notion that prejudice based on term 1 for social construct is all that different from prejudice based on term 1a for social construct.”

Similar surface phenomena reflect widly different essences, to use an old-fashioned term. Russians (Ukrainians, Romanians, Poles, whoever, to satisfy MA) persecuted Jews in the 19th century because they believed that the Jews wre in league with the Devil, that they had killed Christ, killed children to make matzah and so forth. They genuinely believed that, just as they believed in witches, as people had in France and England a few centuries earlier. The Nazis persecuted them (to put it mildly) because they believed (genuinely) that Jews are a subspecies of human being that is biologically programmed to be parasitic. The Romans persecuted Jews/Judeans (BTW, probably less than the other aforementioned groups) because they were monotheists and so refused to acknowledge the Roman pantheon. These are all very different things.

Also, notwithstanding the difference between “mentalitet” and “sovok,” I think one aspect of the Soviet mentality is elucidated by the Zinoviev excerpt posted by Chris – the sense of entitlement to a job.

Here on sleepy Sakhalin I haven’t come across anyone who thinks they are entitled to a job, but one thing that is frustratingly common amongst Russians is that when they are promoted to a position of Supervisor or Manager and expected to supervise or manage, they see themselves as having “made it” and have no intention of doing any work ever again. I’ve known at least four or five good workers who turned into complete lazy arses once they were promoted.

I jut don’t buy that race was a category in e.g. the Middle Ages, or that it played a factor in e.g. 19th-century Russian anti-Semitism.

I am sure that greater prejudices than those of religion alone were present in the Crusades, and one of them would have certainly been race.

Anti-semitism in England certainly existed in the Middle Ages, but perhaps the distinction was one of religion than one of race. I think it was Edward III who used to slap wealthy Jewish merchants in jail and have them pay for their release in order to raise some cash, and there were expulsions of Jews from England around the same time.

Aha! My contact in Tei Avin wrote me back thusly:

Hey Chris,

The dominant argument here regarding the situation with these Neo-Nazis in Israel seems to be of seeing them as “not really Jewish” Russians who got here on a technicality of the Law of Return which says: “the rights of an oleh [immigrant] under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.”

Apparently, the majority (or all I am not sure) of those arrested came here through having one grandparent who was Jewish, so there has been discussion/argument now about needing to change the Law of Return in some way that would make it either not possible for them to make Aliyah in the future, or to have a formal way of revoking it. However, I don’t see this as going anywhere, because Israel is scrounging around for as many immigrants as possible (as long as they aren’t Muslim or Palestinian), for the demographic war they see themselves as being in, and they have a hard enough time with it already…

Apparently, Arik (Eli) Bunyatov, 21, who I guess is seen as the ring-leader of the neo-nazi group arrested, stated: “My grandfather wasa half-Jewboy. I will not have children so that this trash will not be born with even a tiny [percentage] of Jewboy blood.”

Israeli Industry, Trade, and Labor Minister Eli Yishai of the Shas (Mizrahi Orthodox) Party stated: “These people are not fit to be called people. They are a cancer.” and called for their citizenship to be revoked.

The main theme here is externalizing the problem…these aren’t really Jews, and these aren’t really Israelis…there was discussion that they were connected to Format 18 and that this is a Russian problem and thishas nothing to do with the real social problems in Israel or issues with how well absorbing of immigrants goes. (there is some discussion of these internal social problematics among the typical Left and liberal media outlets, but by far not dominant or majority opinion)

Chris, regarding all of those various “genuine” beliefs you listed that led to anti-Semitism, I agree that they must have been genuinely believed by many. However, I also think they were in many cases cynically propounded and spread by people who knew better, to take property or rights from Jews, or to prevent their emergence as a political force. Just like some of today’s Russian skinheads no doubt genuinely believe that migrant laborers and Africans are a threat to Russia, but others probably just like any excuse to beat people down and/or dislike people who are different. Crackpot beliefs in and of themselves are scary, but can be combated with information and truth; what seems almost more scary than the beliefs themselves are the people who don’t actually share them but exploit them for their own advantage. Not sure whether all of that is relevant to the discussion, but I see that we are almost to 300 comments and I want to do my part.

“Chris, regarding all of those various “genuine” beliefs you listed that led to anti-Semitism, I agree that they must have been genuinely believed by many. However, I also think they were in many cases cynically propounded and spread by people who knew better, to take property or rights from Jews, or to prevent their emergence as a political force. Just like some of today’s Russian skinheads no doubt genuinely believe that migrant laborers and Africans are a threat to Russia, but others probably just like any excuse to beat people down and/or dislike people who are different. Crackpot beliefs in and of themselves are scary, but can be combated with information and truth; what seems almost more scary than the beliefs themselves are the people who don’t actually share them but exploit them for their own advantage. Not sure whether all of that is relevant to the discussion, but I see that we are almost to 300 comments and I want to do my part.”

301! 301! Here we come!

Sure, beliefs are always cynically manipulated.

However, I don’t see this as going anywhere, because Israel is scrounging around for as many immigrants as possible

I think we have some Mexicans we can send their way. Maybe they’ll convert to Judaism.

One is that the political cultures of both the Russian and Soviet empires officially celebrated the immense ethnic diversity of its subjects/citizens as a high-priority source of pride.

I’ve read that this was really just a fad of the early Soviet period, and that later post WWII Soviet Union was much more about promoting the Russian language, people, and culture over all others.

Isn’t this also a principle complaint of former Soviet Union nations – that their own national languages and identities had been suppressed under the CCCP?

My American friend immediately ejaculated, “Totally fucking Soviet.”

Eeek – that sentence can be read in more than one way .. !

Sorry for the late commentary, I am trying to catch up on posts!

… an active attempt at exporting Western racialist ideas into Russia by Western extreme right organizations.

This sounds like a good conspiracy theory that I hadn’t heard before.

I’m surprised Averko didn’t provide details and somehow tie it into western agendas in both Pridnestrovie and Kosovo.

“Similar surface phenomena reflect widly different essences, to use an old-fashioned term. Russians (Ukrainians, Romanians, Poles, whoever, to satisfy MA) persecuted Jews in the 19th century because they believed that the Jews wre in league with the Devil, that they had killed Christ, killed children to make matzah and so forth.”

****

Anti-Jewish sentiment wasn’t invented or perfected in Russia.

Among others, Canadian-Ukrainian historian Orest Subtelny noted that loyal Jewish subjects of Poland in Ukraine had positions (like tax collectors) and sympathies (with the Polish occupier) that added to the friction. Subtelny added that in historical terms, many Ukrainians have viewed Ukraine’s Jews as being either loyal to Poland or Russia. Of course, this point in no way excuses what happened in 1648, late 1800s, 1917-21 and WW II.

