Macho Realism

Actually, Sergei, my father-in-law is a year older than Putin and I bet he could take ole’ Pooty poot and his pumped-up pecs.

Sergei practices yoga is deadly with a knife at anything less than 20 meters. He was going to show me how to throw knives, but I’m hopeless. He did show me various yoga excercises intended to strengthen my torso and promote prostate and bladder health.

The things men talk about in banya …

When I first saw this shot, I couldn’t help but think, “Score one for the Putin-TR comparison school.”

It’s a bit disturbing that he has no chest hair, though. It’s been my experience men without chest hair can not be trusted. He also seems to be lacking in the armpit hair department as well, another strike against him.

Actually Bush is supposed to be in really good physical shape as well. It’s been said that he can hold his own on a mountain bike, and that the secret service guys have a hard time keeping up with him. Not surprising really, people who suffered from addiction in the past usually find exercise to be a good substitute for other vices.

No armpit hair? Do you think he waxes? Or shaves? He’s in better shape than I am, though, so I guess I shouldn’t talk too much smack.

The Greco-Roman tradition nutures the ideal of a healthy body complimenting a healthy mind.

Bush and Rice are known to follow workout regimens. Some would say that’s a contradiction to the mentioned Greco-Roman point. Bush and Rice are certainly no less intelligent for working out.

Much has been written about the current average average life span of Russians. Americans are fatter and less prone to getting physical.

It’s positive for leaders to live and promote a healthy lifestyle.

On a realted noted, this weekend is the IAAF (track and field or as the Brits and others say “athletics”). World Championships in Japan. I caught some of a recent meet in the Czech Republic. The Russian squad has some really impressive looking women.

I’ll end on that note.

Pardon misspell in last post.

Just remembered a feature I saw on Vesti before it was taken off of the New York market and replaced by “Polish and Slavic News”. The involved segment was a positive review of a very healthy looking all female Israeli DF tank crew and their daily regimen. One of the featured Israelis was a Falasha.

No mass citing of Russian media promoting health, sexual equality and ethnic diversity.

Actually many men in Russia do shave their armpits in the summer. We Americans have a different body-hair paradigm: women shave armpits, legs and “bikini line”; men don’t shave much of anything. Here some men shave their armpits and some women don’t shave anything. Or — to let you know what women see and discuss on the other side of the wall in the bath house — sometimes they shave EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING. (Don’t get that look at all, but I gather it’s common in the Middle East, too. Seems too suggestive of pre-adolescents to me).

I know zillions of women here find Mr P irresistable, but I frankly don’t get it. I don’t find him the least bit attractive. But I’m an equal opportunity b****; Bush doesn’t do it for me either.

In addition to SL & SRB, this matter (Putin’s shirtless look) has caught the attention of at least one other blog:

http://eastern-european-forum.blogspot.com/2007/08/shirtless-putin-gets-tongues-wagging.html

There’re no doubt more.

Actually, armpit-trimming is a smart thing to do in the summer. And apparently there are now some American men who engage in body hair removal, since hairy chests are passe…but I don’t think they take it to the “EVERYTHING” level.

Mike, I’m not trying to take issue with this just because you said it, but – while it’s of course true that “Americans are fatter” – I had a friend who worked in a public-health-related NGO with Russia who once made a strong impression by harshly rebuking me for suggesting obesity is less of a problem there – Russia apparently doesn’t keep its own obesity statistics, but according to this guy it’s a pretty big health problem. It’s a problem mostly for older people, though, specifically older women, so there isn’t high visibility or a sense of soul-searching crisis about it. Even pravda.ru agrees it’s a problem, though! Check it out.

Using Google more seriously, I found some reports that suggest overweight/obesity is a bit of a health problem in Russia. Check out page 1 (“background information”) of this admittedly somewhat outdated WHO report, citing a 55% obesity rate (seems unbelievably high, but there it is). More recent numbers in this WHO report (see page two) support the conclusion that there’s a very small childhood obesity problem, but for adult women the situation compares unfavorably with other European countries. They also show percentages much lower than 55%, but I guess it’s all in how you define overweight/obese. More data can be downloaded here.

