No Cossack Love for Cathy

Cossacks! Hooray!

Are these “Cossacks” actual ethnic Cossacks, or are they part of a nationalist movement that has appropriated the name “Cossack”? That is always something you have to watch for. (There is some overlap between those groups however.) I know little about contemporary Ukrainian Cossackdom.

I checked out the website of the main Cossack organization in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Registered Cossacks, and here is what they say: http://kozatstvo.org.ua/globalnews/index.php?&task=details&id=1950&year=2007&lang=e

I’ve a Russocentric/monarchical (sympathy with the latter, while not seeking an absolutist restoration) version of a Worker’s World Party like attitude on Catherine and the Cossacks. The WWP seems to take a line that Lenin, Trotsky, Mao (maybe Stalin as well) are all okay. A much different tact from the CPUSA, SWP and the Cold War era pro-Albanian CPUSA Marxist-Leninist (not sure if the last one still exists).

It was a group of Cossacks who tired of Pugachev and took Catherine’s line against him. Contemporary Ukrainian nationalist Cossacks hate Catherine for what she did to Pugachev (seen as a fellow Cossack, despite his “Russianness” if you may) and her role as head of a Russian state.

Catherine has Ekaterinburg.

Regarding Catherine the Great:

Vladimir the Great? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/31/AR2007083101533.html

Some cliched comparisons in this one.

By today’s standards, it’s easy to bash Catherine the Great. Only Catherine was living in a much different era. The article’s treatment of Putin is skewed as well.

When comparing Putin and Catherine, the article doesn’t discuss their respective political limits. Catherine had to balance enlightened ideas with the clout of an aristocracy, having some influential elements which weren’t so enlightened. Likewise, Putin isn’t in full control of everything in Russia.

As noted awhile back at another thread, Philip Longworth’s book on the Cossacks is a good read:

http://www.philiplongworth.com/html/also_author_of….html

Ditto his others like the one on Suvorov:

http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/news/alexander_suvorov_russian_military_hero_and_founder_of_tiraspol.html

He uses a good deal of Russian and non-Russian primary and secondary source material.

A link to some Cosssack related material:

http://searchportal.information.com/?epl=01460064R1UMXGYWVlEFDVBRDVZTAlMHUAFFUVgMAFxbVllZVFhWWxFLWAZYR09fEAQeFgNSE1cOaBNaRFwMVFxWZ1hUA0FrDllXAVpaBhYRBlkXBVs_QB9HBghbCA9eE1lnXVVYAwdVHlISbEYAXgleDQ&query=Cossacks

Pugachev was a Don Cossack. These are Ukrainians. It’s a totally different group.

Not quite. If memory serves correct, many Ukrainian Cossacks supported him.

Also, many Russians and Ukrainians don’t see each other as “totally different”.

Yup.

See section referencing Pugachev.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Cossacks

I hate using Wiki. However, its reference on the Uke Cossacks supporting him agrees with the more academic work I’ve seen on the matter.

BTW, during the so called “Orange Revolution”, the Zaporozhe Cossacks went Blue.

On Russians and Ukrainians: in Ukraine and Russia alike, some people having “Ukrainian” names like Chumachenko and Kovalchuk might list themselves as ethnic Russians and some others with “Russian” names like Petrov and Ivanov might list themselves as ethnic Ukrainians. Gogol was a simultaneously Russian and Ukrainian literary figure.

Russians and Ukrainians are much more inter-related than the English and Scots are with themselves.

On a somewhat related note, it’s very hypocritical for many Ukrainian nationalists to deny the Rusyn identity prevalent in Trans-Carpathia. The former claims that the latter are too related to the Ukrainians and fear a political separation by recognizing the latter’s identity. These very same Ukrainian nationalists take great lenghts at trying to doownplay the similarities between Russians and Ukrainians.

These very same Ukrainian nationalists are often quick to promote Crimean tatar rights as a way of sticking it to the Russocentric Slavs.

“Not quite. If memory serves correct, many Ukrainian Cossacks supported him.”