———————————————-

“‘. an active attempt at exporting Western racialist ideas into Russia by Western extreme right organizations.’

This sounds like a good conspiracy theory that I hadn’t heard before.

I’m surprised Averko didn’t provide details and somehow tie it into western agendas in both Pridnestrovie and Kosovo.”

****

Did someone hack into your mind Shedd?

The great Ron Paul has been accused of having an overly conspiratorial persona and a certain editor claims I’m paranoid (never mind his faults which get carte blanche). One can be simultaneously paranoid and correct.

Let’s address some of these points you mention.

Someone here recently used the term “Russian anti-Semitism” for the Soviet period. Why not term a Moldovan, Lithuanian or Ukrainian anti-Semitism? Elsewhere, that same person spoke of an independent Pridnestrovie becoming a “Russian puppet state”. Likewise with a reunited former Moldavian SSR (Moldova and Pridnestrovie) being a “Russian puppet state” if it joined the hypothetically proposed Common (or Joint) Economic Sphere involving Russia and some other former Soviet republics. On the other hand, this person glowingly speaks of a reunited Moldavian SSR as part of the EU. This same person has made a big issue out of Pridnestrovie utilizing the not so popularly used (on that territory) Latin script for the Moldovan language. said person is noticeably mute on attempts in Moldova to suppress Russian language use. Said person doesn’t laud Moldova for respecting language and minority rights much better than what’s evident in Latvia and Estonia.

On Kosovo, the West is hypocritically decadent. Iraq and Turkey don’t lose Kurdistan for the harsh treatment those two gave the Kurds. Much worse than what the Serbs could ever be legitimately accused of doing to the Albanians. The latter instance which wasn’t such a one way street. Minus Kosovo, present day Serbia is more democratic and tolerant than what one finds in Turkey, Iraq and Kosovo. Unlike the Albanians, the Kurds lack lobbying clout. Unlike the Turks, the Serbs aren’t NATO members. Factors which relate to the gross hypocrisy.

CORRECTION

From last post:

“Said person doesn’t laud Moldova for respecting language and minority rights much better than what’s evident in Latvia and Estonia.”

Meant to read as:

Said person doesn’t laud Pridnestrovie for respecting language and minority rights much better than what’s evident in Latvia and Estonia.

****

Let me add that the referred to individual has clearly shown an under-appreciative concern for legitimate Russocentric interests, while joining the Eng. lang. mass media slant against them.

All this as the Russian government wines and dines some of those responsible for this negative propaganda campaign.

Some further commentary on the Western based madness pertaining to former Yugoslavia:

http://antiwar.com/malic/

Bravo Russia!

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070914/78814548.html

Transnistria, the artificial name for “the Romanian Auschwitz”
http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/node/642

Some more “Russian anti-Semitism”.

“This sounds like a good conspiracy theory that I hadn’t heard before.”

You haven’t heard about all the contacts David Duke etc. were building up in Russia in the 1990s? I mean, why do you think so much of that neo-Nazi graffiti is in English?

“Isn’t this also a principle complaint of former Soviet Union nations – that their own national languages and identities had been suppressed under the CCCP?”

Yes. I’m not sure how true it is though. I think part (note the word “part”)of it may be local nationalist myth-making. A dozen feature films used to get made a year in Latvian. How many films are shot in Latvian today? There was also state support for newspapers in Chukcha and so on that vanished after the Soviet collapse.

“Anti-semitism in England certainly existed in the Middle Ages, but perhaps the distinction was one of religion than one of race.”

That was in part my point. Jewish were hated not because people believed they were somehow biologically other (a strange concept for a medieval person) but because they believed they had killed Christ, practiced ritual killing, etc. That’s anti-Semitic, but it’s not racist. It’s a product of religious belief. The same goes for 19th-century Russian anti-Semitism. Like I said, it was basically a medieval country. The only medieval great power left.

“Isn’t this also a principle complaint of former Soviet Union nations – that their own national languages and identities had been suppressed under the CCCP?”

****

The Belarusian language was promoted by the Soviets as were other non-Russian tongues.

The Armenian SSR coat of arms was in the Armenian language.

In the late 19 twenties/early thirties, there was a linguistic Ukrainization on land where Russian was the preferred language.

A famous Soviet propaganda poster featured all USSR national groups in their respective traditional outfit. The lone exception was the depicted Rusisan, who wore a Western business suit.

So much for the bullshit.

Larry Josephson of NY radio WBAI (Pacifica Foundation affiliate) and WNYC (NPR affiliate) notoriety will be doing some kind of a documentary on anti-Semitism in America.

Peter Stuyvesant called Jews an “evil race” and sought restrictions on them. General Grant did what Kutuzov and Suvorov didn’t (at least to my knowledge) didn’t do.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/2007/09/15/2007-09-15_radio_series_offers_6hour_history_of_jew-1.html

Hopefully, Joe Lieberman won’t be the first, or second, or third or… Jewish VP or P.

“One is that the political cultures of both the Russian and Soviet empires officially celebrated the immense ethnic diversity of its subjects/citizens as a high-priority source of pride. I’ve read that this was really just a fad of the early Soviet period, and that later post WWII Soviet Union was much more about promoting the Russian language, people, and culture over all others. Isn’t this also a principle complaint of former Soviet Union nations – that their own national languages and identities had been suppressed under the CCCP?”
In the porcelain museum in St Pete there is a magnificent set of figurines of “all the peoples of the Russian Empire” done at the end of the 19th century. But I don’t think this was to celebrate ethnic diversity in the modern sense, but rather to show that the great Russian Orthodox Empire now had dominion over all these nations and ethnic groups. The Orthodox Church does not go in for missionary work as much as the Catholic and Protestant Churches (some of them), and in fact the big complaint in the US is that the Orthodox priests actively discourage converts. But as someone pointed out (Buster?) the Ilimsky system was intended to convert the ethnic groups in the east and north; they were now part of the Empire, and therefore had to brought into the Empire’s faith.
To repeat myself in slightly different form, I think there have always been contradictory impulses, and that in different periods different principles were the dominant ones. In places like Kazakhstan people say that, yes, there were folk ensembles and movies “on national themes” and intermarriage and newspapers in the Kazakh language. But that this was mitigated, and many believe totally overwhelmed, by the policy of Russification, particularly of in language policy. They only spoke Kazakh at home and the only way to get ahead was by being fluent in Russian and downplaying one’s national identity. They are resentful that their language became a “kitchen language” and didn’t develop (and are now struggling to invent words for computer technology etc.) And the last time I was there (about 18 months ago), the doctors I was with were all terrified to come to Moscow. One older man — a full professor, three PhD’s, high position in the Ministry of Health – described being stopped 15 times a day by the cops and was particularly insulted that they all used “ty” with him and were crude. He said that it would have been one thing if he’d been poorly dressed – then he could see how he might be “profiled” as an illegal. But that the profiling was purely ethnic. And don’t get me started on the problems Buryats have in Moscow…
CM: I didn’t know you meant David Duke and their ilk in your comment. I don’t know – my guess is that this might have influenced the ideological boys, or rather given them more ammunition, but I don’t think it plays such a big role with the teenagers. The question raised here about “race” vs “other” is interesting, and I’ll poke around to see if anyone has studied it. My sense is that you won’t find too much cogent ideology among the skins. And I also don’t give too much credence to influence from the west. These kids don’t really read English. They aren’t sitting at night on internet and translating. They’re just looking for images.