There’s also a recent and very interesting Brookings paper comparing obesity and socioeconomic status in the US & Russia. I don’t entirely agree with their conclusions, which include the suggestion that being overweight is not stigmatized in Russia (do they know about face control?) and is associated with prosperity (perhaps still true in rural areas, but not in Moscow – though of course “Moscow isn’t Russia”), but it’s an interesting paper to skim. It also makes the following statement:

Hopefully Putin’s fitness will set a good example.

oops, didn’t close the link – sorry.

” remaining on par with or slightly higher than that of the U.S., depending on which estimates are used.”

I do not believe that for a second. My own eyes and experience in living in both Russia and Jumboland tell me otherwise. It is quite rare to see an obese person in Moscow.

“so there isn’t high visibility”

Ok, maybe that’s it. Maybe they’re all at home!

Chris, my own experience and observations lead me to agree with you and find that statement to be belief-defying – I think it’s just a question of how you define “overweight/obese” and where the data points are collected. Lots of Russian women of pension age might easily fall into this category without looking remarkably large, and they tend to sort of blend in to the scenery (by which I mean, you’re not getting whiplash from checking them out). And while I totally agree with you about Moscow, who knows what the situation is in rural areas? I don’t think there are any 300-400-pound people out there, which you do see in the US, but there may be a lot of 200-250-pound people.

Yes, I think there are different standards. I Muscovite friend of mine, who has a beer gut, calls himself “obese.” In my book, a beer gut is not obesity.

Point taken about elderly women.

I like your book. I think generally these studies use something based on BMI, but I didn’t read the fine print on all of them.

BTW, when I mentioned visibility, it wasn’t that people stay home (though I think that’s what some morbidly obese people do anywhere, although I know there are many more such people in the US), it’s that in a youth-oriented culture, you don’t see as many older people on TV, in ads, etc., so their problems are not center-stage.

Timeout!

How reflective is Moscow from the rest of Russia?

Lyndon, I don’t deny that Russians are likely in poorer health. The current average life expectancy being a reference.

Whether in the US or elsewhere, there’s a lack of an appreciative need to continue working out. My old man was a decorated USMC recon. sgt. and Ivy League wrestling champ, who let himself physically go for naught after marriage and kids, plus smoking. A number of Russians (others as well) seem to follow a path of great youthful athleticism, given up by their mid to late twenties

Obesity is hard to measure and so far there aren’t unified international standards. I’ve also read reports that the average obesity rate in Russia is about the same as the US. The deal is that it is an average rate for the country, so impressions that Muscovites are not as overweight as New Yorkers may be true. It is distributed differently than in the US in terms of urban/rural and regions, as well as in age groups. So far kids are not suffering much from it.

Minzdrav recognizes the problem though, since it contributes to diabetes (Russia has a fairly high rate) and of course all the heart diseases. Exercise is also a big issue. It’s become cool in the bigger cities, but not in the smaller ones. Competitive sports used to be really supported, but sports for fun were not. There is something of a campaign to change that, and I wish them well. In my dacha settlement I still get people — mostly Tajik workers, but not only — who stop and stare when I jog. They think it’s weird. There are usually offers to let me dig their fence ditches if I want a work out.

Another issue that I’m interested in that some comments above touched on is Russian male’s concept of masculinity. I think that it is interesting that some of us men are disturbed by the lack of chest hair on Putin and with the idea that he might wax. There are other practices that Russian men do that American men might cringe at. The collective male nudity at the bania being one. Another is Russian men’s dress, which tends to be more formal and stylish than the T-shirt sneakers short wearing (which I call the dad-i-form)average American man. Plus there is the whole American male anxiety about the “metrosexual”. I wonder if such issues are of similar concern for Russian men.