That has nothing to do with it. Bashkirs and Tatars also supported him. In fact he probably spoke a different language from the Ukrainian Cossacks. Russian and Ukrainian Cossacks have practically nothing to do with each other, except in the Kuban. They have different histories, different customs, and often different religions. In fact pretty much the only thing they have in common is a history of hatred of the Tsar until sometime in the 1800s when they were grudgingly assimilated.

Pugachev is not central to Ukrainian Cossack history, unlike, oh, the destruction of the Sich and the Cossack state.

That’s Tatars. Time for a new keyboard.

Actually, Gogol is a Chuvash name.

Oh yeah? Regarding Russian and Ukrainian Cossacks, I know of NO Uniate Cossacks.

Have you ever heard of the term/concept “Cosack brotherhood”? On top of that is the previously posted inter-relationship between Russians and Ukrainians. The Tryzub (Trident), Ukraine’s readopted coat of arms is an ancient Russian symbol. It was the family emblem of the Riuriks who governed Russia up thru the end of Ivan the Fierce’s (“Terrible’s”) rule.

Pardon misspell.

Gogol was what he felt himself to be.

The earlier reference about Uniate includes Catholics as well.

Ethnically, Cossacks could’ve come from family background with either Polish and-or Turkish ancestry. Some Jews inter-married with Cossacks as well. Upon becoming Cossack, Orthodox Christianity prevailed. I gather the Bashkir example to be the exception.

Uh, yes. Cossacks in Chechnya tended to be Old Believers. Kalmyk Cossacks are, suprise!, Buddhists. As a matter of fact, Russian (ethnic) Cossacks are to a large extent the descendents of religious minorities (and criminals) who fled the Russian Empire.

(Actually the whole White Diaspora emigree image of Cossacks as some kind of pro-monarchy, tsar- and Russian-Empire-loving force is pretty funny to anyone acquainted with the history.)

That’s backgrounds. Keyboard being replaced.

“Ethnically, Cossacks could’ve come from family background with either Polish and-or Turkish ancestry. Some Jews inter-married with Cossacks as well. Upon becoming Cossack, Orthodox Christianity prevailed. I gather the Bashkir example to be the exception.”

Sigh. *NO*. It varied according to group of people. Some required conversion to Orthodoxy; some did not. Some were considered heretics by the Orthodox Church. There is not and has never been a unified group of people called “Cossacks” with a single belief system.

I have no idea how Bashkirs are supposed to figure into this.

“(Actually the whole White Diaspora emigree image of Cossacks as some kind of pro-monarchy, tsar- and Russian-Empire-loving force is pretty funny to anyone acquainted with the history.)’

Bullshit. Among other points, reference Skoropadsky and a recent BBC feature that JRL posted at its Russia Profile domain.

What’s asinine, is how some left of center types have warped views of how White Russians generally think on such matter.

“a recent BBC feature”

Thanks for making me laugh.

IMHO should be replaced with a Dave Allen at Large kind of show. In addition to the humor, the latter would be more informative and interesting.

Russia’s Cossacks Ride Again
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6937562.stm

Russian Patches.com
http://www.russianpatches.com/

Note the presence of the two headed eagle on a number of organizations, including CSKA and the Cossacks.

Also note that the Cossack academy in Novocherkassk flies a version of the Imperial Russian flag.

As an aside, I note that the White Emigree Russian School of Historical Falsification is not in essence different from the Ukrainian Emigree Nationalist School of Historical Falsification. The only difference is that one believes in myths about how awesome the Empire was and how everybody got along, and the other went to Ukie School and believes myths about how evil the Empire was.

Those broadly stated last comments from CD don’t legitimately negate what I’d posted.

In point of fact, people of White Russian background have written some pretty impressive historical accounts, much unlike the Ukrainian nationalist variant.

As per my recent Dave Allen at Large reference, see:

http://members.tripod.com/~DaveAllenFan/

It’s tough to do a political commentary show without a guest and-or co-host. When doing his show, the late Dave Allen had a bottle of booze to keep him company.