“A famous Soviet propaganda poster featured all USSR national groups in their respective traditional outfit. The lone exception was the depicted Rusisan, who wore a Western business suit.”

Well, yes, MA, it was a propaganda poster and the message was: the Russian in the business suit was the modern “unmarked” citizen, and all you other guys are quaint, backward ethnic groups. You’re “marked” as different.

In Pridnestrovie they are switching to the Cyrillic alphabet for Moldovan, not Latin.
And you ought to actually go to Moldova and Pridnestrovie…spend some time there. Speak Russian and Moldovan. See what happens.

So much for the bullshit.

For six.five hours, this was the last word for the thread. I was really hoping it would end there for good, since it was almost like MA had come to his senses and the entire thread shut down.

But I see the interesting parts of the thread continue, in addition to random sputtering about Joe Lieberman and Peter Stuyvesant.

Mab, as usual, I’m with you on your reading of the continuities of Russian imperial and Soviet policies (though, there were also, obviously, contrasts as well). I think because for so long Western, especially American, academics bolstered the “prison-house of nations” interpretation, the 1990s and early 2000s witnessed an important corrective, especially in light of how the USSR broke up into nice administrative units.

On skinhead ideology and pracitce, I recently read the review for a new academic/ethnographic study, though I haven’t read the book yet. Review at: http://scepsis.ru/library/id_1431.html

And to CM and Mab: I have this suspicion that some of the English language graffiti isn’t just a product of Western racists influence. First, I’m always surprised by how much of the grafitti in Moscow in general is in English. It was that way when I was here in 1997 and again now. Second, I have this odd impression that some of the racist stuff actually comes out of an inversion of Soviet anti-racist propaganda and went hand-in-hand with a lot of the rejection of all things Soviet (including that particular brand of internationalism and (asymmetrical) fraternalism). See, for instance, the re-working of the iconic stature of Angela Davis in popular films and music…

Or it’s all just a muddle. Russian kids say: “Americans are dumb. They don’t have any culture. All they do is eat hamburgers and make stupid action films. Their music is crap. And they are all money-grubbing assholes.” But at the same time they only watch American action movies, listen to American music, and are totally influenced by American pop culture. Maybe we are dumb academic blow hards to be struggling to see continuity and change from Russian Empire through the Soviet period etc. Or influence of David Duke etc. Maybe we are all over-intellectualizing just a tad here…

“Maybe we are dumb academic blow hards to be struggling to see continuity and change from Russian Empire through the Soviet period etc. Or influence of David Duke etc. Maybe we are all over-intellectualizing just a tad here…”

I think these kids would probably be beating the crap out of people even without any Nazi ideology thrown into the mix. These are pissed-off disgruntled young men. If they were in an American inner city, they would be in a street gang. If they lived in the Middle East, they would become terrorists. If they lived in Congo, they would join some warlord’s warband. If they lived in Chechnya, they would become kadyrovtsy today, or boeviki a few years ago. The ideology is an afterthought.

“And to CM and Mab: I have this suspicion that some of the English language graffiti isn’t just a product of Western racists influence. First, I’m always surprised by how much of the grafitti in Moscow in general is in English.”

Seen by me in 2001 near Teplyu Stan. It was huge, in English, across the side of a wall:

ANGLO-SAXON, DON’T LET THE SUN SET ON YOU HERE!

It may have been a joke I suppose.

I remember a lot of alarmist reports in the 1990s about Western far-right groups making inroads into Russia. But then that was part of a larger bullshit PR campaign that everybody who was against Yeltsin was part of the Red-Brown Menace that was going to take power if he didn’t get reelected, so it may have been exaggarated.

In a banal sense, it is incontrovertible that the Nazi ideology and skinheads are Western imports, given that Nazism is of Germano-Austrian origin and skinheads started in Britain.

In a banal sense, it is incontrovertible that the Nazi ideology and skinheads are Western imports, given that Nazism is of Germano-Austrian origin and skinheads started in Britain.

However, as a strain of occidentalism, it is most decidedly NOT solely a Western invention. You could make a solid argument that the Slavophile movement developed the form of occidentalism that was inherited by the Nazi ideology. Of course, Slavophile philosophy was influenced by post-industrial western reactions and philosophy.

In this sense, it (Nazism, Slavophilism, occidentalism) are a reaction against the perceived dehumanization of the Industrial Revolution.

In fact, others have already made that argument

http://books.google.com/books?id=neGf2O1AZukC&dq=&pg=PP1&ots=IlU3tbHtdz&sig=hVfS3eAKPqRmn3iK5iepmwlWcPk&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fq%3Doccidentalism%26sourceid%3Dnavclient-ff%26ie%3DUTF-8%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_enUS177US231&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title

MAB

On the matter of encouraging conversions: another way of looking at it is that the ROC is less imperialistic than the Vatican and some Protestant churches. I know for a fact that many ROC are converts, inclusive of those with a Jewish background. The principle of this site is a convert: http://www.rusjournal.com. I understand that George Stephanopoulous’ older sister is ROCOR because she finds that OC to be more earnest than others. Her father is or was (not sure if he’s still alive) is a prominent GOC priest.

A National Review article on Zhirinovsky several years ago said that Zhirik’s ideas were shaped from his having experienced reverse discrimination policies against Slavs in Kazakhstan. At one time in the US (this is now being stopped), having Latino on a college or job application raised one’s chances of getting into a good number of jobs and schools. My very bright and politically left of Latino friends acknowledged this to me. Years ago, my momz suggested I call myself Latino on such applications in lieu of my half Sephardic background.

I suspect that many Russians aren’t aware of David Duke’s background. It’s quite easy to be fooled. Especially if a given person is saying a number of plausible points in an environment where idiocy is often rewarded. Lyndon Larouche’s Executive Intelligence Review relates to this phenomena.

Your take on that mentioned Soviet propaganda poster is predictable as I’ve a good idea of where you’re intellectually coming from. My initial take on it is that contrary to Russia hating propaganda, Russian identity was very much suppressed relative to what other groups making up the USSR faced. The post-Soviet aftereffect shows feeble Russian efforts at replying to the Russia hating crowd. Russophobic is a bogus term since that labeled crowd generally don’t fear Russia as much as they hate it. Later with this: well Russia has done a good deal to deserve this. Use that same rational in hating others and it’s called bigotry. Russians have legitimate gripes.