I really need to get back to work, but these are all issues that I contend with in my marriage, so thought I should throw in a couple of points.

I have definitely historically fallen into the typical-American-guy category when it comes to grooming. Explanation to Katja: “American men think you’re likely gay or vain or both if your paying too much attention to your appearence”.

In the great spirit of compromise upon which this country was founded, I shave certain body parts (most notably armpits) to appease my lovely wife’s Russki tastes. It isn’t a big deal, I’m pretty light haired anyway.

Pants and jeans that she picks out are typically more styled, boot-cut, etc. She has purchased my last two pairs of shoes as my shoes appeared to look too much like heavy boots. No, she didn’t get me those pointy toed leather shoes that seem to prevail in Russia. Linen shirts and pants in summer are definitely “in” in her book, so I have a couple of pair of each.

Yes, former coworkers and long-time friends have joked that I’m dressing a bit more “metro” these days.

I can’t speak about an American hang-up being naked in places like the banya, I never had a problem with that. I do know that American men wouldn’t be comfortable in the banana-hammock speedo’s that Russians tend to wear at the beach. However, we get a fair number of Quebecois here, so it isn’t wholly uncommon on the local beaches. In Ogunquit or Old Orchard Beach they might even be a majority.

One last style point – farts are definitely out.

On the health issue, my wifes family is definitely concerned, I would say almost obsessed and/or superstitious about health. Skvoznyak, eating habits (quantities and time of day), different attitudes towards high-fat dairy foods, etc. Katja and her father are both into yoga and most alternative medicines or techniques (lately its been sitting or laying on this pin-cushion mat thing like a yogi for potential back or joint problems, etc.)

Katja says that fat people in the U.S. are different than fat people in Russia. American variety are more soft and plump, fat everywhere, and it appears at earlier ages and she is often just shocked by it.

I live in flyover country so the whole “metrosexual” thing hasn’t really taken hold. If any of my friends were to be found shaving anything below their neck, they would be ridiculed endlessly about it by the rest of us. It’s just one of those cultural norms, for better or worse, that men are not supposed to be vain and shallow. I should note that body shaving is acceptable for bicyclers and swimmers here though.

Anyway, as for obesity. Once again, in the town I live, obesity seems to correlate fairly well with economic status. Those that are at or around the poverty level are far more likely to be obese than those that are in the middle to upper classes. In other words, the percentage of skinny people in a trailer park probably is about the same as the number of obese people in a gated community, which would be probably around 20% if I had to guess.

As for the cause(s) of such a correlation, it seems to me that those who are better paid tend to be better at delaying gratification and have more self control. Add to that, the fact that foods high in calories and fat tend to be cheaper than healthy foods here. You can buy a 5000 calorie meal at McDonalds for $5. To get the same amount of calories at an upscale restaurant may cost you $25 to $50.

Shedd said: “my father-in-law is a year older than Putin and I bet he could take ole’ Pooty poot and his pumped-up pecs.”

Do you mean you fathe-in-law has good chances to run for Russian president title?
Otherwise I didn’t get your point. I thought we are talking about Russian politics not about who is more cool in yoga. )
Also standard range for Makarov’s shooting is 25 meters. So your father-in-law has low chances with his 20 meters-range-knife against Putin’s 9 mm bullets.

PS. Makarov = ПМ = пистолет Макарова

A couple more thoughts on that Brookings paper, which talked about a low stigma attached to being overweight in Russia. I don’t think that holds for Moscow, but who knows about the rural regions – maybe they still believe in the idea of a beer belly being a direktorskii zhivot. Mike, of course Moscow is not representative of Russia as a whole, and I hope I made clear my sense on that when I wrote, “Moscow is not Russia” above.

Anyway, my guess is that a study of how happy/unhappy overweight people are about their weight will find fewer unhappy people among older overweight folks – so, the lower stigma this study supposedly found could be primarily b/c of age. I definitely don’t think it’s socially acceptable to be young and overweight in Russia. One of those sets of figures I linked to (or maybe it was something I saw while googling) mentioned childhood obesity stats, and they were much lower than in the US. So I think the stats in Russia (however they’re measured) are skewed by people who “let themselves go” after reaching a certain age.

