Comments on: Nashi’s Anti-Brenton Campaign http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/ Russia Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:04:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: f. kriukov http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1138 f. kriukov Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:45:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1138 >>Content has changed, structure hasn't. Oligarchs and KGB thugs replaced obkomy i genseki.<br /><br />And have you heard this one:<br /><br />"Did you know that Ivanov won a car in the state lottery?"<br /><br />"Yeah, except it was Rabinowitz, not Ivanov, 5 rubles, not a car, poker, not lottery, and he didn't win, he lost."<br /><br />Everything else is the same. :) >>Content has changed, structure hasn’t. Oligarchs and KGB thugs replaced obkomy i genseki.

And have you heard this one:

“Did you know that Ivanov won a car in the state lottery?”

“Yeah, except it was Rabinowitz, not Ivanov, 5 rubles, not a car, poker, not lottery, and he didn’t win, he lost.”

Everything else is the same. :)

]]> By: Cyrill http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1137 Cyrill Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:07:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1137 >>? ? ?????? ??? ??-????????: ??????, ????????, ??????? ? ??????? ?? ????????. ??-??. :)<br /><br />Content has changed, structure hasn't. Oligarchs and KGB thugs replaced obkomy i genseki.<br /><br />As for sausage - I spent quite a bit of time there tasting hunting for sausage. Variety is amazing; although they all taste the same:-)<br /><br />FREDERIK: things like that are happening regularly on university campi in the US - speakers hackled. It is a natural state of mind of students and young people in general - shut unfamiliar or challenging speech up. >>? ? ?????? ??? ??-????????: ??????, ????????, ??????? ? ??????? ?? ????????. ??-??. :)

Content has changed, structure hasn’t. Oligarchs and KGB thugs replaced obkomy i genseki.

As for sausage – I spent quite a bit of time there tasting hunting for sausage. Variety is amazing; although they all taste the same:-)

FREDERIK: things like that are happening regularly on university campi in the US – speakers hackled. It is a natural state of mind of students and young people in general – shut unfamiliar or challenging speech up.

]]> By: Anonymous http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1132 Anonymous Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:26:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1132 Dear Frederik: In a FREE society I can scream if I want to or do anything else which is not prohibited by law. If I feel like sitting down for an intelligent discussion with arguments, I can do that also. That means being POLITE, it does NOT equal to free society, like you said.<br />Oh, and by the way, if you or Brenton aren't happy about "harrasment" or whatever, there's always that good ol' thing called COURT! Dear Frederik: In a FREE society I can scream if I want to or do anything else which is not prohibited by law. If I feel like sitting down for an intelligent discussion with arguments, I can do that also. That means being POLITE, it does NOT equal to free society, like you said.
Oh, and by the way, if you or Brenton aren’t happy about “harrasment” or whatever, there’s always that good ol’ thing called COURT!

]]> By: f. kriukov http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1129 f. kriukov Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:57:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1129 Well, Frederik, I hate to disappoint you, but Russian democracy is quite indecent. It's violent, dirty, mean-spirited and often rather hysterical. C'est la vie. And even though coherent critiques are preferrable to heckling, both are quite acceptable means of people's democratic expression. Totalitarianism is a theoretical construct of little practical significance, but authoritarianism begins when heckling of critics is done by government agents in prisons, rather than by youths who have nothing better to do with their time.<br /><br />I really don't know where you got the idea that youth movements are supposed to be anti-system or anti-nationalistic. Youth movements in reality are quite reactionary -- they protest against their parents' generation. If the parents were anti-system and anti-nationalistic (such as the situation in Russia in late 1980s-1990s), then where does it leave modern youths? Is it a surprise they tend toward patriotism or even nationalism? But don't worry, the youth of the next decade or later will go back to the stereotype you desire. Well, Frederik, I hate to disappoint you, but Russian democracy is quite indecent. It’s violent, dirty, mean-spirited and often rather hysterical. C’est la vie. And even though coherent critiques are preferrable to heckling, both are quite acceptable means of people’s democratic expression. Totalitarianism is a theoretical construct of little practical significance, but authoritarianism begins when heckling of critics is done by government agents in prisons, rather than by youths who have nothing better to do with their time.