As per your former Moldavian SSR comments, in addition to being well read on the subject, I know enough people who have been to Moldova and Pridnestrovie to know what’s going on in that area. Pridnestrovie’s ethnic Moldovan population overwhelmingly prefer the Cyrillic Moldovan script and Russian language over the Latin Moldovan/Romanian script. Pridnestrovie’s ethnic Moldovan population overwhelmingly prefer the Tiraspol government over the one in Chisinau. Anyone thinking different is either misinformed or untruthful. On another point of yours: there’re a number of well traveled/multi-lingual propagandists.

Buster:

Show some maturity. I don’t find some of your comments to be of any interest.

Regarding the former Moldavian SSR, this article by Chad Nagle agrees with my take and that of others:

http://antiwar.com/nagle/n031601.html

Not so long ago, Sergei Markedonov expressed similar views in a RIAN article which was picked up by Russia Profile.

On MAB’s Kazakstan’s comments, Charles William Maynes and Edward Limonov have commented on discriminatory policies against Slavs in Kazakstan.

On the other hand, others tell me that these policies have declined in more recent times.

A famous Soviet propaganda poster featured all USSR national groups in their respective traditional outfit. The lone exception was the depicted Rusisan, who wore a Western business suit.

Sounds to me like a poster orientalizing the colonized people, putting them in peasant “ethnic” dress, and presenting the Russian as professional, civilized and modern. But I guess it’s all a matter of interpretation, and to be fair I’ve seen Soviet-era books of various peoples in national costume which include Russians dolled up peasant-style. Of course, the Russians are often dancing in the center of the circle or have pride of place in some other way.

For example (though I guess I shouldn’t make too much of this), I have a beautifully illustrated book from 1957, Kostiumy k Tantsam Narodov SSSR, in which pictures of dancing Russian couples occupy the first two pages; most of the other narody (only the titular republican peoples are included) get just one page each (the other ones who get two are the Armenians and several of the Central Asian peoples). I’m not saying this is surprising or tremendously meaningful, just that it refutes the idea that Russian culture was somehow lost or subsumed by the other national identities during the Soviet experiment.

Mike, you seemed to be set off by my use of the phrase “Russian anti-Semitism” (I suppose you would have preferred “Soviet anti-Semitism”) in introducing a song by Vysotsky. Here’s the thing – Vysotsky was a Russian, singing in Russian about Russians, so although the song happened to be written during the Soviet era, I still think “Russian” is the appropriate descriptor. I’m sure that economically challenged, misguided youth in other parts of the USSR and in other countries came to anti-Semitism in ways similar to what is depicted in the song, so it has some universal application, but I don’t think it was wrong to say that the primary topic covered by the song is Russian anti-Semitism.

Oh, and regarding your comments about Pridnestrov’e/Transnistria/the PMR/Transdniester/whatever you want to call it, since you and I have already been around the block plenty of times on the topic, I hope you understand why I’d rather not wade back into the finer points of the debate with you. Sticking with the musical theme, and with all due respect to your determination and persistence in putting forth your points of view and condemning those who disagree with them, I think I’ve found a classic ballad that captures your level of devotion to Pridnestrov’e fairly well. I imagine you crooning it soulfully as you ponder the PMR, that promised land to which you’ve never been but about which you have so much to say.

Incidentally, since you mentioned the Executive Intelligence Review, it may be of interest to some here that the LaRouchies’ “EIR News Service” recently translated Stanislav Menshikov’s 2004 book The Anatomy of Russian Capitalism. It looks pretty interesting, though I haven’t really made it past the table of contents.

Lyndon;

Soviet anti-Semitism was inclusive of non-Russians and you’ve been silent about Romanian/Moldovan anti-Semitism.

Try challenging my actual commentary instead of making comments that don’t challenge them.

Among others, Chad Nagle and Sergei Markedonov share my core views on the former Moldavian SSR.

The EIR gets around. Their personnel often appear during the Q & A sessions at CSPAN televised panel discussions.

Chad Nagle’s spot on former Moldavian SSR article:

http://antiwar.com/nagle/n031601.html

Sergei Markedonov’s recent RIAN article that was picked up by Russia Profile expresses the same view.

CM, I agree that a lot of the skins are exactly as you describe — and the ideology is dressing. But I think the ideology can take over. I mean, if they are angry young men bursting with adolescent hormonal fury, they could be, say, throwing bricks at the local mayor’s offices for not providing cheaper housing. Or for not having a job program. Or for not having free education. Or throwing bricks through the Lamborghini showroom at the Barvikha Luxury Village (in which case I’d happily join them). But they’ve focussed their ire — or been manipulated into focussing their ire — on the “other.” Buster put up a link to what sounds like an interesting, tho imperfect book on the subject — I’d like to read it. Maybe that will sort out some of concepts/ideas in this thread-that-will-not-die.

MA: I don’t argue that the CIS countries had ideal Russian ethnic and Russian language policies. In Kazakhstan most of the Russians fled at first, and then the gov’t realized that this was a mistake. Now I gather it is better on the day-to-day level, but politically Russians are — and this will make you scream — far less integrated into the political life than in Estonia.

Sigh. I’ve spent time in Moldova, you won’t convince me. Did some people get used to Cyrillic Moldovan during the Soviet period? Could be. But it’s one thing to take a language that had never been written and use Cyrillic and another to take a language that had always been written in the Latin alphabet and convert it to Cyrillic.

Nor will you ever convince me that Russians had it bad as an ethnic group in the USSR. I have more sympathy with the notion that white American males have had it bad. (I was going to say that you have been taught to suppress your emotions, poor lambs, but this list puts lie to that assertion…)

And I have absolutely no idea what you mean about my take on the poster, but I gather it means you think I’m wrong, wrong, wrong.

Mike, I’ve been silent about German anti-Semitism, too – perhaps because this blog is principally about Russia. Just because I mention phenomenon X in Russia doesn’t mean I’m denying its existence in other countries.

As you well know, I’ve addressed the substance of your writings before – mostly at this blog, but elsewhere also – it’s a road to nowhere. More precisely, it’s often a road to hundreds of back and forth comments, but the outcome is always the same – you are more knowledgeable and correct than anyone else involved in the discussion, and anyone who persists in disagreeing with you is fundamentally wrong (or laboring under the weight of those pesky biases, misperceptions, and propaganda, which you see yourself as fighting to dispel) and possibly evil or involved in the “Eng. lang. mASS media” conspiracy to keep Mike Averko and Russia down. While it can be entertaining at times, on the whole it just isn’t worth the effort.