One thing that’s unfortunately true – as Russia becomes more prosperous, the situation will get worse. I saw something about increased obesity in E. Europe being linked to more people having cars and driving all over the place. This may have an impact on kids as well. My anecdote about this also goes back to my school days – most field trips that we took involved the whole class walking to the destination (e.g., the TYuZ theater), and at first the distances and pace were daunting for a little American boy. Also, P.E. was fairly serious, and our P.E. teacher (a particularly dedicated guy) even organized after-school workout sessions for kids who wanted or needed more. I recall a weekend distance run of some sort that the whole school was expected to turn out for, and we jogged along under signs displaying our grade and class letter (e.g., 4B). The only time we went on a field trip on a bus that I recall was when we went far away to the suburbs (my mom was banned from chaperoning that trip at the last minute, since it was to a “closed” zone) to learn about drawing maps and using a compass, which was quite a useful field trip.

I haven’t had much direct experience with Russian public schools in the past 20 years, but my guess is that kids are either (at schools with less organized/well-to-do parents & teachers) not going on as many field trips or (at schools with more organized/well-to-do parents) going on trips on rented buses.

Finally, as consuming/shopping is made easier, people won’t get the workout they used to get from walking around the rynok or hitting the meat store, the bread store, then the fruit/vegetable store, etc. (and maybe standing in line at each of them) – they’ll just go to the hypermarket.

“Fitness” and related clubs, gear, etc. are popular in Moscow, but that’s because people there can afford these things, so the supply is there. Not sure that this is the case in other places. A popular activity that a bunch of my Moscow friends engaged in was regular soccer games (usually indoors) with friends, but in an urban area (or in the winter) that requires having money to rent space to play. So maybe it will become a class thing like it is in the US.

Sean, when I mentioned waxing, I didn’t mean to suggest that I was disturbed about it – to each his own, and some people are just naturally un-hairy and don’t have to wax to get that look. I’m certainly not one of those Americans (though I have encountered some) who think that collective nudity in the banya is cringe-inducing – the banya is one of the things I miss most about Russia. I’ve even rocked tight bathing suits in Russia (you just try buying any other kind outside of Moscow), though not of the barely-there speedo variety.

And Wally, your remark about boot-like footwear resonated with me! I used to wear 6″ boots all the time, even in the summer. It was the #1 thing my future mother-in-law remembered after meeting me for the first time – “don’t his feet get hot”? And now I wear sandals in the summertime. As for shorts, I didn’t usually feel out-of-place wearing them in Moscow, although it’s true that older men still don’t really wear them unless they’re working on their dacha plot or something. I even sported shorts in Central Asia once I got sick of my Russo-looking linen slacks (quite comfy, but in 35-degree heat even they were too hot), but then as a white man I looked “foreign” there with or without shorts.

To Jason’s point about cheaper food being more fattening in the US, I’d say the same is happening in Russia – food for the masses (Kroshka Kartoshka, Teremok, Russkoe Bistro, not to mention McD’s and local semi-knockoffs like Rostik’s) is not good for you, and the rural equivalent – fried potatoes and pel’meni /varenniki with extra-thick sour cream – is no better. I personally don’t think it has much to do with self-restraint and has more to do with education and resources, but who knows.

I will admit I am one of those Americans that will never understand the banya. It’s just so “Roman” and anachronistic. Then again, I never liked the communal showers in locker rooms either. There just something awkward and unsettling about the male form. I don’t mean to get any further off topic, but you take any body part on a woman, take a picture of it, and then frame it and you have art. Do it on a man, and you have a picture of meat.

The notion of obesity being tied to economic status came from my riding my bike to work over a number of years. Over the years, I have managed to ride through a majority of the neighborhoods in this town of some 250,000 people. Its simply been my experience that I see more fat people in the poorer neighborhoods than in the wealthy neighborhoods.