Mike, BBC articles written by dilettantes who can’t tell the difference between an asphalt Cossack and a village Cossack are worthless. May I instead recommend the following academic paper: “From Estate to Ethnos: The Changing Nature of Cossack Identity in the Twentieth Century,” Peter Holquist. http://www.tau.ac.il/~russia/series/book8.html

Or here: http://synopsis.kubsu.ru/index_jornal.htm

“Note the presence of the two headed eagle on a number of organizations, including CSKA and the Cossacks.”

Sigh. This is an organization that has taken the name “Cossack.” They are not actual Cossacks, any more than the Washington Redskins are actual American Indians.

Quit mixing up two different meanings of the word.

For your own biases sake, you conveniently overlook the flying of the Imperial Russian flag at the Novocherkassk Cossack academy. A venue that isn’t plastic Cossack.

Chris, I regularly critique BBC inaccuracies. As per that BBC piece on the Cossacks, detail its faults.

I’ll check those links you gave. Philip Longworth’s book on the subject is a good read.

This Wiki. bio. on Krasnov doesn’t appear to be so bad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Krasnov

Krasnov didn’t trust Vlasov because of the latter’s former “Red” affiliation. Many of Peter’s Cossacks went over to Vlasov’s POA (Cyrillic abbreviation).

Like other groups, the Cossacks aren’t monolithic. Nevertheless, there’re some prevailing trends.

As per Sean’s post, I’m glad ot see the folks of Odessa supporting Catherine. This said by someone who very much admires the Cossacks, minus the negatives involving some of them.

A link to some articles on Pridnestrovie’s Cossacks:

http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/search/node/Cossacks

“For your own biases sake, you conveniently overlook the flying of the Imperial Russian flag at the Novocherkassk Cossack academy. A venue that isn’t plastic Cossack.”

I have no “biases.” I have simply researched this particular subject matter extensively and know what I am talking about.

Actually, the academy is Asphalt Cossack. It is a product of a wing of the revival movement that attempts to seek state support. This wing is urban, its members are widely viewed as corrupt by actual village Cossacks, and it is to a relatively large extent nonethnic Cossack. It is, thus, viewed by many dontsy as fake.

“Chris, I regularly critique BBC inaccuracies. As per that BBC piece on the Cossacks, detail its faults.”

Jumping from a village of 300 people to make judgments about a Cossack population of 250,000+ strikes me as a fault. There is not and has never been a single Cossack ideology or belief system, even among people active in the Revival Movement. PS. Cossacks mostly wear jeans and t-shirts, not goofy uniforms. I used to date one; I should know.

There is a great deal of academic literature being written on this subject, mainly in Russian, much of which I make a point of reading since this is a matter of particular interest to me. So forgive me if I gag at being pointed to a BBC article.

“Like other groups, the Cossacks aren’t monolithic. Nevertheless, there’re some prevailing trends.”

Within Russian Cossackdom there are. I do not believe however that Russian Cossackdom in its current form has much to do with Ukrainian Cossackdom. The latter, as far as I can tell, is almost exclusively a Ukrainian nationalist movement. Russian Cossackdom in some of its branches bears some features of a Russian nationalist movement, but it is far from simply that (which is not surprising, given that Cossacks are conceived of as a separate ethnos or subethnos and not as simply “Russians”).

One which was highlighted by JRL.

You keep using the “ethnic Cossack” term. As you know, Cossacks were freed serfs, comprising different ethnic groups.

We all have biases. Your mentioned biases pertain to how you characterize the White Russian community and Vlasov.

I’ll check into what you said about the Novocherkassk academy.

First paragraph of my last post relates to the BBC article.

“I do not believe however that Russian Cossackdom in its current form has much to do with Ukrainian Cossackdom. The latter, as far as I can tell, is almost exclusively a Ukrainian nationalist movement.”

****

Check that. My understanding is that the Zaporozhe Cossacks vote Blue.

In the Diaspora, Skoropadsky and his followers belnded with White Russians. BTW, Skoropadsky supported a union with Russia. His main differences with Denikin seemed to be related to the former’s German backing. During the Russian Civil War, Denikin maintained Russia as a Western ally against the Central Powers.