MAB

You misunderstood what I clearly stated. Pridnestrovie’s ethnic Moldovan population overwhelmingly prefer the Cyrillic Moldovan script and Russian language over the Latin Romanian/Moldovan script. This point shouldn’t be confused with Moldova’s ethnic Moldovan population.

Using the same standards that some non-Russian former Soviets apply to themselves, Russian identity was definitely suppressed during the Soviet period.

The coverage of anti-Semitism is politicized at times. As per a posted State. Dept. post at this thread, do you really think that Russia and Belarus are more anti-Jewish than Moldova, Ukraine and Lithuania?

All

Over he course of the USSR’s existence, it would be interesting to chart the CPSU membership over the years in terms of an ethnic breakdown, relative to the % of each groups’ % of the population. As an example: Latvians comprised _% of the CPSU and were _% of the Soviet population.

Pardon misspell of he instead of the.

“Eng.lang.mASS”

Isn’t that one of the members of the Black-Eyed Peas?

Killa Bees on ya back, court appointed not so Russia friendlies. Eng.lang.mASS is dirty and stinkin’ and he’s in the house and he’s gonna take ya to school with his wicked rhymez. Old School, Russia Pundit Style. Represent to all the peeps in Adelphi. Eng.lang.mASS forever. Out.

When challenged, Herr Doss would flop in a live uncensored panel discussion. He’s not the only one.

Same day news:

In basketball, Russia beats Spain in Spain to win the Euro title (my titled spin)http://www.russiatoday.ru/sports/news/14247

In volleyball, Spain beats Russia in Russia to win the Euro title (my titled spin) http://www.russiatoday.ru/sports/news/14243

The Russian national basketball team story involves its Israeli-American coach and African-American player.

Sean

Your filter shares your biases. It seems to reject antiwar.com links. I wanted to link Chad Nagle’s article on the former Moldavian SSR. Those submissions didn’t make the cut.

MAB

The same national (or ethnic) grouping can have different geo-political and cultural leanings. The latter mentioned includes language related points. Ukrainians in Eastern versus Western Ukraine is one notable example. Moldovans in Pridnestrovie versus Moldova is another.

Linjk to Russian basketabll victory didn’t pick up:

http://www.russiatoday.ru/sports/news/14247

Pardon misspells.

Post Cold War sports in Serbia and Russia (two countries of personal interest)sees a shift. In basketball, Serbia has taken a hit while improving in tennis. In ice hockey, Russia has taken a hit with improvements in other sports. In Yugo times, the best Yugoslav basketball players in that country tended to come from Serbia. In Soviet times, the best Soviet ice hockey players in that country tended to come from Russia.

I should’ve mentioned that the recent sports stories involve men’s sports since the ladies play the same games at the Olympics and Euros.

Perhaps Buster will like this digression over the earlier Peter Stuyvesant one.

Apologies to Russian ladies:

http://en.rian.ru/sports/20070916/78944979.html

Well done!

“Herr Doss would flop in a live uncensored panel discussion. ”

Against Eng.lang.mASS’s skillz? Who wouldn’t? Eng.lang.mASS is the master of rhyme.

“Sean

Your filter shares your biases. It seems to reject antiwar.com links. ”

It’s a Jewish plot.

Lavelle’s pal Ethan Burger already flunked at trying to tag me with that.

This doesn’t stop Lavelle’s poodle from re-trying.

Eng.lang.mASS is going to sue you for using his name without permission. It’s copyrighted. Haven’t you heard of intellectual property law?

It’s “Eng.lang.mASS” because he’s an ENGlish LANGuage MASter of rhyme, with the all-caps ASS thrown in cuz he likes big booties. See, it all fits together seamlessly, like a well-sewn garment.

What can I say other than make my day.

Some more fact based commentary on the alphabet situation in Pridnestroive:

http://transdniestria.co.uk/2007/moldovan-language-schools-in-transdniestria.html

****

Most Moldovans in Moldova are willing to recognize an independent Pridnestrovie:

http://transdniestria.co.uk/2007/independence-for-transdniestria-is-ok-for-68-of-moldovans.html

Who cares what script they use?

A propos of nothing, has anybody seen that nifty Zdob Si Zdub video using all the old footage of Happy Soviet Moldova? I don’t recollect the song offhand, but I think it’s off the (bitchin’) Agroromantica album.

They are like unto Gods, are Zdob Si Zdub. Perhaps Eng.lang.mASS should consider cutting an album with them.

You know, it occurs to me that for all the discussions about who should use what little squiggly marks as their alphabet, what event hundreds of years ago supposedly means for Transdniestrian independence, who is nicer to gay people and who has the more humane poultry farms and the better golf courses and wet T-shirt contests, I have yet to see what looks like an impartial economic or other analysis regarding whether or not people in Trandniester and Moldova would be better off with the former as an independent country, part of Russia, or part of Moldova, or if there is perhaps a conflict between what is better for people in Transdniester and Moldova*. Isn’t that what matters?

*I suppose in this case I would have to side with Moldova over Transdniester due to simple utilitarian calculus, there being more Moldovans than Transdniestrians.

Talk to Lyndon about that script’s popularity in Pridnestrovie.

As for judging who is in the right when using the above stated gauge: there’re more Russians than Poles, Latvians and Estonians combined. Russia in a default judgment. Pridnestrovie and Moldova have had different histories. Slavs are the majority in Pridnestrovie. Prid’s Ukrainians are like the deepest Blue of Ukrainians in Ukraine. Prid’s Moldovans have a different outlook from their ethnic brethren in Moldova. Among others, Pankratov, Nagle and Markedonov concur.

There’s no legitimate denying that Pridnestrovie is economically better off than Moldova. Since the Soviet breakup, Moldova has become the dirtiest economic toilet of Europe (it’s statistically considered worse off than Albania, which is the pits). Moldova did much better when its economy was merged with Pridnestrovie and Mother Russia. This is why a number of Moldova’s Moldovans favor the hypothetically propose Common or Joint Economic Sphere involving Russia and some other former USSR republics.

Perhaps the next Valdai Discussion Group can feature a panel with Lyndon, Lucas, “Jigs” (or whatever the **** his/her name is), Cooper, Grant and yours truly.

What if anything says Aleksandr Chubaran of RAS/RAN, who is quoted in the 9/18 History segement of QT (net edited version being pist 2846 at: http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@799.ETzLdpdPPus@.77480649/8164 ).

Some good private feedback on that and other segments.

On the matter of accuracy and what to believe: how accurate is Petro’s claim on Russia’s middle class being better off than America’s? (refer to the Providence Journal article in the Perception segment of the 9/18 QT)

That’s Chubaryan (pardon misspell).

And post 2847.