I really don’t know where you got the idea that youth movements are supposed to be anti-system or anti-nationalistic. Youth movements in reality are quite reactionary — they protest against their parents’ generation. If the parents were anti-system and anti-nationalistic (such as the situation in Russia in late 1980s-1990s), then where does it leave modern youths? Is it a surprise they tend toward patriotism or even nationalism? But don’t worry, the youth of the next decade or later will go back to the stereotype you desire.

]]> By: f. kriukov http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1128 f. kriukov Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:42:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1128 <i>Then why try to curb that financial support? </i> -- you mean, why make them pay income tax on that financial support? Why not? Is that wrong?<br /><br /><i>Of course, ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????, ? ??? ? ?????? ??? ??-???????? :-)</i> -- FBI says there were 2,731 anti-Black hate crimes in the US in 2004 (out of 7,649 total), with 3,475 victims. ? ? ?????? ??? ??-????????: ??????, ????????, ??????? ? ??????? ?? ????????. ??-??. :)<br /><br />But the real point of the joke was a hint to avoid attempts to justify the Brit's inane accusations with cliches from internal Russian political discourse. The British ambassador is a fool, and foolishness of some Russians doesn't justify his shortcomings. He's an official (moreover, a diplomat) who has to watch his language, which regular people don't have to do. Then why try to curb that financial support? — you mean, why make them pay income tax on that financial support? Why not? Is that wrong?

Of course, ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????, ? ??? ? ?????? ??? ??-???????? :-) — FBI says there were 2,731 anti-Black hate crimes in the US in 2004 (out of 7,649 total), with 3,475 victims. ? ? ?????? ??? ??-????????: ??????, ????????, ??????? ? ??????? ?? ????????. ??-??. :)

But the real point of the joke was a hint to avoid attempts to justify the Brit’s inane accusations with cliches from internal Russian political discourse. The British ambassador is a fool, and foolishness of some Russians doesn’t justify his shortcomings. He’s an official (moreover, a diplomat) who has to watch his language, which regular people don’t have to do.

]]> By: Anonymous http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1127 Anonymous Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:23:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1127 @f. kriukov<br /><br />Off course you are right, one should allways think harder before posting. So now i tried thinking again <br /><br />First i need to say that i'm pretty sure I didnt make any inane accusations about "professional" psychological pressure - so i guess the pathetic-thing was not aimed at me, which off course does not imply that I (together with the ambassador) should not try to learn to deal with russian democracy (i try i try - why do you think i read among diffenrent things this blog). <br /><br />Second what i did try to do was to make the pretty obvious point that theres a very substantiel diffenrence between voicing a coherent critique in a speech and simply trying to keep a person from voicing critique through heckling. So yes while yelling silly slogans and staging pickets is and indeed should be an inalienable part of every decenct democracy, then trying to silence critical voices by harrasment is (or at least should not be) a part of a "decent" democracy. <br /><br />(And in my very humble and subjective opinion the fact that its a youth movement trying to silence voices critical of the "system" only makes it so much more disturbing - but that might just be me that has this pathetic idea about youth movements being anti-system, anti-nationlistic)<br /><br />But back to the point, theres a difference between voicing your critical opinions in a coherent manner(which could be the first part of that wonderfull thing called dialogue) and then obstructing the voicing of critical opinions not by arguments but by heckling and harrasment (which could be the first part of that not so wonderful thing callad totalitarianism).<br /><br />I only tried to state these not very controversial points since at least two of the earlier comments didn't seem to be able to see the difference. <br /><br />All the best<br />Frederik @f. kriukov

Off course you are right, one should allways think harder before posting. So now i tried thinking again

First i need to say that i’m pretty sure I didnt make any inane accusations about “professional” psychological pressure – so i guess the pathetic-thing was not aimed at me, which off course does not imply that I (together with the ambassador) should not try to learn to deal with russian democracy (i try i try – why do you think i read among diffenrent things this blog).

Second what i did try to do was to make the pretty obvious point that theres a very substantiel diffenrence between voicing a coherent critique in a speech and simply trying to keep a person from voicing critique through heckling. So yes while yelling silly slogans and staging pickets is and indeed should be an inalienable part of every decenct democracy, then trying to silence critical voices by harrasment is (or at least should not be) a part of a “decent” democracy.