I am using “ethnic Cossack” because Cossacks have historically considered themselves a distinct people and to distinguish between it and the various nationalist and paramilitary groups that call themselves Cossack but may or may not have anything to do with the former. As you know ethnicity is not a real thing, but is a social construct.

The Asphalt/Village Cossack split goes back to the late 1980s. Actually I have a neat little anthropological paper describing the village antipathy to the official Cossack Movement in the Kuban region on my computer at home. Hoyt also goes into this to some extent IIRC. (He’s a nice guy — I wrote him and he sent me a copy of his paper.)

“As you know ethnicity is not a real thing, but is a social construct.”

****

Slavic, Arab and Germanic are social constructs as opposed to clearly different ethnic groups?

I’ll see what the Harriman Institute has on this subject (Cossacks) when I go there next week.

I know little about Ukrainian Cossack history after the destruction of the Sich. I do know however that Ukrainian Cossacks are supposed to have reacted differently than Russian ones in the Civil War. (Which was mostly apathetically at first, and then largely with hostility to the Reds as the Bolsheviks made “the Don as a snake’s nest of reaction” into a self-fulfilling prophecy. This was complicated of course as many Dons and Kubans hoped that the Bolsheviks would give them local governance, and there was also a Cossack separatist movement.)

Evidence of the complexity can be shown by the existence of the following interesting document:

Cossacks, Form Up in a Soviet Column!
(In connection with the forthcoming Cossack congress)
By Leon Trotsky

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1920/military/ch104.htm

“Slavic, Arab and Germanic are social constructs as opposed to clearly different ethnic groups?”

All ethnic/national groups are social constructs. That is, unless one wants to be Volkish.

“As you know, Cossacks were freed serfs, comprising different ethnic groups.”

Technically, they weren’t FREED serfs, they were ESCAPED serfs, or rather their descendents.

My apologies for not reading all the comments, so this may have been addressed already. Since I have some Cossack (Terek) blood myself, I just have to make it clear that there were many Cossack groups (hosts) and the origin of a particular Cossack host can be quite different from the other. For example, even though the Terek and Kuban Cossacks lived fairly close to each other, their origins were quite different. In other words, there is plenty of variety among the Cossacks. Some originated in what is now Ukraine, others in what is now Russia, others in areas that overlap both of these countries.

THANK YOU KOLYA!!!!!!!!!! Lubo to you!

The Tereks are my favorite voisko after the Dons. I would love to ask you questions about part of their history that I find mysterious.

“I know little about Ukrainian Cossack history after the destruction of the Sich. I do know however that Ukrainian Cossacks are supposed to have reacted differently than Russian ones in the Civil War. (Which was mostly apathetically at first, and then largely with hostility to the Reds as the Bolsheviks made “the Don as a snake’s nest of reaction” into a self-fulfilling prophecy. This was complicated of course as many Dons and Kubans hoped that the Bolsheviks would give them local governance, and there was also a Cossack separatist movement.)

Evidence of the complexity can be shown by the existence of the following interesting document:

Cossacks, Form Up in a Soviet Column!
(In connection with the forthcoming Cossack congress)
By Leon Trotsky”

****

Trotsky, a man with great Cossack roots.

The two most prominent Russian Civil War era Cossacks were Krasnov (Russian) and Skoropadsky (Ukrainian). Both opposed the Reds, while favoring some form of union between Russia and Ukraine.

Up until WW II, the USSR wasn’t known as a particularly Cossack friendly place. During WW II, it’s my understanding (will have to check) that a Red Army Cossack unit was created. It consisted of many who had no prior Cossack roots.

A quick checking of the Novocherkassk Cossack academy reveals that it has genuine Cossack elements to it. Suggesting corrupt aspects within it is relative. As an aside example, some find corrupt aspects with Russian government funded Eng. lang. media/PR ventures. This doesn’t demean all those connected with such projects.

Regarding the Cossacks of Ukraine, note the differences of opinion regarding Ivan Mazepa’s legacy.

Last year, I recall Ukraianian opposition to an attempt on the part of other Ukrainians to honor Mazepa. One anti-Mazepa advocate, Natalia Vitrenko suggested creating a musuem of traitors, with Mazepa among others in mind.