Phase one of the Reverse Holbrooke? (Pridnestrovie and not Kosovo is the “special case” for independence)
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2973548.ece

Oh, I know I’m going to regret this, but… CM, there are actually a lot of analyses of the question you raise, and Moldova has been jumping like a pea on a hot skillet from the EU to Russia (poetic hyperbole) as it tries to figure out what would be economically better for it. MA is rather ingenuous in his statements about the economy in Transdniester and Moldova. The thing is that the boys grabbed the good bit; all the industrial base is in Transdniester, and all that Moldova got left with was the agricultural part. They do have excellent wine, which you wouldn’t know by Onishchenko or by the stuff that was usually sold in Russia, but marketing it to the world is not so easy. But there is no question that Moldova would be better off reunited.
And of course I don’t buy that the Moldovans in Transdneister are “different” than the Moldovans in Moldova. Or that they perceive themselves to be “better off.” When I was there I met dozens of people who had three passports — Moldovan, Transdniester and Russian. They lived in Tiraspol, came to work in Chisinau and haunted the Russian consulate trying to get to Moscow.
And more importantly, who said anything about wet T-shirt contests? Размечтался…

“And more importantly, who said anything about wet T-shirt contests? Размечтался…”

They should have been mentioned, dammit!

I know very little about Moldova. I just see a lot of these Transdniester-themed blog arguments circling around what seem to me to be silly issues, like who founded Tiraspol, and a sort of “I like Russia, so Transdnister should be independent” vs. “no, Europe is the best, Transdniester should be part of Europe so Moldova can maybe join the EU” national identity politics, as it were.

“And of course I don’t buy that the Moldovans in Transdneister are “different” than the Moldovans in Moldova.”

****

Like comparing Galician Ukrainians with the ones in Donbas. If anything the differences are greater in the former Moldavian SSR example.

———————————————-

“I know very little about Moldova. I just see a lot of these Transdniester-themed blog arguments circling around what seem to me to be silly issues, like who founded Tiraspol, and a sort of ‘I like Russia, so Transdnister should be independent’ vs. ‘no, Europe is the best, Transdniester should be part of Europe so Moldova can maybe join the EU’ national identity politics, as it were.”

***

“Silly” is in the eyes of the beholder. Pridnestrovie definitely looks to be closer with Russia. Moldova is less inclined with that desire. This is what the war of the last decade in that former Soviet created entity was largely about.

MAB:

This isn’t Russian government manufactured propaganda but reality:

http://tiraspoltimes.com/news/majority_of_moldovans_willing_to_accept_transnistrias_independence.html

The Moldovans in Moldova and a good number of Romanians in Romania see Pridnestrovie as a different entity. History supports this view. Pridnestroive was a part of ancient Russia (Kievan Rus), the Russian Empire and the USSR prior to 1940.

Reunification can only work in a loose confederation arrangement with Prid. essentially governing its own affairs. Moldova shot down that idea.

You think the EU is going to take in Europe’s poorest country (Moldova) anytime soon? Chisinau shouldn’t be calling the shots. It was welcomed into a Russcoentrically directed confederation arrangement.

Pardon misspell.

On the other hand, Serbia refuses to yield Kosovo because that land is historically very akin to Serbia:

http://www.russiatoday.ru/guests/detail/426

Good for them.

When Will Russia Apply the “Reverse Holbrooke”?
http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/when_will_russia_apply_the_reverse_holbrooke.html

“You think the EU is going to take in Europe’s poorest country (Moldova) anytime soon?”

I don’t know if this was a rhetorical “you,” but actually I think that EU expansion is over. Actually, it has already overexpanded, in my opinion.

“It was welcomed into a Russcoentrically directed confederation arrangement.”

Well, uh, gee, maybe Moldovans don’t want to be part of a Russocentrically directed confederation arrangement, whatever that might be.

And I know this has been discussed endlessly on this blog, but… talking about “historical borders” in that part of the world is ridiculous, since they’ve changed so often.

Yeah, CM, now there is more talk in Moldova about what makes the most economic sense for the country. It is a strange little country. Its President is a communist ethnic Russian, it has pretentions of joining the EU (my friend who has been living there for 2 years always responds to that: In your dreams…), but ocassionally makes nice with Russia. It’s stopped flirting with Romania, although the dream of nearly every educated Moldovan is to move to Bucharest. A huge proportion of the country goes abroad to work: men as workers, women (who would win your wet T-shirt contest) into white slavery. But the wine is heavenly and cheap, and if you want a break from Moscow, head down to their October wine fest.

“But the wine is heavenly and cheap, and if you want a break from Moscow, head down to their October wine fest.”

I actually don’t like wine. I’m a bad Roman.

Moldova is a place I’d like to visit. And they speak Latin there! Well, sorta.

There used to be huge groups of Moldovan, I suppose, gastarbeitery lined up outside the Moldovan embassy in Moscow. I used to pass them all the time. I don’t think I’ve ever actually met a Moldovan… I’ve met people _from_ Moldova, but they were all Russians. Come to think of it however I think some of the kitchen staff in the cafeteria where I work are from there.

“A huge proportion of the country goes abroad to work: men as workers, women (who would win your wet T-shirt contest) into white slavery”

How much of this white slavery is really slavery per se, and how much of it is voluntary prostition? I would think that the dangers involved in this kind of thing in 2007 are so well-publicized that any young woman with a brain would realize what she might be getting into answering a “work as a nanny in Germany, no experience necessary” ad. Perhaps I am being naive in a different way.

Bingo on the EU point (previously stated elsewhere), which is why Russia is in the driver’s seat:

http://www.eurasianhome.org/xml/t/expert.xml?lang=en&nic=expert&pid=1173

Ditto Kosovo, where the non-independence side is gaining on the international front.

Kosovo is very much linked to Serbia, much like how Pridnestrovie feels towards Russia and the Russocentric elements in Ukraine. The two Natias (Vitrenko and Narochnitskaya) are big hits in Pridnestrovie.

MAB, in overall terms (historical and otherwise), Pridnestrovie is with Russia and the Russocentric elements in Ukraine. Prid’s ethnic Moldovan population included. There’re no great ethnic tensions in Pridnestrovie. Language rights are much more respected there when compared to Estonia and Latvia. All this is very obvious. It will become even more so. You’ll see.

In their own way, Socor and Lucas agree:

http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/is_there_a_moscow_brokered_deal_for_moldova_and_pridnestrovie.html

maybe Moldovans don’t want to be part of a Russocentrically directed confederation arrangement, whatever that might be.

Warsaw pact.

I would think that the dangers involved in this kind of thing in 2007 are so well-publicized that any young woman with a brain would realize what she might be getting into answering a “work as a nanny in Germany, no experience necessary” ad. Perhaps I am being naive in a different way.