Out here in the midwest, there isn’t any “structural poverty” like there may be in the inner cities of America’s larger metropolises. As a result, if you are poor, it is because you are lazy. There are plenty of jobs, you just have to be willing to work. I know a number of guys who only have a high school education who make more than me, and I have a good job with BS and MS in civil engineering.

Basically, it takes a lot of self control and motivation to keep from getting fat in America. Everything is working against you from fast food, snack food, personal vehicles, automation, etc. You have to make a concentrated effort to keep your weight under control and you have to be religious about it.

“but you take any body part on a woman, take a picture of it, and then frame it and you have art. Do it on a man, and you have a picture of meat.”

If you are a heterosexual man…

Oh, and as far as kids go, yeah they are all fatties now a days. I am also amazed by how many kids, from kindergarten to high school, are sporting fat rolls now. It wasn’t like that when I was a kid. But then Atari 2600’s were still rare and computers were useless for anything but writing term papers.

I find that the correlation between child obesity and class is switched for kids, the rich kids are generally more apt to be fat and the poor kids more apt to be thin.

I think it is a well established fact that with a country’s economic improvements comes obesity. Certain parts of China are experiencing rapid fattening of its population as they are exposed to richer food, in greater quantities, much of it convenience food. When people are no longer required to carry out manual labour on a bowl of rice, they inevitably get porkier.

Japan experienced a similar phenomenon, and Korea is concerned about it too. It is no surprise that the US, as the richest country in the world, is also the porkiest by most measures. I have yet to visit a country where the population isn’t getting fatter, so that Russians are getting fatter as their economic situation improves should be expected.

For the American audience, here’s a TV schedule for the upcoming IAAF Champisonships which start today:

http://www.usatf.org/events/2007/IAAFWorldOutdoorChampionships/TVSchedule.asp

Tim’s point about progress in other countries is alarmingly correct.

Lyndon, the Moscow reference I made related to what someone else said.

Sean, those studies on obese kids indicate that many of them will likely remain overweight in adulthood.

Despite nationwide health issues, Russia still cranks out great athletes. This is indicative of the jock culture of the physically talented being perked to workout unlike those (the majority) who aren’t world class athletes.

The point about city folk (specifically Muscovites and New Yorkers) often seeming to be more physically fit relates to socio-economics. The wealthier among us often eat and live healthier.

In the US, people on average are working longer hours at sedentary jobs. This makes working out more difficult. Few among us can regularly get a solid 4-5 hours of sleep, followed by a 10 hour or more work day, capped with a comprehensive workout.

I belong to several rec. facilities. Over the years, the use at these facilities has declined. The US had its exercise boom about the time of Frank Shorter’s marathon win at the 1972 Olympics. Many Americans took up running, tennis and high impact aerobics. Many of them blew their joints out and quit working out. A related correlation pertains to how fitness has been offered at the public school level. By the mid 19 seventies, public schools enhanced their gym class periods. In 1979, my high school had gym classes on a daily basis. Now, I read where some gym classes are cut altogether from the public school curriculum. I recently found out that my high school no longer has 5 day a week gym classes.

I read an article in the Atlantic Monthly that maintained American obesity is a function of increased wealth: restaurants serves 3 times larger/more caloric portions than people serve at home, so once you start going out to dinner at the local diner a couple times a week, the fat piles up.

I agree with what people have said about walking here — and in many families, better eating habits without sodas and chips and crap. Minzdrav just banned soda and chip machines from schools, and that’s good — don’t get them started. I still can’t quite figure out how teens can drink as much beer as they do and stay slim — perhaps it is because they are taking the metro and walking several miles a day, and not hopping into cars.

Yes, in general Russian men (and women) are more European stylish than us Americans. You guys forgot to mention cologne: men here wear it in big doses.