Mazepa’s loss to Peter had a good deal to do with many Ukrainian Cossacks taking Peter’s side.

“The two most prominent Russian Civil War era Cossacks were Krasnov (Russian) and Skoropadsky (Ukrainian). Both opposed the Reds, while favoring some form of union between Russia and Ukraine.”

More important than Semyon Budyonny and Atamans Semenov and Dutov?

How big were their respective forces when compared to Krasnov’s and Skoropadsky’s?

The latter came from a well known Cossack family which opposed Mazepa.

On an earlier point about biases in relation to this topic, do you not admit to finding the more Red of Cossacks to be of a greater interest?

Actually I am not very interested in Civil War-era Cossack politics. I am interested in contemporary ethnology and folklore.

Budenny was Budenny. Kind of an important person. As far as I know the only Cossack to ever appear on the cover of Time.

Didn’t know that about him being on Time’s cover.

He’s among the more well known of not so distant Cossacks.

Back later as a necron, I mean neocon has just sent me a pissed reply of hers. I’ve a few others like that to catch up on.

Back for a quickie. Here’s a not so bad Wiki overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoropadsky

The referenced Petlura was a Polish puppet, who sold out western Ukraine to Pilsudski. Somewhat bizarre how many modern day Glaicians admire his past.

Petlura was killed in Paris by a Jewish person, whose motive was the anti-Jewish attacks Petlura’s forces committed during the Russian Civil War. On that issue, Skoropadsky and his people had a considerably cleaner record.

Wiki did a good job here noting how many Ukrainian Cossacks backed Ivan Skoropadsky over Ivan Mazepa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Host

This thread seems to be pretty much just of interest to me and Mike, for different reasons, but anyway…

It strikes me how people who love to talk about how Russia supposedly doesn’t have any grassroots movements or civil society seem to be completely oblivious of the Cossack Revival Movement, which is huge and certainly qualifies as both. Not as big as it used to be, but still not something to sneeze at. Unless you have a really, really big nose.

Come to think of it, the Movement Against Illegal Immigration is another grassroots movement and manifestation of civil society.

So, I am inclined to think that when people lament the lack of grassroots movements and civil society, what they really mean is a lack of grassroots movements and civil society that they agree with. It’s quite funny.

For the sake of clarity: Budenny was definitely not a Cossack. He was an inogorodny.

“For the sake of clarity: Budenny was definitely not a Cossack. He was an inogorodny.”

Hmm? Clarify? I thought he was a Don Cossack? There’s a statue of him in Rostov-on-Don on Budennovskaya Ulitsa, near the hotel.* The one person I got into a conversation with about this down there told me he was one (albeit a traitor).

*Which doesn’t mean he was a Cossack of course. Was he a non-Cossack who migrated to the Don? Rostov IIRC was never a Cossack town.

By the way Kolya, could you answer a question about Terek history that I am fuzzy about? As I understand things the Tereks were heavily de-Cossackized by the Bolsheviks, their land given to vainakh and many people collectivized and/or deported. But then, I also read about a post-1917 Terek cultural and demographic footprint in the region up to the present day, so there must have been some survival. What happened?

An explanation would make me very happy, as I have much wondered about this!

Aha, I found an answer to the Budenny issue in an interview with his daughter. Though he is widely believed to be a Cossack, he was as Kolya says an inogorodets:

Cемен Михайлович и вправду из казаков?

- Все так и думали, но на самом деле его семья из Воронежской губернии: они переехали на Дон, когда дедушке моему, папиному отцу Михал Иванычу, было два года. Им казалось, что на Дону земли много, а земля-то вся казачья. (Казачьим семьям при рождении каждого мальчика по пятнадцать десятин прирезалось.) Но казаки отдавали землю в аренду, вот они на Дону и обосновались. Папа казаков любил и всю жизнь старался быть не хуже их. И шашкой владеть, и на лошади ездить…

http://www.peoples.ru/military/hero/budenny/

Sorry, Chrisius Maximus, but I don’t know much about the subject of your question. And although I have some Terek Cossack in me, I’ve been in the Terek region only once. Actually, the stanitsa my Terek ancestors are from is now officially part of Chechnya–not because of the Chechens, but because of the capricious way many of he borders were delimited during the Soviet period.