Probably both situations are true – those who voluntarily work as sex workers and those who are part of the white-slave trade. I’ve always been surprised at how many young women in Central and Eastern Europe are willing to believe the people they are dealing with, as an au paire or nanny, are 100% legitimate. They don’t even bother with minimal research in that regard, become duped into terrible situations.

Then there’re these gross distortions:

http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/frozen-conflicts-transnistria

Russian speakers in Moldova have faced problems as Owen noted at SRB.

Moldova hasn’t offered broad autonomy for Prid. Rather, Moldova rejected a confederation arrangement on that premise.

The arms smuggling claim on Prid. has long been proven false by Western observers, inclusive of EU and UN officials. Moldova on the other hand can and has been accused of circumspect arms smuggling.

Other religions freely operate in Pridnestrovie and there’s a functioning democracy that includes pro-merger with Moldova forces. They’re small because they’re the minority view in Pridnestrovie.

In short, the above referenced link is misinformative propaganda.

“sex workers”

Oh how I loathe that word. They’re prostitutes, dammit.

When I was working at an orphanage ages ago in Kaluga Oblast the males among us were told to be very careful in physical contact with girls who had been sexually abused, because they would interpret it inappropriate ways. We were also told that such girls were much more likely to become prostitutes. I wonder if that is true a) for (female) prostitutes in general and b) for woman who get involved in this kind of thing in Eastern Europe.

(PS. ever notice how commentators get all ga-ga over prostitution in Eastern Europe, but not in Africa, which has a truly gargantuan sex industry? I wonder if skin color just might have something to do with it.)

On objectivity:

TTT is far more objective than the three main Moldovan news orgs. At TTT, you will find material that’s pro and anti Kosovo independence, an anti-Pridnestrovie government petition signed by Moldovans outside of Pridnestrovie, a recent anti-Pridnestrovie commentary from one of the top three Moldovan news orgs. and regularly posted/published material from inside Pridnestrovie, which is critical of the Smirnov administration (Smirnov’s family included). In addition, I know that TTT invited a leading critic of it to submit an article, with the understanding that it wouldn’t be censored. That person declined the offer.

Some aren’t sympathetic to Pridnestrovie having a Russocentric direction. TTT correctly reflects Pridnestrovie’s political climate, while being open to posting/publishing other views.

Regarding Prid., where’re the noticeable ethnic tensions, mass protests and mass exodus from that territory?

“mass exodus from that territory”

Do migrant workers in Russia and the EU count?

Moldova is the poster country for why breaking up the USSR was a bad, bad idea.

Was referring to Prid.

The USSR system should’ve ended. How it broke up was absurd.

Some in that unit wanted to remain together as a reformed enit. They weren’t given the opportunity.

Albanian sex workers are quite numerous. Focussing too much attention on them could lead a trail to some of the Albanian politicos in Kosovo. Kosovo is an example of the West encouraging a primitive nationalist entity.

The Soviet system and the Soviet Union as a territorial entity are not the same thing, obviously.

In retrospect Gorby was right. Incompetent, but right.

My how this thread has drifted, with nary a comment on Israeli Nazis.

“The Soviet system and the Soviet Union as a territorial entity are not the same thing, obviously.”

***

Much of that land was together for a period longer than the USSR’s existence. Also at play is how out of a 300 or so million pop. something like 60 million Soviet citizens lived outside of their SSR of ethnic origin.

Some geo-political predators promoted a divide and conquer stratagem. Some of these same folks oppose independence movements in Quebec and Scotland.

Among others, Anders Aslund comes to mind:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E6DE143CF93BA15755C0A962958260

http://www.inthenationalinterest.com/Articles/Vol3Issue21/Vol3Issue21Letters.html

Take a tour across the entire Russo-Ukrainian border and see how open it is. Reference the number of polls on attitudes in Ukraine towards Russia.

Karatnycky and Kuzio acknowledge how the most anti-Rusisan of Ukrainians aren’t blood thirsty about their views in a way akin to the Albanian-Serb divide over Kosovo.

As technically independent states, Russia and Ukraine remain very close, despite what some Orange elites choose to advocate.

I recall how in the last decade some like Stephen Cohen suggested starvation and civil war erupting in Russia. I said differently during that low point because I know that Russia is a survivor. Throughout history, it’s at its best when it appears defeated. On the other hand, it never quite gets over the hump when many expect it to.

I got a bit lost in the last posts, but on white slavery — actually, a lot of the women get drugged and wake up in a brothel. (I know at least one case where girls from a village in Moldova came to Chisinau, and a “nice” lady put something in their tea at the train station. They woke up in a whorehouse in Russia.) In other cases the ads are more convincing for waitresses or for “exotic dancers” and the women think it’s sort of legit, or voluntary prostitution. They don’t expect to have their passports taken away etc. Yes, you’d think people would know by now, but then — how many people fall for those email orphan scams? Or the phishing letters with grammatical errors?

And I’m trying, but I can’t make any connection between wet T-shirt contests, white slavery and Jewish Nazis, although I can say I thought the Warsaw Pact line was funny:)

Ah! But I can make this connection with racism. There are lots of groups fighting human trafficking, but it’s legally easier when it involves trafficking across state borders. Otherwise the sex industry in a country is its problem (largely). I think for various probably racist reasons the trafficking is of pretty white girls.

I knew a Moldovan prostitute in Dubai. She was ethnic Moldovan as well, and spoke Russian only poorly, which made her easy to speak Russian to. I think her first language was Romanian, or some variation of, but she’d taken it upon herself to learn Greek for some reason, which must have been about as useful as tits on a fish.

I don’t know if she was a Jewish Nazi though, I shamefully forgot to ask her.

MAB

Regarding an earlier comment of yours: contrary to his name, Vladimir Voronin is actually an ethnic Moldovan:

http://www.bhhrg.org/CountryReport.asp?CountryID=16&ReportID=16&ChapterID=102&next=next&keyword=Vladimir%20Voronin

This point was confirmed to me by a multi-ethnic cabal of people I know from the former Moldavian SSR.

On ethnicity and politics, I know that in Turkey, the western Kurds tend to feel far more Turkish than the eastern ones in that country. Having the same ethnicity doesn’t always translate into having the same loyalties. A point Paul Goble recently shared, albeit incorrectly; as per his comments about ethnic Russians in Ukraine supposedly (in his view) not feeling so close with their brethren in Russia. Goble highlights the kind of Western mass media/academia/body politic selective bias in analyzing such matter. With the Russocentric, there’s the divide and conquer approach, as opposed to creating unity among those not having Russocentric sympathies.

“I think her first language was Romanian, or some variation of, but she’d taken it upon herself to learn Greek for some reason, which must have been about as useful as tits on a fish.”

What, no love for Greek? Next you’ll be dissing mighty Latin.

Seriously, maybe she was just smart and inquisitive.