(And in my very humble and subjective opinion the fact that its a youth movement trying to silence voices critical of the “system” only makes it so much more disturbing – but that might just be me that has this pathetic idea about youth movements being anti-system, anti-nationlistic)

But back to the point, theres a difference between voicing your critical opinions in a coherent manner(which could be the first part of that wonderfull thing called dialogue) and then obstructing the voicing of critical opinions not by arguments but by heckling and harrasment (which could be the first part of that not so wonderful thing callad totalitarianism).

I only tried to state these not very controversial points since at least two of the earlier comments didn’t seem to be able to see the difference.

All the best
Frederik

]]> By: Cyrill http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1125 Cyrill Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:05:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1125 >>Which just happens to be exactly true. And is not equivalent to claiming that the "opposition is controlled by some sinister and clandestine organizations".<br /><br />Then why try to curb that financial support? <br /><br />>>Have you heard the one about "? ? ??? ?????? ???????!"? :) <br /><br />Of course, ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????, ? ??? ? ?????? ??? ??-???????? :-) >>Which just happens to be exactly true. And is not equivalent to claiming that the “opposition is controlled by some sinister and clandestine organizations”.

Then why try to curb that financial support?

>>Have you heard the one about “? ? ??? ?????? ???????!”? :)

Of course, ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?????, ? ??? ? ?????? ??? ??-???????? :-)

]]> By: f. kriukov http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1124 f. kriukov Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:46:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1124 <i>Isn't it exacty what Russians and Russian authorities claim very often?</i> -- there are 142 mln Russians. So Russians "very often" claim absolutely anything and everything. Same as any other large pool of people. As for the Russian authorities, being an absolutely evil organization bent on destroying the world, they often imply that much of the "liberal" opposition is financed from abroad. Which just happens to be exactly true. And is not equivalent to claiming that the "opposition is controlled by some sinister and clandestine organizations".<br /><br />Have you heard the one about "? ? ??? ?????? ???????!"? :) Isn’t it exacty what Russians and Russian authorities claim very often? — there are 142 mln Russians. So Russians “very often” claim absolutely anything and everything. Same as any other large pool of people. As for the Russian authorities, being an absolutely evil organization bent on destroying the world, they often imply that much of the “liberal” opposition is financed from abroad. Which just happens to be exactly true. And is not equivalent to claiming that the “opposition is controlled by some sinister and clandestine organizations”.

Have you heard the one about “? ? ??? ?????? ???????!”? :)

]]> By: Cyrill http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1122 Cyrill Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:18:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1122 >>How pathetic can one get to imply that his opposition is controlled by some sinister and clandestine organizations?<br /><br />Isn't it exacty what Russians and Russian authorities claim very often? >>How pathetic can one get to imply that his opposition is controlled by some sinister and clandestine organizations?

Isn’t it exacty what Russians and Russian authorities claim very often?

]]> By: f. kriukov http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/12/09/nashis-anti-brenton-campaign/comment-page-1/#comment-1120 f. kriukov Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:09:00 +0000 http://seansrussiablog.org/?p=241#comment-1120 "Other Russia" was not made up of genuine ("system") opposition. It was made up of extremists on both ends of the spectrum, who favor overturning the system (i.e., a revolution). A foreign country supporting revolutionary forces in another country most certainly constitutes a hostile act.<br /><br />Frederik: you should also think harder when you post. It is an inalienable part of democracy to express your dissenting opinion by staging pickets, rallies and chanting silly slogans. The British ambassador (and you too) should learn to deal with Russian democracy, rather than make inane accusations about "professional" psychological pressure. How pathetic can one get to imply that his opposition is controlled by some sinister and clandestine organizations? “Other Russia” was not made up of genuine (“system”) opposition. It was made up of extremists on both ends of the spectrum, who favor overturning the system (i.e., a revolution). A foreign country supporting revolutionary forces in another country most certainly constitutes a hostile act.

Frederik: you should also think harder when you post. It is an inalienable part of democracy to express your dissenting opinion by staging pickets, rallies and chanting silly slogans. The British ambassador (and you too) should learn to deal with Russian democracy, rather than make inane accusations about “professional” psychological pressure. How pathetic can one get to imply that his opposition is controlled by some sinister and clandestine organizations?

]]>