Thank you Kolya. I understand that part of the background of the Chechen Wars has to do with that very attachment of Terek territory onto Chechnya.

From what I read I understand that a lot of the Slavic population that fled Chechnya in the early 1990s was Terek Cossack (Naursky District). I have also read that during the Maskhadov era Chechen teips opposed to Islamisation found refuge with Terek stanitsas they were connected to by intermarriage and other reasons. But that contradicts other things I’ve read about thorough de-Cossackization in that area in the Soviet period. Which was why I asked the question. Once again, thanks.

“This thread seems to be pretty much just of interest to me and Mike, for different reasons, but anyway…”

***

You’d be surprised who reads these kind of threads without participatng in them.

A similar thread was how the BBC came across me.

An editor of a Moscow based Eng lang. venue rejected a submission of mine on account of my commentary at threads like these. Said editor didn’t like what I said about her venue of employment.

The kind of Eng. lang. mass media freedom preaching to Russia.

An editor of a Moscow based Eng lang. venue rejected a submission of mine on account of my commentary at threads like these. Said editor didn’t like what I said about her venue of employment.

I can sympathise. I once had a job application rejected by an engineering manager on the grounds that I’d once shouted around a bar that his company was a pile of shite. Damned unfair, I thought.

So much for free speech. A point of issue in the most free of socities.

The standard Eng. lang. mass media counter-reply to muting some views is that they’re free to pick and choose what they like in an open society.

On the other hand, many of the Eng. lang. mass media/academia/body politic elites expect others like Russian mass media to post/publish material not to the latter’s liking. For many Anglo-American elitny, the key difference (in their view) is that Russian society isn’t free or as free. Never mind that Russians do have access to other views and are intelligent enough to make their own coherent decisions.

For David Remnick, Russian mass media’s deemphasizing of Anna Politkovskaya is seen as censorship and not that many Russians found her work partisan in a way that wasn’t to their liking. Remnick doesn’t impress as someone particularly open minded to views different from his own.

So mab and others can choose to not sympathize with the kind of disgust which is often downplayed in the free (for those who can afford to influence it) press.

Just came across this overview of Cossackia:

http://members.tripod.com/~marcin_w/index-3.html

Upon a very quick perusal, it seems agreeable.

“I can sympathise. I once had a job application rejected by an engineering manager on the grounds that I’d once shouted around a bar that his company was a pile of shite. Damned unfair, I thought.”

Are you sure it wasn’t because of a plot by David Johnson’s Engineering List?

Glossing over Mark Ames’ article on that Soviet acting chap. He made your friend issue a pathetic apology to Gessen, Albats and Lipman. He probably influenced him to drop his short lived Media Watch feature. He did some other things as well, which reflect on the often times lousy to stale Eng. lang. coverage of the former USSR. Like Robert Bridge’s Soviet like softball interview of him.

Do you think he can hold his own in a panel where he’s actually challenged? Ditto Aslund and some others.

Some anti-Cossack bigotry at Sonoma State University (read down into linked article):

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060323/NEWS/603230302/1033/NEWS01

An SSU official emailed me his displeasure with the name change and added that he was Jewish on his mother’s side (thereby making him Jewish according to Jewish law). He mailed me an SSU Cossacks T-shirt.

Northern Califorina had a Rusisan presence. Hence, names like Russian Hill in San Francisco.

Cossacks Find Their Roots In Southern Russia
http://www.russiatoday.ru/features/news/13819

Paging Timothy Post.

These kind of partisan views on the Mazepa-Peter confrontation go typically unchallenged:

http://us.f348.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=319_3787434_314479_1640_128084_0_18389_308925_865841890&Idx=0&YY=99603&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&inc=25&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&box=Inbox#a22

They’re still at it against Catherine in Odessa:

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/14547

**** ‘em.

Talk about rewriting history:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2007/10/04/006.html

Cossack Beauty Queen
http://www.russiatoday.ru/features/news/15243