I know you may be more interested in concepts of male beauty, but on female beauty — this is changing to the more Western notion of thin and lanky. I still know men who like women soft and round (“You’ll lie on a board in your grave — in this life, you want to lie on something soft.”)

I think that in general Russians are less body-conscious than we Americans are. Maybe it comes from communal living, rather spartan conditions at dachas, and of course the banya, where you see all kinds of body types in all ages. There seems to be a distinction between “naked body” and “sexual naked body.” In the bath house, it’s just naked bodies. When changing out of your swimsuit on the beach or river bank (sometimes under a towel, sometimes with just your back(side) to the crowds), that’s just naked body. At the gynecologist’s you aren’t left alone to disrobe and cover yourself with the dumb paper thing — you just strip as the doctor chats with you. I think this is very healthy.

As per viewing the IAAF World Championships, here’s another link:

http://osaka2007.iaaf.org/index.html

On the seeming trend of American men being less formal with their general clothing selection: that can be related to the discussed super size factor.

Someone on the hefty side might be more inlined to not want to be as showy about themself.

It seems that the availability of fitted suits has declined in America, from where it had been in the early 19 eighties.

On the socio-economics of super sizing, I was at two sold out Yankee games recently. The seat for one of the games was in the left field bleacher seats at $10 a head and the other at the corp. field box field level pricing at $50. The bleacher crowd was noticeably heavier. Throughout the game, many of them stuffed themselves with hot dogs and other fine American cuisine. In comparison, the corp. box field lever crowd was trimmer and didn’t par take as much in eating. Some of them brown bagged impressive hero sandwiches.

Likewise, the food stores at American Indian reservations typically have the least healthiest of foods available. Much like the over salted government issued cheese given to po folk in duh poorest of hoods.

BTW, the width of seats at newer stadiums has increased from that of such facilities built decades prior.

There should be a hyphen between “sold” and “out” in the first sentence.

“Partake” is one word.

It’s “da poorest of hoods,” not “duh poorest of hoods.” There should also be hyphens between “over” and “salted” and “government” and “issued.” Also, the sentence contains no verb.

In the prevous post, it is “nineteen eighties” or “1980s.” There is no such thing as the 19 eighties.

Grammar Naziing for the apparent reason of not having something to substantively offer that’s related to the discussion. As this is an informal discussion, I don’t care if the “Naziing” is off.

The first sentence is missing a verb.

He does it again with his off topic selective nitpicking.

The “editor” who insisted that “there’re” isn’t valid shorthand for “there are”.

On the seeming trend of American men being less formal with their general clothing selection:

I have no idea what has caused this, but I do know that when American companies implement a smart casual policy, the entire workforce walk about dressed as golfers.

As a Brit, I walk about in double cuffed shirt with cufflinks and a tie right up to my throat complete with tie-pin – even in the Dubai summer heat. It used to drive the Americans potty when I refused to take my tie off.

Yes, Americans seem to value comfort over style. I’ve been rather Russified and tend to “dress up” more than my compatriots. I remember being asked to an American party, putting on some kind of black dress, make up, jewellery — and when I got there, everyone — men and women — were in torn jeans and T-shirts. Russians may be utterly comfortable at home or at the dacha — torn sweat pants, ratty T-shirt, slippers that have seen better days — but if they go out, they dress up. They find Americans odd dressers.

Wasn’t always the case. Footage of baseball games from the 19 fifties and before show how many dressed up for such an event. A point noted to me by some elders.

Of late, many NY firms have dropped the casual Friday look. Still, many others have an every day “neat” casual dress look. This latter scenario allows for just about everything except jeans, sneakers, t-shirts, sandals and sweats. Back in the 19 eighties, despite wearing the mandatory tie, at one employer, I got heck for wearing short sleave button and collar dress shirts.

Some realism of the opposite sex, circa 1979 (follow link to link):

http://www.russiatoday.ru/features/news/13591

Contrary to what some say, RTTV does some good work.

Should’ve read as: Some realism of sorts…

Seeing how this thread has focused on realism and fashion.