By the way, speaking of the prostitution issue, in one of the billion or so books I have on the Cossacks, one of the arguments the author (who is a figure in the Cossack Revival Movement) makes in support of the thesis that Cossacks are an “osobyi narod” is that while you can find lots of Russian, Ukrainian, Moldovan, Belarusian etc. women in Moscow working as prostitutes and/or strippers, you will find no kazazhki.

(The book’s anti-Semitism is so unabashed that it is funny. The author just can’t shut up about Jews. He also really, really hates Putin and really likes Stalin. Not that any of this is relevant to this thread.)

Seriously, maybe she was just smart and inquisitive.

Not that inquisitive. There were one or two subjects I enquired about which she flatly refused to discuss.

“Not that inquisitive. There were one or two subjects I enquired about which she flatly refused to discuss. ”

It is madness to extrapolate from a sample size of one, but I have been an a conversational basis with one prostitute in my life. Defying stereotypes, he was a male hooker from Canada in Washington DC. He did not strike me as a genius.

Several years ago I used to drink fairly regularly near the same place at the bar as the hookers in a club in northeast Moscow (this was back when clubs were all full of them). For some reason they liked to talk with me, despite my never actually hiring any of them. I imagine they were bored.

It shows how naive I was at the time that it took several weeks for me to realize they were prostitutes.

A more fine tuned reply to some of the stated nonsense about the former Moldavian SSR (Moldova and Pridnestrovie)

Press Censorship in Transdniestria http://transdniestria.co.uk/2007/press-censorship-in-transdniestria.html

With (among other things) a challenge, this post second guesses a recent BBC segment on the disputed former Moldavian SSR ( http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/former_moldavian_ssr_a_non_country_which_broke_in_two.html ) territory of Transdniestria (several related spellings), otherwise known as Pridnestrovie.

***

Frozen Conflicts: Transnistria http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/frozen-conflicts-transnistria

A good deal of inaccurate commentary in this post, which is promoted by Global Voices ( http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/-/world/eastern-central-europe/moldova/ ). Hopefully, GV will show some balance by carrying material from Deciphering Transdniestria.

The referenced Fistful of Euros post omits that prior to 1940, Moldova wasn’t part of the USSR like Pridnestrovie (Transnistria). It disingenuously suggests that Russians only arrived in Pridnestrovie during Soviet times. Pridnestrovie’s capital Tiraspol was founded by a famous Russian general ( http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/alexander_suvorov_russian_military_hero_and_founder_of_tiraspol.html ), with Pridnestrovie’s territory having been part of ancient Russia (Kievan Rus). Pridnestrovie was never part of an independent Moldova.

Contrary to what’s stated in the post, Pridnestrovie has been without Russian aid since the beginning of this year. The post’s description of Russia’s position on Pridnestrovie overlooks what Russia has been ideally seeking; a reunited former Moldovan SSR confederation which is close to Russia ( http://www.eurasianhome.org/xml/t/expert.xml?lang=en&nic=expert&pid=1173 ). It incorrectly claims that Moldova is wealthier than Pridnestrovie.

It falsely suggests that Orthodox Christianity is the only tolerated faith in Pridnestrovie ( http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/pridnestrovie_five_times_more_religions_than_moldova.html ).

Its caricature of Pridnestrovie’s body politic grossly distorts aagainst a multi-political diversity, evident in that disputed former Moldavian SSR territory. Note how it employs a McCarthyite like labeling of Pridnestrovie as a Communist like land. Throughout the former Communist bloc, the red star has a somewhat redefined meaning. In Pridnestrovie, Russian Imperial General Alexander Suvorov is a considerably more revered figure than Vladimir Lenin. Meantime, Moldova has a duly elected Communist president (a point not noted in the Fistful of Euros post).

Without any cited foundation, the post claims that Moldova offered autonomy to Pridnestrovie. In point of fact, Moldova turned down a settlement proposal on that very premise.

Unlike Kosovo, the different ethnic groups in Pridnestrovie get along well. The post can’t seem to make up its mind on the issue of Moldova’s policy on ethnic groups. Note this quote in paragraph 10: “As for the conflict itself. well, it’s not so much frozen as dusty and abandoned. The original reason for it was that ethnic Russians didn’t want to be oppressed by ethnic Moldovans/Romanians. That has half disappeared. Moldova has promised autonomy and good treatment, and those promises are plausible; the Moldovans have treated their Russians inside Moldova pretty well, and have kept promises of autonomy made to their Gagauz. (The Gagauz are Christian Turks. Long story.)” Later on, the post states in paragraph 13: “Another problem is that the Moldovan leadership has shown a distinctly tin ear in relations with Moldova’s Russian and Ukrainian minorities. There are almost no Russians or Ukrainians in government, and the country has been undergoing a slow but steady process of Romanianization; in Chisinau, for instance, all the streets have been recently renamed after Romanian cultural heroes, and Russian signs are getting harder to find.”

When belittling Pridnestroive’s case for independence, the post ignores how that land’s territory (about twice the size of Luxembourg) and population (roughly the same as Montenegro) is on par and in some instances greater than what’s evident with some other European countries. Pridnestrovie’s standard of living is noticeably higher than Albania’s and Moldova’s.

The post’s conclusion ignores a point which is quite obvious to many in the former Moldavian SSR (Moldova and Pridnestrovie alike), regardless of their ethnicity. Moldova’s economy was much better off when it was linked to Pridnestrovie, Russia and the other lands making up the USSR. Due to Moldova’s developed post-Soviet poverty (it’s now considered the poorest country in Europe), it’s not likely to be picked up anytime soon by the EU, which hasn’t given full membership rights to two of its newest members (Romania and Bulgaria).

Forgot to mention that the arms smuggling claims are inaccurately hyped:

http://tiraspoltimes.com/news/no_weapons_smuggling_from_transdniestria_eu_border_monitors_say.html

As is the bogus suggestion that Prid. is of no economic value. It provides much needed electrical power to parts of Ukraine, Moldova and Romania.

Contrast the Serb stance on Kosovo versus how Moldovans are considerably more willing to ditch Pridnestrovie in exchange for EU membership:

http://tiraspoltimes.com/news/majority_of_moldovans_willing_to_accept_transnistrias_independence.html

One reason having to do with Kosovo being more historically akin to Serbia than what Prid. is to Moldova. The other relating to Moldova’s sorry post-Soviet economic condition.

Given some of its attitudes, the EU shouldn’t be seen as the sole key to success.

I can’t say that I’ve ever had the opportunity to chat up a prostitute.

I have visited some truly spectacular strip clubs in Montreal and Miami, however.

Regarding Cossacks, I found out the other evening that my mother-in-law is one-quarter Don Cossack herself.

“Regarding Cossacks, I found out the other evening that my